Therapist for DC2

Discussion in 'Parent Emeritus' started by WiseChoices, Sep 8, 2019.

  1. WiseChoices

    WiseChoices Active Member

    DC2 saw a therapist for 3+ years and got worse , not better .This th. saw DC1, DC2 and myself all during the same time in individual sessions. She is a LSW, not psychologist. After a while, I saw triangulation happening : she would tell me things my children confided in therapy to her .I figured it must run both ways then. At one point I told her specifically not to disclose something to my daughter and she did. When I confronted her, she apologized and said "she forgot". I stopped seeing her shortly after that.

    DC2 is very attached to this th. Th. would just let her wallow in her self pity for years, there were few productive suggestions on how to not self injure, I asked for a contract to be made for suicide protocol and it never happened. Daughter sold this th. on her being bipolar when I knew she wasnt and knew what DC2 was doing .

    When th. said was no longer taking our insurance, I told kids they could not use her anymore . A few months after that, th. Texted and said she was still on insurance, but husband and I had decided we did not want to use her anymore. We are switching insurance in Oct and th. is on new insurance .DC2 asks about her every now and then and I lied and said she is not on new plan. Daughter asked again tonight and wanted to know if I was sure . Said she did not believe me.

    Another thing is that th. can't handle the billing and I had to bill our ins company myself and her record keeping was all screwed up, so I received a bill for DC2 and myself for over $1000 each, and I had to go through all the claims and prove to her that they had already been paid .I really don't want to do all this billing and reconciliation as all other therapists do it themselves. So I mentioned to DC2 that I don't want to do the billing , either.

    And she looks at me quizzically, and asks if there is somethibg else going on and that she doesnt believe me. And I get scared of her anger and her emotional punishment.

    So if it comes up again, what do I say? What if she finds out that I lied? She could technically text the th. and ask her what ins she takes .
  2. BusynMember

    BusynMember Well-Known Member

    My first suggestion is to never see the same therapist as a family member. My second is to not ever talk to this th again for any reason. But....and this just makes sense to me....

    If your daughter wants to see her as her th I would not try to stop her. Th sounds horrible, but maybe your daughter gets something out of it. in my opinion it is not our choice what therapists our adult kids see, but we certainly don't have to go to that therapist or pay the co-payment. Your daughter can do that.

    To be fair, you can't dictate to her therapist what to do. No therapist will allow you to be in charge of an adult child's therapy. I also had a friend who cut and she went to therapy and it took her years to quit. She told me "its very addictive and really hard to stop."

    Self harm is certainly a part of conditions like bipolar or more commonly borderline. My friend definitely was very depressed and was on an antidepressant. It is jot normal behavior to self harm. But it can be helped as can bipolarband borderline with therapy and sometimes medication.

    Th broke the HIPPA law telling your daughter anything you told her. For yourself, I would never ever see her again.

    Be well.
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2019
  3. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    I think you need to stop lying to her. To let her make her own decisions about therapy. I think you have more to lose than gain by trying to control the situation. I would (try to) butt out of it. Let the two of them deal with it. Why are you involved in the financial aspects? While your daughter must be a dependent on your insurance, is she still your dependent financially, that is are you still responsible for her debts?

    If you can, let the two of them deal with it. The therapist and your daughter, if that is what she wants.

    I agree with Busy. I would NOT again see this therapist.

    PS I saw a therapist for many more years than did daughter, and never got better. I paid him a fortune, and would not stop, until I stopped. If insurance is paying it, don't get involved. If there is a co-pay insist that daughter pay for it. If she chooses not to, that is her choice.
  4. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    As far as the lie, I would just start telling the truth. With all of the changes in the insurance, and the therapist coming up with new information, it is confusing. Leave it at that. Tell daughter, the therapist is on the insurance after all, that she can make her own decision, but is responsible for any cost.

    I would NOT confess. Your daughter would not be served by that. Just give her correct information and let her handle it. That's what I suggest.
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  5. WiseChoices

    WiseChoices Active Member

    Thank you both!
  6. ksm

    ksm Well-Known Member

    Both your children are adults. You are not responsible for the copays...unless you are the legal guardian.

    Since the therapist did drop your insurance once, and the billing was a pain, I think you can say "if she ever becomes a preferred client, and you wish to see her, I won't be paying copays or handle the billing for insurance."

    I know it's easier for a patient to go back to someone they have a history with. I try to tell my daughter to think of one or two issues to bring up/work on, instead of rehashing old hurts.
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    Last edited: Sep 9, 2019
  7. WiseChoices

    WiseChoices Active Member

    Copa, daughter is completely financially dependent on us .Full time student , has never worked despite therapist and us encouraging her to . She has applied and interviewed once but did not get the job. In all fairness, she had a job lined up at school for this semester, but due to her mental health, we decided together with her to have her commute this semester (2 hour drive twice a week) and not send her back to dorms.

    Insurance does pay, there is no copay, but Like I said , I have to do the billing and therapist has bad record keeping, so then I have to reconcile huge bills she sends me and I am not willing to do that anymore. So I guess I could tell DC2 that she would have to do the billing and reconciliation. We are responsible for what the insurance doesn't pay if they were to reject a claim. Billing them has been like pulling teeth.

    My husband is not willing to have this therapist make another dime off us. He is mad at this therapist for many reasons. He pays for our insurance and feels that even though we don't have a copay, he still is paying for services by paying the insurance.

    Therapist told us she believes in werewolves , ghosts etc. My husband came with us once for a family session and when daughter told her tale of being bi-polar , therapist asked me whether my husband was bipolar after only meeting him that one time. So I do have that issue if his unwillingness to pay to contend with also.
  8. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    This therapist is pissing me off. Werewolves? Ghosts? Husband bipolar?

    If she cannot keep adequate records, forget about it.

    Okay. This is what I think.

    This is reminding me some of my son. Who wants total control and independence, but wants us to take total responsibility for when he falls short.

    I guess this is the reality of things. If your daughter is completely a dependent, financially, and she is not emancipating beyond going to college 2 days a week, then, you can look at it two ways. (Except I don't understand why you have any financial liability or responsibility, at her age.) One You could decide to let her have some responsibility to handle her choice of therapist, and what goes with it, including the financial arrangements, and then work with her to make a plan and implement it. The other way to look at this could be: you have the authority and right to make the decision about the therapist, given that you are controlling all of the money, and to you will accrue the liability if insurance and claims are screwed up. (But again, I don't see how this would be so. Unless you choose it.)

    Do you have the right (or basis) to veto the therapist? You can look at this two ways too. You are a family working together as a unit. Financially and socially and emotionally you are interconnected. Your daughter is depending upon you to organize her affairs, and to provide for her, it seems. I think you could argue that because you have been involved with the therapist, you need to feel confidence, and have the sense that you can communicate with and rely on her therapist. And you and her Dad don't feel this confidence. That for you this therapist has already proven herself to be somebody you don't trust. But then again, your daughter is an adult.

    The call is yours. You have the leverage, I think, to decide either way. Personally, if it were me I would try to move towards allowing her responsibility and autonomy.

    If it were me, I would tell daughter what I think and feel outright. I would decide upon what side I will come down--giving daughter more confidence to handle things--or not. And I would tell her outright exactly why.

    The therapist fouls up the billing. She believes in werewolves and ghosts. And I don't feel confident that she understands your issues, or how to help us as a family. Dad does not feel confidence in her. And I don't either. When you are independent and handle your own finances and arrangements you are free to choose somebody without our input. But because we have to be involved, we get a vote.

    And then live with the consequences. If that is what you choose.

    I think this is how you feel. If this is so. Then tell her outright. I would not lie to her. You have a right to have a say on things that impact upon you. If daughter is dependent upon you in every way, it can be argued she has to accept some guidance and some bottom line from you. It's up to you to decide how much.

    What you have explained to me, is that daughter's affairs are not separate from you nor do you believe at this time they are separable. Then that is a reality. Unless you want to separate them, and she wants to separate them, they remain intertwined. I would face that. And I would say it. Why should you have to twist yourself up into a pretzel lying to her, about reality?

    Unless you decide you want to change reality.
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    Last edited: Sep 9, 2019
  9. ksm

    ksm Well-Known Member

    But legally, your dtr is responsible for the bills that ins doesn't pay. I had the clinics where my daughters go to put them on their own accounts. Then I told both girls I would pay for 2 family dr Appts a year, 2 teeth cleanings, 1 OB/GYN (for birth control). And if they were serious about seeing a therapist... I would pay for once a month IF they were following through with what she tells them to do.

    That's pretty generous, I think. Our copays are $30. But, they both would make multiple office visits or walk in clinics for minor things, instead of trying common sense and OTC remedies. This slowed that down!

    Like taking antihistamine for seasonal allergies, or gargling with warm salt water for sore throats and taking ibuprofen. And when they do get real Rx, they never take them as directed! Such a waste of appointments, medicine, time and money.

    Aargh!! Ksm
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2019
  10. WiseChoices

    WiseChoices Active Member

    Copa, thank you so much! I read your post several times digesting the information. You are spot on: that is exactly how I feel. That because daughter has taken very few steps towards autonomy, we do have input. And you are right: I need to stop being afraid of her reactions and anger, and instead be honest about what is reality. We don't support the use of the therapist . When she supplies her own insurance , she is free to chose whomever she wants.

    You distilled it to exactly what I was feeling and couldn't express in a concise manner because I am always so conscientious about not being perceived as controlling . I am controlling and try to hide that character defect out of shame. But here, I do get input. Just like i expressed my opinion about school and commuting because those decisions directly involved me: I paid the $1000 fee to cancel the housing contract, I drive her, I pay the gas, and put the miles on my car. So I got a vote - either way.
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  11. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    My quote thing isn't working. I want to clarify one thing I wrote. I would NOT decide on a therapist for her. You can argue you have a veto. And you choose to veto this therapist. But I would not choose her therapist. I think this would be infantilizing to her. I believe you are served by giving her leeway to mature and to have freedom of choice, especially about something so personal as a therapist. If it were me, I would let her decide upon the next therapist. And not interfere unless there come to be real problems again. After all. What your goal is, I think, is an adult child who matures into a fully functional and autonomous person. By choosing her therapist I believe you would be undermining that.

    That's just what I think. I have a similar situation with my son, as you do with your daughter. My son's judgement is poor. I want to control the situation. But I also want him to at some point be functional and autonomous, and to make good choices. After all, I will die at some point. It does not benefit him or me, if I micro manage. Better he make mistakes and learn from them. Even if I suffer in the process.

    I believe your daughter (and you) are served by giving her freedom of choice.
  12. BusynMember

    BusynMember Well-Known Member

    I really, really agree with Copa. As long as you pay, and only if you pay, it is okay to not want to deal with this particular therapist who you have had trouble with.

    Aside from this therapist, in my opinion let your daughter pick. Therapy is tricky and it is sometimes a few tries getting one that fits us. He or she may be wrong for somebody but right for somebody else. Only that person can decide. Only your daughter knows who clicks with her.

    Do not expect the therapist to keep you in the loop nor should you wish this. Therapy is private, between two adults. What they work on and how they work on it has to be between them.

    I would be thrilled if Kay would see any therapist. At least that is accepting to a certain degree that you need help.

    in my opinion again being a helicopter parent is unhelpful to all, the normal ones and those that need help. Think about if you would have responded well to a helicopter parent or, if you had one, if you became frustrated.

    We would have loved our younger daughter to work at our business, like our son does. She struck out on her own. We swallowed our own disappointment (considerable) and let her go her own way without trying to hold her back. We were not great parents without flaws, but I think this is one thing we did right.

    Be well.
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    Last edited: Sep 10, 2019
  13. WiseChoices

    WiseChoices Active Member

    While I am away on my trip (flight was cancelled yesterday and I am here for another 3 days) , my daughter contacted said therapist, found out she is in network with our insurance and went and saw her .Nothing has been said about billing. I will not do the billing and I will not be responsible for payment when billing does not happen. I have not said anything to daughter about any of this because I just found out. Daughter only said she had seen a therapist, didn't even give me the name until I asked whom she was seeing.

    I feel fear inside. This therapist is not well. My daughter saw her for 4 years and got worse. Do I tell my daughter how I feel , that this therapist triangulated, suggested my husband was bipolar? My daughter really likes and connects with this woman. My fear stems from the crazy stuff this therapist might suggest. Like before when she allowed my daughter to talk her into being bipolar and then daughter taking medications which were not necessary.

    I think am leaning towards not saying anything. Working my program. Focusing on me. If she straight up asks me, I will express my opinion.

    I do think my daughter is realizing that I will no longer give her attention for her mental health the way I did before .I no longer feed that. And it has caused a lot of problems between us, because she used her mental health to control me and to get what she wants. It did this for years. No more. So our relationship is not good .I am getting healthier and she is not liking it. This therapist will do what I wont. She will feed daughter's mental health issues and keep daughter stuck in them. That's what happened in 4 years .

    I would love some input from all of you. Thank you.
  14. louise2350

    louise2350 Member

    Some of these therapists need therapists themselves. You, Wise,have to do the billing? I've never heard of that along with this therapist's remark about your husband and the therapist believing in ghosts,etc. I once took my oldest daughter to a therapist - my oldest was having trouble in her schoolwork so we thought we'd try therapy. She was only 9 or so. This therapist allowed my daughter to dial "911" and then hung up. When my daughter told me this, I asked the therapist what she was doing allowing my daughter to dial "911" and then hang up with no emergency. The therapist said my daughter (who liked to pull pranks at that age) asked this therapist if she could do that (dial "911) so the therapist allowed it, saying it made my daughter feel like she had some control. I never again took my daughter back to that therapist. There are good ones and not so good ones out there - just like any other profession.
  15. BusynMember

    BusynMember Well-Known Member

    While I believe we have no right AT ALL to tell our grown kids which therapist to see, that is because THEY usually pay the bill and we have no ability to get involved in anything about adult decisions that they fund.

    If we pay the bill, I think we do have a say. We can tell our child "I am not okay with your seeing Sue Smith, but if you want to go it's really not my business as long as you pay for it." Be calm.

    I am very on the fence about what I would do about it if I did pay. This is a very tough situation to be in. If I really didn't like her affect on my child I would probably say exactly what I did in the last paragraph. "You can go to anyone you like as long as you pay the bill."

    She is old enough to do this without you.

    Hugs and prayers and take it if it resonates and leave it if it doesn't. This is an odd situation!
  16. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    No. I think your daughter would dig in more. She likes it that this therapist puts your husband down. She would like it if this therapist would put you down. Your daughter is empowered by it. This is a good thing to her. I think the answer is in what you say below, that your daughter has a power base through this therapist. Your daughter wants to piss you off. Why get pissed off or show concern in any way?

    She is using what I refer to as powers of the weak. People in disempowered groups, such as racial minorities, slaves, women until quite recently, can't show their power directly. It is too dangerous for them. So they use subversive, hidden means, like sabotage, or passive aggressivity. But there are lots of other ways, too. (Do I recall correctly that your daughter has an eating disorder? That and cutting, I think, would go along with the twisting of aggressive , powerful feelings, into something where they appear to be something else.)

    My son does this too. He acts overtly servile in order to manipulate me. And he lies.

    I don't know why my son is this way. I did not dominate him. I don't dominate anybody. I am unassuming and I don't like overt conflict. This all mystifies me.

    ]This therapist is perfect to accomplish your daughter's aims to have a power base.. One, the therapist triangulates. She seems to not respect her patients' parents, and not respect appropriate boundaries. The therapist seems to get a payoff from this, and so does your daughter.

    I think your best shot is to disengage and to try not to react.

    But let me say this: I would hate this therapist. I would want to do anything I could to disempower her. I would want to call her out. I would want to fight my son directly to get him to choose somebody else. But I think all of this would be counterproductive.
    My son went through a long phase where he decided he was bipolar (he copied a friend of long ago) and he told various psychiatrists that this was so, and so he has a documented history as Bipolar. Believe me. He is NOT Bipolar and was never Bipolar. What can I do? I don't think you can do one thing. Except act indifferent. I am assuming you have already spoken to your daughter about some of what you feel. She does not care what you think. In fact, she wants to oppose you. Why empower her more?
    I think this is wise.
    I think the key here is to no longer bite.

    I would try very hard to not engage about your daughter's mental health. I would let her do exactly what she wants to do. I would not talk about it. I would try to be indifferent about the therapist. I would completely bow out of anything to do with medication. I would do my best to ignore the whole thing. In fact, I would try to ignore daughter. (I would be pissed at her, actually.)

    OK. I'm lying. My son has chronic Hepatitis B which he acquired at birth. We didn't find out until he was 19. When he was 21 it got worse. I have been terrorized about this illness, which causes progressive (and potentially fatal) liver disease.

    For a time when my son lived with me I was able to prevail upon him to take antivirals which will keep the illness from progressing. When he left home at 23, I lost any control over his taking medication, or whether or not he went to the doctor or got blood tests or any other treatment.

    I went off the deep end. Once I accompanied him to the Big City where the University Liver Clinic is. By train. It was a 14 hour journey. The upshot? Even with me as the monitor, he DID NOT GO. What did happen on the train? He created a scene in the dining car and almost got thrown off the train. Security was called. I heard the call for more security on the loudspeaker. I thought I needed to check. And there was my son. Surrounded by security. We did get to the Big City. The only thing that happened was I got intensely ill from stress, with abdominal spasms doubling in pain, and my son got on the streetcar, went in a circle, and never went to the clinic.

    I learned my lesson. It took a few hard, hard experiences, and then I accepted, I had no control.

    Until our kids have the maturity and sense to understand their best interests, there is NOT one thing we can do to keep them safe, if they don't buy in. This is what my experience has taught me.

    I think if you back off your daughter will begin to act in her best interests. Eventually. And furthermore, I believe your daughter wants to be close to you, and wants and depends upon your counsel. I believe your best interests are to back off and to give her the space to recognize this.

    My sense is that if you back off your daughter will ditch this therapist on her own. But for this to happen, you have to remove the payoff for her, of the therapist's intrusive, wacky, disrespectful ways, especially about you and your husband. But you have to back off 100 percent. Get interested in your own life. Intensely interested. Be so involved in your own mental health and well-being that there is really no time at all to worry about her. She will pay attention.

    Obviously, I don't know your daughter and can't really make any meaningful assessment of what she is doing and what she might do in the future. And I can't really have any meaningful sense of this therapist, and her motivations or capacity. I can only go by hunches and what you describe. My instincts would tell me to do anything I could to keep my son away from somebody like this. From what you write she sounds both destructive and irresponsible. And ditzy. But my own experience with my son has shown me that NOTHING happens until my son wants it to.

    I don't think speaking up to your daughter would necessarily be harmful. I just think it might work against your interests. As I see it you have several goals here. You want the best for her, that she get the best help she can get. You want her to grow up and to function in an age-appropriate and healthy way. And you would like the relationship with her to return to it's former intimacy and openness.

    I just think that exerting pressure on her to stay away from this therapist would not serve you in any one of these goals. I think she would dig in. While you might be successful in keeping her away from this woman, you would want her to be in therapy. I wonder if she would oppose you and resist seeing anybody, if you stood in the way of her autonomy in this area. I would wonder if she would take it as a message that you had reasons that you did not want her to be autonomous and separate from you. I worry that she may see this as intrusive and dominating. And I wonder if she would take it as your communicating that she is not capable of being self-determining. How are our children going to learn to make good choices unless we give them the space to learn. Which means space to err.

    Last edited: Nov 6, 2019
  17. WiseChoices

    WiseChoices Active Member

    Copa, thank you so much! What you said resonated with me so loud and clear. The power play is exactly what is going on. This therapist allowed my daughter to complain about my husband for years, and I am sure at this point I have made my daughter's crap list as well. Therapist did empower daughter to make and keep my husband in the enemy slot. It is serving noone, but that is exactly what my daughter seeks .I have stopped allowing her to control me through her illness and so she seeks to find power elsewhere.

    I had the same feeling about this as you do : to just let it be, to let her deal with it , to not take the bait .A 3D friend suggested to me last night that daughter was being manipulative and was throwing out bait at me since daughter brought up the subject with me about seeing this therapist.

    I will not be involved in any way. I will refuse to do any billing. I will refuse to reconcile old bills anymore and deal with the insurance company on therapist or daughter's behalf. If a bill comes yet again, I will hand it to daughter. I will reinstate my boundary that nobody drives my car when I am back in the States and I will not ask when her appointments are and not change my schedule in order to accommodate them. If they happen to fit my schedule, I will give her a ride. If they don't, I can't. This is another opportunity for me to find more work. I think it be best if I were to be away from home as much as possible letting daughter deal with her own life and appointments. This is what initially resonated with me, and you confirmed it.

    This therapist keeps daughter in victim mode. She allows daughter control .daughter talked her into that she was bipolar. I said from the start that was not bipolar, never believed it. Interesting that you had a similar experience with your son .
    Daughter likes to control the medications she takes. She will suggest to psychiatric what she thinks she ought to take and this therapist will back it all up. Before I left on my trip , daughter made a big table on paper with the different medications she wants and what they do and said she knew because she understands the biochemistry of the medications. I asked how she knew and she claimed to have been a bio- chemistry major. She has not. Ever. I asked how many courses she had actually taken in that field and she admitted she had taken none. She is on 4 different medications right now. She will use this therapist to try to get what she wants which is Ativan. I don't allow it in my house . She told me before I left on trip she wants Ativan. She may already have gotten it from the last psychiatric appointment. Husband paid for medications and did not enforce our rule by checking what he paid for. I believe he was afraid of conflict with daughter. I am powerless over all of it.
  18. susiestar

    susiestar Roll With It

    I am sorry that you have to deal with this. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that this therapist contacted your daughter and told her that she is on their insurance. I wish I had constructive suggestions for how to handle this. I would refuse to give her rides to therapy if/when she needs them. I also would dump the billing onto your daughter's shoulders.
  19. WiseChoices

    WiseChoices Active Member

    And yes, she has an eating disorder and a history of cutting.

    She also takes things that happen and twists them into way worth things like calling my husband's parenting errors abuse, and calling a sexual situation with a young man at University where she did not say no sexual assault.
  20. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    What is that commercial? I'm not a biochemist. I stayed at the Holiday Inn Express. This is so ridiculous.
    This is a horrible drug. When my son was about 5 he had what they thought was a seizure and they gave him Ativan. He had to be hospitalized because he began to hallucinate.

    I agree with Susie. I would not EVER drive her to the appointments. Why get into this power struggle with her? This would be opening yourself up to constant conflict. It would be handing her over a powerbase on a silver platter. I would all of a sudden develop all kinds of interests, absorbing and important, that preclude you from being available. EVER. I would not even get into a conversation with her about it. Not one. No need to justify yourself. You have done so much for her. The driving her to college is huge.

    You're right. Billing. Medication. Transportation. All of it. Hand it over to her. Let her be a party of one, with this therapist. Let her get drunk on all of it. The two of them. Think of this as an addiction. Let her find her own bottom.

    Meanwhile you keep really, really tight boundaries at home. Just as you describe. Like with this drug, this Ativan. And keep your own focus upon anything but her. She sounds like she is drunk with power. Almost all of it expressed indirectly. This is all very like my son.

    Their task is for them to find their power within themselves as opposed to turning themselves into broken victims, holding everybody responsible except themselves. It's very hard to be part of this kind of a system. For me.

    I want to comment on one more thing. It's about how she has treated your husband. Your daughter seems to be acting like a tyrant. If she can't find respect for him why is she even in your home, a home, I presume he helps provide?

    I don't understand this. How are you powerless over what goes on in your home? You may be temporarily out of the country, but you are going home. I think this girl needs to be reined in. She is calling the shots. It's one thing to call the shots over her own life. It's another to call the shots in her family and home. Where as I can tell, she contributes not one thing.

    I think you will be having a lot of important decisions to make. She should be eligible for SSI/SDI, with the issues she has. She could then get Section 8 housing. Some of her symptoms she seems to be choosing. It seems like she is choosing to toy with the idea of recovering, by utilizing mental health as a means to get drugs, power, attention, and sympathy. And a way to not take responsibility. And deflect culpability to others. As long as you support her, you are supporting this, I feel. This is the elephant in the living room. I recognize I may be overstepping here, perhaps projecting my own experience onto yours, but I would be remiss to not say what I feel.

    It is very similar to my own situation with my son.

    Your daughter is much younger than my son who is 31. But I am looking back and seeing I did the right thing telling him to leave at 23, if he would not get help to change, and to take responsibility for dealing with his problems. There was the similarity with your daughter because he had had a brain injury and the illness I described above. These guys have to be forced to accept the consequences of their choices. I am seeing that clearly, now. Otherwise it's like we're giving them flotation devices to float above all of their crappy, polluted craziness, which comes not from intrinsic issues, but from their nutty decisions. They pollute the waters in which they live, while they float above because we are their life raft. To change and to mature they have to recognize what their choices are creating FOR THEM. For this to happen, they have to live the consequences. As it is, it seems that your family is experiencing the consequences of her poor choices, and only minimally, is she.

    I am thinking of those bottles of bubble solution that we used to have as kids, with the metal rings to blow through. Do those things still exist? Your daughter is blowing bubbles. Blowing them and blowing them. Without a thought. Whether they're toxic to her or others, she cares not a bit.

    Somehow or some way she has to become aware that she's creating damage. The focus has to change from caring about her, to caring about you, your husband and the household as a whole. If your daughter keeps blowing negative bubbles, that affect not only her, but all of you, that needs to be faced.

    I make the mistake of constantly repeating this to my son: You keep blowing bubbles, without caring. The bubbles are killing us. And I keep repeating it, and repeating it. Why?
    If the bubbles are toxic and they won't stop, they need to leave or change. They are adults.

    Right now your daughter and my son are creating all kinds of toxic bubbles and your family and my family are having to live in the toxicity that they create, while they float above it, because we by our choices are holding them up. What's wrong with this picture?
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019