Really struggling right now

Discussion in 'Parent Emeritus' started by Beta, Aug 25, 2019.

  1. Beta

    Beta Active Member

    I'm seeing a therapist tomorrow afternoon. I'll probably only go once a month because even at a hugely discounted fee, I really can't go more often. But I am struggling with depression, anxiety, sometimes wanting to just go to sleep and not wake up.
    Josh is still at my sisters (!), which is amazing. I really thought he'd be put out by now. But he has lost yet another job just in the last two weeks due to not going to work. I don't know how long they will allow him to stay.
    Over the last week and a half, I have not responded to his texts and calls until yesterday. Oh my...they have been so, so evil and hateful. He is so scary to me now.
    Here are some of what he has said to me:
    "I want to strangle u. I want to put my hands around your old wrinkly neck and choke you."
    "Your the devil, you and your husband. Evil white people just like the rest. Ur the devil and your a whore. It makes me sick what the two of you do under the name of religion."
    "Evil :censored2:."
    "Your a whore. I know that you get this and I know you see this. Your a foul white :censored2: and a whore and if I saw you right now I would f**cking hurt you and take whatever I could from you and ruin anything you had."
    "I will kill you for saying that sh*t."
    "Die in your sleep."

    Whew. He called my husband yesterday, and my husband answered the phone so that he could tell Josh that if Josh is not willing to get help and he's not willing to come here, that we want him to leave us alone and not contact us. My husband couldn't even get a word in. Josh would talk over him, telling him that we "owed" him what we "promised" (a car or money for one). He became foulmouthed, and my husband hung up on him. I texted him and told him the same thing. I also told him that he has until Monday afternoon to make a choice to speak to us respectfully and after that I'm blocking him. (I want to have his text messages until then to show the therapist what I'm dealing with). I begged him (again) to see that he is ill and needs to get help but as usual he denies that he is "crazy" as he puts it. I told him we have never said he is crazy and that he has a medical condition that affects the chemicals in his brain. I told him that he is destroying his life and that things are not going to get better until he gets help.
    I am at the end of my rope. He is killing my soul. I am begging God to intervene, to cause him to see that he is sick, but it doesn't seem to be happening. I can't keep doing this though. It's too much.
     
  2. Albatross

    Albatross Well-Known Member

    Oh Beta...Of course it is too much. Of course it is killing your soul. No one, NO ONE, should be subject to that verbal vomit.

    You should NOT have to listen to any of that. None of it. Not a single word of it. Not even for just a couple of days, or even a couple of seconds. He is physically threatening you and menacing you. He is doing it in the most hateful and vile ways imaginable...and exactly what is he implying, anyway? That if you gave him a car or some money, things would be "square" and he wouldn't make specific death threats anymore?

    I don't think either you or your husband should respond to any contact from Josh, I definitely don't think you should demand (or even allow) Josh to come to your home...and quite honestly I think you might want to call the police.

    I'm sorry if my comment is not helping you to feel better, but to my ears these are specific threats, and that is very concerning.

    IF you feel you must save the texts between now and Monday for your therapist's appointment, is there a way to block them from your view and forward them for your therapist's eyes only? (Sorry...not as tech-savvy as I should be...) If that's not possible, I think your therapist will get the gist of your situation from what he sent so far. Either way, I think you should block him immediately.

    Again, I don't intend my post to be alarming or upsetting, but no one should be subject to such cruel words and threats.
     
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  3. AppleCori

    AppleCori Well-Known Member

    Beta,

    You need to save those texts from your son, in case you need to get a restraining order at some point. You need to prepare yourself for any eventuality. Make sure your therapist documents this.

    Many of us have had to deal with mean texts, mails, and calls, but never anything as bad as the threats your son has sent. I am worried for you.

    At this point, Josh doesn’t seem interested in heading your way, but if he gets kicked out, he may. In fact, I fear for the safety of the people he lives with, should they anger him. He is seriously unstable and it sounds like irrational.

    I would share these texts with your sister and her husband, so that they know what they are dealing with. They probably haven’t seen this side of him.

    You and your husband need to think putting some safety precautions into place, just in case.

    Sorry that you have to go through this.

    Apple
     
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    Last edited: Aug 25, 2019
  4. BusynMember

    BusynMember Active Member

    If this were Kay, she would be blocked. There is no excuse,, not mental illness or being high, to threaten harm to anyone

    I am no hero. I let Kay get away with her threats although none were that violent. The way I have changed, today I would probably call the police and maybe get a restraining order. Josh is too sick in my opinion to be around you. How, God bless us, do we know somebody won't act on such things?

    I have no magic words or solutions. If this were me, my first priority would be the safety of the rest of the family. I am not sure about.my sister. I might feel morally obligated to show her what he wrote so that she can protect herself, if she feels the need. If he hurts her, you may feel terrible because there is not full disclosure.

    One thing I am learning slowly is that letting them get away with violent threats and and even violence against people because, of "mental illness," can be lethal for them and others.

    Most mentally ill people do not speak like that. If they do, they are taken out of society. It is illegal to make those types of threats. Why do we let them? We would not let anyone else address us with violent venom. Kay finally got dangerous against our son. She could have killed him if her aim had been better. She had been ramping up her verbal violence but we told ourselves she just needed help. I'm not so sure now that her long term tendency to frighten and harm us can be treated. We will never know. She will not get help. Nothing is wrong with her per Kay. It is us. It is that we kidnapped her from her birth country. Blah, blah, blah.

    We never allowed her in our house again after the incident with our son. This had not been the first time she tried to hurt somebody but we told ourselves she was sorry. Haha. Sure. We take that seriously now. She doesn't make violent threats because when she did after that, we called the police. Kids do not do this. It is way off the rails. For us, it is not tolerated anymore. I have other kids for comparison. Kay is a bully who can hurt us. Yes, maybe she hss depression, anxiety, borderline or even reactive attachment disorder.

    None of that makes it okay for her to hurt or threaten to hurt or kill anyone and we are finally in a place where she knows we will press charges if she does.

    I am called by my first name, called abusive, called sexual names and cussed out, but the days of Kay threatening harm are over. But we still will not let her into our home. For years she had to meet us at a restaurant to see us. We go to the park, or WENT to the park to see Jaden. Now she cut us off. I don't miss the circus. We only wonder what to do about Jaden. We are all discussing this. CPS is an option.

    Violent verbal talk is not okay and can be a percurser to actual violence. Not saying it is, but.....

    God bless you. Your plate is full. I am so sorry. Protect yourself please. You can protect yourselves, not fix your son. All we can change is ourselves.
     
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    Last edited: Aug 25, 2019
  5. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    Dear Beta: I haven't time to read the other posts right now but will do so later.

    This kind of talk is beyond the pale. It is both criminal and in my state (and I would guess everywhere) calls for immediate, emergency evaluation under 5150 criteria, danger to self or others, to be involuntarily admitted to a psychiatric hospital for at least 3 days or until he is stabilized. At least.

    This is dangerous.

    These kinds of threats you cannot deal with alone. These are direct threats of the intention to kill or cause great bodily harm. On a criminal level, this is felonious behavior. In my state this is called a "terrorist threat" and I have seen people go to prison for only this, for 3 years or so, minimum.

    What I am trying to say is that he can't be left on the rampage spouting this kind of stuff. It is dangerous for him, and dangerous for you.

    This is the time right now to call the police, and psychiatric emergency services in the community where he is living. I see no other option. If he is saying things about killing specific people, and exactly how he will do it, do you believe your sister is safe? In my state if somebody in my professional capacity told me these things I would be mandated to notify the police and to notify the intended victim. This is how serious this is, what he is doing.

    You have no more responsibility right now to protect Josh or to urge him to do the right thing. This is way beyond mothering and parenting. He is a threat to your safety and that of others. You are his identified target. In his words he wants to kill you. He has told you exactly how. This is the reality. This is the elephant in the room.

    It does not mean it will always be so. But this is what is so right now. And what must be responded to.

    I think I would call your sister, tell her what he wrote and what you are going to do so that they are prepared, and I would call the police and psychiatric emergency services. An alternative would be for your sister to bring him to Mental Health. But I think that it might be dangerous to confront him.

    Honestly. I don't see another alternative right now.

    I want to say this, too: I believe you should NOT be in any kind of communication with him. He should never be allowed to make these kinds of vile threats to you, in writing or verbally or to denounce and degrade you as he has. You do not help him by permitting this to go on. On the contrary.

    This is extremely traumatizing and dangerous. This has to stop.

    I am so, so sorry this is happening. I wish I saw this differently, but I don't.
     
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    Last edited: Aug 25, 2019
  6. WiseChoices

    WiseChoices Active Member

    The only response I would give is complete silence. Nobody gets to call me names or threaten me.
     
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  7. AppleCori

    AppleCori Well-Known Member

    Beta,

    I agree with Copa.

    These threats are specific, and very serious.

    The police should be informed, both of the threats and of his mental illness.

    This may be the only way he gets into a hospital and possibly gets some help. He is getting more and more unstable, and we don’t want to run the risk of him hurting someone.

    Very sorry that you have to deal with this.

    Apple
     
  8. Beta

    Beta Active Member

    Thank you all for your responses. I'm going to talk to my sister today if I can get a hold of her. I want to find out from her what her interactions with him have been like today and what she thinks his state of mind is. My husband is of the opinion that he's just blowing off steam. Back in the winter, he called the police in Denver to ask about having Josh picked up and was pretty much brushed off by the police officer he spoke to. I'm not sure what to do. I just want to proceed carefully here. Will keep you all posted and thank you for your prayers and (virtual) hugs.
     
  9. BusynMember

    BusynMember Active Member

    If you showed that text to the police in my place of living Josh could be arrested. It could be a terrorist threat. Showing evidence is more potent than telling what somebody said to you.

    Now the sad part. Jail is currently our only long term psychiatric hospitals for adults. To me Josh's words are dangerous and what is wrong with him, whether criminal or psychiatric or neurological or all of them, can not be fixed on a 72 hr. hold nor can he be held beyond that, except for jail. Jail!!!

    This is why we never called the police on Kay. We knew how mental healthcare is in the U.S.

    I think the sister, especially if kids live there or visit, or pets, should be read the text. I am not sure it serves Josh or anyone not to be frank about the threats. But I understand the fear of jail. Still.....something needs to happen in my opinion. He should not be out in the world with that type of thinking. Nobody needs or wants a tragedy.

    There are no good options. Shame on us.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2019
  10. AppleCori

    AppleCori Well-Known Member

    My mentally ill relative was held for several months in the psychiatric wing of a hospital on at least two different occasions in the last five or six years; then he was transferred into a mental health facility on both occasions where he stayed for several more months. The first time, he was aided in obtaining SSDI (he was a professional before his illness became worse). The second time, he was aided in getting into a group home situation.

    He had threatened people, which was what brought him to the attention of the authorities both times. Once a relative, and once a random stranger.

    It’s a difficult situation.
     
  11. Blindsided

    Blindsided Face the Sun

    I am in total agreement with Copacabana and everyone else who has warned against any contact.

    My daughter is vile as well, she has lost it and tried to hurt me because I tried to get her admitted, but she has never wanted me dead.

    I am worried for your safety.

    If you are unsure, call the mental health hotline or put in an emergency call to your therapist.

    Screenshot the texts. I save them in a folder I created and back them up and delete them so I dont have to see the thread everytime I receive texts.

    I hope you will update us. I am concerned.
     
  12. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    Dear Beta:

    I believe you are minimizing this situation and it is dangerous to you, to your son, and to others.
    I recognize that your sister has a background in psychology. I worked 30 years in psychiatry largely with people in prison with severe mental illness. Even with this background I would not assume that I had the wherewithal to deal with Josh in my home or to objectively understand and to evaluate the risk level so as to keep myself safe. I would only be able to make objective, good decisions and manage the situation if I had the backup of a secure facility and trained staff, or at least a professional relationship where I had no other responsibility except to the well-being of my patient and the community.

    To put your sister in the situation of endowing her with the responsibility to evaluate Josh's potential to harm is to force her to play Russian Roulette with her own life, with Josh's and with your own. If she believes she has the capacity to do all of this she is wrong. No single person does. Not in their private life and in their own home. Certainly, I do not have that capacity.
    That this police officer was wrong, irresponsible or lazy has absolutely no bearing on the rightness of what he did. Rest assured. No responsible police office or crisis worker could or would ignore or minimize what Josh has done. You have it in writing. Any police officer or mental health professional who ignored this would be in deep trouble. I urge you to not use this irresponsibility on the part of this officer as a means to avoid facing the reality you find yourself in.

    People are not allowed to blow off steam through threats of killing specific, other people, particularly if they have identified a plan, which Josh has. This is rising to a new, dangerous level. I pray that you see this in this light.

    Even if Josh is talking off of the top of his head, as your husband believes, and somebody could see into the future that nothing bad will come of his threats against you, this behavior still puts him at risk. He is a young man of color. Like my own son he is in danger of being stereotyped. Spouting out threats, or other aggressive behavior as a young man of color....in my mind puts my son at risk. Josh and my own son need to learn to keep themselves safe from misperceptions and misattributions of others. If they don't they risk danger. They must learn to control their behavior. What they say and do that triggers alarm, could put them in harm's way due to the perceptions of others over which they have no control.

    But all of this is leaving aside that YOU are his intended victim and you are the one who is specifically named and degraded by his verbal and written threats and assaults. How do you ignore this? How do you live with this? How is this for you? Do you have value or not? Does it matter or not that you be treated this way? How does your husband feel about the words your son uses against and about you? How would he feel if he was the target? How would anybody feel?

    Are you saying that it is good for Josh to repeatedly tell his mother he will kill her? Is it healthy for Josh to be allowed to repeatedly call you a whore? How are you helping him? I don't see how.

    I don't really have more to say than this. And I won't. I think this situation is as grave as any that I have encountered here on this forum.

    I have done this kind of work for 30 years as I said. When things rise to this level of threat and pathology, the situation becomes very attenuated. It is like being inside of a tunnel. And there is only one way to go. There are no options. Just to go forward with the right and responsible thing.

    I will say this: The right thing to do, to involve authorities and professionals I believe is the right thing for all of you. Certainly for Josh. And your sister and her family. And for you.

    You and your husband believe there are options. I think you are playing with fire. I pray that this will resolve safely for all of you.
    ___

    Yesterday I went to the bank where I have banked every week for 8 years. All the women there know me well. My son was with me and I asked him to wait outside. Instead he entered. He came up behind me and aggressively dropped down sixty dollars (he was upset that he had to give it to me.) I did not see him come from behind, but I saw the teller and her colleagues become attentive and freeze. They were afraid of my son. We left but a few minutes later I returned to the bank as my son believed he had forgotten his phone. Again I told him, stay outside. He did not.

    Because I had told him that he had acted aggressively, he approached the women and in a loud, aggressive voice, he "apologized." Again I could see all three women were afraid. I believed, had I not been there and had they not known me, they could have hit a panic button. I envisioned the police coming and shooting my son, who wears a hoody.

    Perhaps this is dramatic and overly fearful. But I think not. I think parents of mixed race and non-white children all over the country are fearful and concerned about how their children can protect themselves from the perceptions of others in this climate of fear. Add to that aggressive behavior or words by our children?

    I think it is our responsibility to insist to the extent we can that our children behave in a way that will not trigger a reactive response either by community members or police. While we have no control when they are away from us, we do have control near us. To let Josh continue this behavior around you and your family, without response, to me, is to put him at risk.
     
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    Last edited: Sep 3, 2019
  13. BusynMember

    BusynMember Active Member

    On many levels Copa's post is perfect. My husband and younger kids are partly African American and Kay is Hispanic. It shouldn't matter in 2019, but it does. I am lucky that my husband and kids, minus Kay, are soft spoken, dress very classy and are very appropriate. i worry more about Kay who can be loud and defiant. What if she mouths off to a police officer? She is dark skinned. Will she act so defiantly that she is shot? She has no respect for anybody.

    The rest of Copa's post was also in my opinion on point. Your sister needs to be safe. Josh needs to be turned in for his own safety. And the safety of others.

    I am so sorry for all of this. We don't expect anything like we experience when we first hold our babies. We can't imagine. Then we don't want to believe it's that bad. I understand.

    May God shower you with the strength to get through this with Josh. I am with you.
     
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  14. Deni D

    Deni D Member

    I agree with Copa 200%.
    Your son qualifies as a threat to you and as such I have no doubt you could have him placed in a psychiatric unit in a hospital on a 72 hour hold.
    In your situation I would try to talk to your sister and get her on-board with an intervention of some sort, and soon. Denver has a mental health crisis line you can call. You can tell them of your situation and ask advice from them. Bring the family together on this, there's so much more power when there is a unified front to help your son.
    It would be best if he felt he had no choice but to stay in the hospital for as long as your family says so. A 72 hour hold is nothing, it just gets him there. Keeping him there to actually get some help will take longer and will take a force who he feels he absolutely has to listen to or he will loose all for him to stay.
    After that so much more has to be done to support him but then supporting him will be possible, right now it's not.
    I am also with you, and praying for the best possible outcome for you and your family.
     
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  15. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    This could be the opportunity to reach Josh and get him stabilized on medication.In my state (California) they can extend the initial 3 day hold another 3 days, if they go before an administrative law judge. And then, they can extend it for two weeks, and go from there, if a patient is still a danger to self, others, or gravely disabled. Many patients will go from the inpatient hospital to extended treatment at another facility.

    The fact that he has a history of mental illness, that may involve delusions and hallucinations, could well be a protective factor for him, with respect to consequences for what he wrote. But you are in danger. For him, NOTHING has happened and you have not brought charges against him. He is clearly mentally ill. I am thinking now of another mother who posts here whose son made threats and even raised a knife to her, and the police took no action against him. They only escorted him from the home. But there is this: This mother did get a restraining order. You should too.

    Finally, I would advise your sister to get the assistance of professionals before she speaks with Josh, and to have them present. (To not confront him alone. For her own and for Josh's sake.) Deni's idea to call the crisis line, is a great one. They would handle everything.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2019
  16. elizabrary

    elizabrary Active Member

    Wow- this shocked me and I am not easily shocked. You need to block him immediately so he cannot contact you. Then you need to file a police report and get a protective order. This is not just "normal" difficult adult child behavior. I'm so sorry you're going through this. Please put yourself first and protect yourself. Sending peace to you.
     
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  17. RN0441

    RN0441 100% better than I was but not at 100% yet

    What Josh wrote is bone chilling.

    I agree with the others that your sister and her husband could be in danger. He is in a very dark place.

    This is not your fault in any way shape or form. I am so sorry that you have to endure these painful texts. I would certainly NOT write it off as him "blowing off steam".

    I am so very very sorry that you have to endure this. No one deserves it. I wish I could give you some words of peace right now but all I can do is offer prayers to you and your family.
     
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  18. Blindsided

    Blindsided Face the Sun

    I wonder if they have 3rd party interventionists in Denver?
     
  19. RN0441

    RN0441 100% better than I was but not at 100% yet

    How are things? Thinking of you...
     
  20. JayPee

    JayPee Sending good vibes...

    Beta,

    I'm sorry I didn't see this post until now.

    Just a couple of weeks ago I had the same things said to me (minus the threat to kill) but I was called a whore and told that if I didn't help him with gas money that if he (oldest son) ever saw me and I opened my mouth, he'd slap me so hard across the face that I'd never get up.

    I think that our sons went to the same "school of hate". Both sons, use my religion as a point to fight back. They've been doing this for years.

    He has since sent numerous e-mails (because I've blocked him on cell phone) that have degraded and insulted me. He has told me in the past he wished an 18 wheeler would run me over and his only regret would be that he wouldn't be there to witness it. I understand your pain first hand, as many of us on this site do.

    Only and I mean only by the grace of God have I been able to turn my life around and not even reply to the e-mails (last 3 weeks). I think I will be completely better the day I don't "read" his e-mails but I am making progress. The way they come in on my computer, I have them go into a different folder (which I am keeping should I ever need to provide to the police) but when I view e-mails on my phone they are visible right on the spot. It's hard to avoid them.

    I kid you not, I have delved into about 50 books which I have read over the last three weeks. I am devouring all the self-help, wisdom, knowledge, compassion and understanding they provide.

    I will share something that did also bring my most recent change to not allow him to speak to me that way, yet still engage in a relationship, if you will, with him (by relationship I mean me giving him money). In these books that I read, it explained to me that if I was allowing verbal abuse (which also occurred with ex-husband and younger son for many years) that there is at some level something about myself that I find unworthy. I prayed about this and really searched my soul and in fact, I unearthed something that happened to me as a very young girl that I have pushed to the back of my mind for 50 years. I don't mean I never thought about it but I never dealt with it. I always felt shame and unworthy because I had always kept that a secret, like it was my fault, very shameful, very unworthy that if anyone knew they would think badly of me. Hardly, as I know now, as a young girl of 7-8 yrs. old.

    Once I realized that this was causing me feelings of unworthiness I prayed to God and asked the Holy Spirit to remove my shame, guilt, hurt and pain associated with it so that I could begin to heal. It is working. I have become stronger. I'm not perfect and every time I get an e-mail or an unknown caller number, my stomach does flip flops. My point is, I run to God every time I struggle, even just lifting my thoughts up in prayer.

    My heart aches for your pain. I want to give you a message that might give you hope amidst your difficulties.

    In heaven our dreams will come true. God has promised restoration of all things (Acts 3:21) .."All things, includes all relationships."

    Hoping you are doing better over the last few days since you posted. Please let us know.
     
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