Our son is still in his addiction...Kratom

Discussion in 'Substance Abuse' started by lovemysons, Nov 12, 2019.

  1. lovemysons

    lovemysons Well-Known Member

    Hi all...
    It's been a long while since I've posted. I came here today with a heavy heart after reading lovemyson1 post about her son passing...there but for the grace of God go I. Yes, it could be any of us. I hope all will wrap their loving arms around her in support.

    Just wanted to post a brief update that we are still allowing our middle son to live with us lest he be homeless like he was for a number of years.

    He is working a couple of days a week and insists on going to the smoke shop not only for his vaping but for Kratom. I know very little about this substance but am concerned!
    Seems his leaning towards addictive substances is never far away.

    He can't work very many hours for health reasons but he does work enough to afford this Kratom. Do any of y'all have experience with yours using this? Should I be worried?
  2. BusynMember

    BusynMember Well-Known Member

    My daughter takes it. i am not happy. She never takes anything unless it gets you high. If there is safe Kratom and unsafe Kratom, she is taking unsafe Kratom.

    There is talk of banning kratom.

    Kratom is unregulated so who knows what is put into it or if it is safe? Kay got very sick the first time she took it. Threw up all day. But took it the next day.
  3. RN0441

    RN0441 100% better than I was but not at 100% yet

    Ugh. I don't know anything about it but it doesn't sound good. It sounds like your son is still struggling with addiction.

    My son is also but now it's alcohol but he did see a doctor yesterday to get something for depression as he says so he "won't drink to feel better".

    What is wrong with these people that they can't just cope with life!!!
  4. BusynMember

    BusynMember Well-Known Member

    It's the illness. They are sick.
  5. lovemysons

    lovemysons Well-Known Member

    I agree...they are sick. They can't just deal with life on life's terms. Never satisfied with what "is". Definitely restless irritable and discontent!

    I don't know where my sons Kratom addiction will lead. He always takes too much of everything! And Busy yes...always to get high!

    He took too much vyvance (I think that was the name of it) rxd by his psychiatric doctor and had to be hospitalized again awhile back. I was SO worried then because he was also taking a very expensive, albeit free to him, medication for Hep C which he had contracted after shooting up Meth when he was homeless! I wasn't sure we were going to get him his daily dose of medicine in at that time. And he had to take it everyday for 3 months in order to be cured.

    My husband and I decided awhile back to just let our son live with us the rest of his life. He will not launch...either because he can't or won't.
    And I can't live emotionally healthy when he is in the streets.
    As long as he doesn't act out he can stay...but I can't fix him.

    I have tried everything with both of my sons and one is attending AA now and runs a multi million dollar company while he and wife are raising 3 beautiful thriving girls. The other lives with us...his estranged wife is living with our other 3 beautiful grandchildren in deplorable conditions at her mother's house. Sons mother in law is a nice lady but a hoarder...always too many untrained animals, filthy house, everything broken and in disarray, boxes everywhere etc. No structure and few rules. My husband had to drive an hour to their house 3 times last week to get our 7 year old granddaughter to school! She refuses to go...hides under beds, locks doors, bites screams etc all the way to the councelors office at school! Mom and son's mother in law can't make her go! ??? She's 7! Can you just imagine where this child will be when she's 14-15 if they give up and can't make her go to school at 7!?! Anyway I digress... but it is my son and his also immature estranged wife that should be dealing with this mess properly not aging grandparents!


  6. WiseChoices

    WiseChoices Active Member

    I don't know anything about Kratom but from own personal experience, a drug is a drug is a drug. It does not matter what substance one is addicted to , it all ends in the same place as addiction is a progressive and fatal disease. The only place I know that can arrest the disease one day at a time is AA or NA.

    As addicts, we will substitute and play games with our heads about it. I will only use Kratom and not shoot meth again. But the problem is that it's still feeding the disease, creating dependence. And it's just a place holder until we pick up the drug of choice again. It is inevitable in my opinion. My drug of choice was alcohol. My games said "i will only have 2 drinks" "I will leave the bar at midnight" "I will only drink beer". - and could never do it.

    The mental component of the mental health disorder addicting are the cognitive distortions: Cognitive distortion - Wikipedia

    And the repetitive thoughts , irritability, discontent and restlessness. We need to soothe our minds, find serenity. Alcohol and drugs temporarily shut this state down - hence they are they solution, not the problem. The problem is the mind.
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  7. BusynMember

    BusynMember Well-Known Member

    This is why my twelve step groups tell us that once you are an addict you always are and that one drink or toke will cause relapse. That the only way to arrest the disease is abstinence from any substance, including alcohol and pot. I don't know if it's true, but that is what they say in the meetings, especially the sober addicts who talk to us.
  8. RN0441

    RN0441 100% better than I was but not at 100% yet

    Busy I think you are right. I have heard that also.

    But it doesn't mean that our young adults will do this. I will settle for Harm Management.
  9. BusynMember

    BusynMember Well-Known Member

    Oh, you are right! They may not!

    But I do hear from addicts on the young side that have not touched anything for a decade. So it is possible.

    But something is WAY better than nothing. So minimizing is much better doing nothing. I would be thrilled if Kay had sober moments. Or months. Or anything. I wish she were where your son is at.
  10. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    I am in this place, too, and I am reassessing the costs and benefits. I am wondering if it's worth it, or even the correct choice morally, if I am only enabling my son.
  11. RN0441

    RN0441 100% better than I was but not at 100% yet

    I think that we have to be realistic even if we don't like it.

    I cannot live in a fantasy world where my son never drinks. I do not think that he will choose to do that.

    I can ask him to make promises TO HIMSELF that he will not drink alone and that he will drink in moderation.

    Right now HE has chosen not to drink at all. I did not choose this for him but I am happy that he made this choice as being on Zoloft and drinking does not go hand in hand.

    My coworker is on an antidepressant also and has been for years and she drinks occasionally. She used to drink a lot when she was in a bad marriage years ago. A lot. When we first met she had only said "I used to have a problem with drinking". To me that meant that she was an alcoholic. When I got to know her better she told me the whole story of the abusive relationship she was in and didn't have the strength to get out of etc. Now she is in a happy marriage. She can drink socially and be okay.

    I think sometimes abuse of drugs or alcohol can be situational too. I know that there is addiction too but I'm just trying to take a deeper dive on this very complex subject.
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  12. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    'When I was a very young woman I put myself through university working as a waitress. I drank heavily after work as a part of that lifestyle with co-workers. I was having fun (I thought). When I no longer was in that lifestyle I stopped drinking and drank only very moderately, if that.

    I think each approach has its good merits, harm reduction and abstinence.

    My son just called me. He will return to the big metro where he had been living before he came back here. He recognizes that this is not working. While he is casting this all as his wanting to protect us from the effects of his poor choices, I think that he truly wants to be homeless in the Metro.

    He feels he has more support there and his life is better. He says he'll come back here when he has a plan. goals, and a way to handle the recurring problems. I think it's just he wants to leave. I have to accept it. What choice do I have?
  13. RN0441

    RN0441 100% better than I was but not at 100% yet

    Absolutely out of your control. He is so very lucky that he has you and a home to go to if he so chooses.
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  14. in a daze

    in a daze Well-Known Member

    Hi LMS. Hugs to you, from a mother of a son who also will probably never launch. I am grateful that he lives in an apartment and not with us, as he can be difficult to deal with.

    a few years ago he ran up 3000.00 $ credit card bill because of his Kratom addiction. He ended up going to the hospital to detox off it. They gave him incrementally smaller doses of OxyContin to wean off the stuff.

    Presently he works for his uncle in the law office on Saturdays. Applies for jobs. Has an interview once in a while but never gets the job.

    Maybe it is less expensive now. Seems like it’s going mainstream as this is the second time in a short period I’ve seen it as a topic on CD forum.
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  15. Kathy813

    Kathy813 Well-Known Member Staff Member

    It sounds to me like your friend was never an alcoholic but was drinking to numb pain. I was re-watching the West Wing recently on Netflix and the chief of staff is a recovering alcoholic. He explained it to another character that an alcoholic can never stop at one drink. Of course, this was a fictional character but I do think it makes sense when you look at it that way. There is a difference between abusing alcohol temporarily and being a true alcoholic.

    I personally believe that an alcoholic or addict can't drink or use in moderation. I have seen too many start with one drink and sliding back into up shooting heroin or taking benzos. I asked my daughter why she would stay sober for relatively long periods of time ( 9 months) and then relapse. Her answer was that after being sober for a while she would convince herself that one drink wouldn't hurt. So she would have a drink and be fine so then she would think if she could handle one then she could handle two and so on until she slid back into a full blown relapse of drugs and alcohol.

    I know that there are other schools of thought.

  16. lovemysons

    lovemysons Well-Known Member

    Thank you All for your responses! I appreciate your experiences and perspectives.

    Now, I have a question about an AA term..."It takes what it takes."

    So yesterday husband and I were walking out the door when son says, "Can I go? I need to stop by my smoke shop!"
    Well I got furious and said, No! In fact I was ready to just stay home at that point.
    Anyway husband and I did leave and on our way husband said "It takes what it takes... Every last drop or drug."

    But I wrestle with this...I mean do we really participate in our son's demise? Or is dear husband right? Should we just allow our son to find out the hard way once again that this will likely lead to a hospital stay or worse?
    You would think after 15 years of dealing with both of our sons addictions that I would know the answer to this! But I don't.

    Son is now 30 years old. Has accomplished very little in life...he does have 3 beautiful children which we adore!

    Who is right? What is right?
    I'm confused!
  17. BusynMember

    BusynMember Well-Known Member

    I am in Al Anon.

    I don't question my daughter about what she takes. i am fortunate that for various reasons, some my own enabling, she doesn't live with us and hasn't since around 20. It would not be possible. My way of looking at it is that we CANT stop them, but we don't have to help. I wouldn't give Kay cash ever. If she wants to buy drugs SHE funds it, not me. I wouldn't drop her off by a smoke shop where she can buy pot. She can walk to get her beloved pot. No rides. No money. No help.

    Other than this, I agree with Al Anon that we can do nothing to stop them. They must stop them.

    A recovered addict in one of my groups quit a bad drug addiction in his late 30s and has been clean since. Now his child is an addict. He is homeless and almost died several times and was in the hospital recently. He flew out to see his hospitalized son who was in an induced coma and helped him calm down when he woke up, but did not want him home and, although he cried at the meeting while telling us, he said that he can't help him. That, being an addict himself, he knows that the worst thing and most futile thing he can do is to "help.". His son listens to nobody anyway and is now physically sick too. He also has a Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI) from falling off a motorcycle while high so his thinking is both drugged and tainted by his Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI). His illness is serious but he won't see a doctor.

    I listen to sober addict's wisdom more than anyone. Who knows better? This man often tells us he quit after reaching his rock bottom. That he would not have quit if he had not or if his parents had helped him.

    The man also says that his son needs to decide to quit or he won't. His son is in his 30s too. This man had tears in his eyes when he said he can not keep his son alive, that he could die. That he almost had died this time yet his son seemed not to care one bit. Almost dying was not his rock bottom. He may not have one.

    At this time the young man's sibling is trying to save him, but the results were the hospital. The grim truth is that a better life has to come from them, but we don't need to help them in their dangerous lives by making it easier.

    I send you my prayers and love.
  18. lovemysons

    lovemysons Well-Known Member

    Thank you for the prayers and love, Busy. Thank you also for sharing this man's story with me. I understand what you're saying about we can't stop them but shouldn't help them...as noted our son too, may not have a rock bottom

    It's difficult...husband and I are recovered alcoholics. We both had bottoms and way too much to lose if we ever drank again. Son has nothing to lose but his own life and he has wrestled with suicide SO many times I can't even keep count! Sadly the medication I take for mental illness doesn't seem to work for him.

    We are not buying this Kratom though. He affords it with money he's earned from working a few days a week with husband.

    It's really difficult...you know you remember back in the day when people thought if a kid wants a cigarette just to buy them a pack and have them get sick, nauseous, a headache etc...and then they would never want another cigarette for the rest of their lives right? But I guess it's not the same for an addict.

    I know when I took my first drink at 9 yrs old while being babysat...it was the first drunk I ever had! Can you believe that? 9
    And by the time I was 13 I was drinking alone in my room. Sneaking moms alcohol. Mom didn't know any better...I was acting up on the way to a long drive to summer camp once. I remember her and her girlfriend bought me a 6 pack to calm me down. I couldn't have been more than 13-14 at the time. But she didn't know I had serious Bipolar/mental illness problems too.
    I finally quit for the first time when dear husband got sober but I hadn't quit for good for me yet...I drank again 13 years later while in a full blown manic episode! It was a very scary time. Haven't had a drink since. Oh and my deceased bio dad died of complications due to his alcoholism and smoking. Also Dear husbands mother died early from liver failure due to her drinking as well. So my sons have a Very strong DNA line of addiction problems!!!

    What I see is one of my sons, the oldest, has too much to lose to go back to drinking and drugs...the other...this son that lives with us...has nothing to lose.
    And trust me if we put him out in the streets again he would just sit in a homeless community and drink or drug till he was either hospitalized or dead. And this is my fear. Like I said it's difficult and somewhat complicated.
    Dear husband and I Have been down this road...we tried so hard to help both of our sons get better by duel diagnosis rehab, jails, hospital, Dr, Therapist, wilderness program, prison, no contact etc...nothing has worked for this one of ours.
    It's very sad as he is actually my sweeter son...very loving heart!

    Goodness. I don't know.
  19. Triedntrue

    Triedntrue Well-Known Member

    It sounds like a very complicated family history and i am sure it adds even more worries right now. I know that no one on here doubts how much you have done for your sons or how much you love them. My son also has a kind heart. I think that sometimes adds to the problem. Prayers
  20. lovemysons

    lovemysons Well-Known Member

    Thank you Triedntrue...
    Yes...long family history particularly with alcohol. And yes even more difficult to understand when dear husband and I abstain. I won't even use NyQuil unless I think I'm dying from the Flu! And when I had a uterus ablation procedure several years ago, they wanted to give me a bottle of pain pills but I explained that I have addiction problems and only needed a few. I take it very seriously. It is a condition and I must be responsible for it! I wish my middle son felt the same.

    Copa...if you read this, I want you to know I totally hear you and am as perplexed by the homeless draw as you are! My son told me last week that he was thinking about visiting his old homeless community in California. Do what?
    I said, "Your grandmother is vacationing in France right now...you do NOT go on vacation to a homeless community!"
    The deprivation and self destruction all around...what in the world is he thinking???
    I don't get it! We live in a beautiful inviting home outside the city limits with mom and dad and 2 dogs that adore him a job his dad has provided etc etc etc but it is not enough! Someone help me understand. It just makes no sense. And he has always lived in a very clean environment too!

    Anyway...he is a mess! I'm so relieved my older son got it together and regularly attends AA. Daughter is still working on her Masters degree in...Family counseling and is also a licensed massage therapist.

    If I could help to get this one son to see the light...my life really would be complete!
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