Thumper

[newstart]

My husband made me watch a clip on Bambi where Thumper's mom tells him if he does not have anything good to say to not say anything at all.
My daughter came over for Easter. She looked tired, over weight, restless and was grouchy. My nerves were on edge so I exploded hard on her about her stupid senseless relationship with her boyfriend. I know better. I have studied hard on how to deal with this and the top advice is to not say anything bad about the boyfriend because it will push her more over to him. I could not keep my mouth shut. One of my neighbors, a woman a little younger than my daughter had met my daughters boyfriend at a resturant and told me what a creep she thought he was. She said he was creepy and disrespectful and then felt sorry that she just blurted that out to me. I agreed of course. I told my daughter that once I would like someone to tell me something nice about him but everyone I know tells me they think he is creepy.
So for Easter I told her again how disappointed I was in her selection, what a rude and creepy person I thought he was and why the 'H' is she with such a creep... And then I remember she is not a walk in the park either. She is not good for him and he is not good for her. They both can't see this. My gut feeling tells me he is in love with his ex. Call it mother intuition. My daughter is getting the ex's left overs.

So I realize this is her path not mine, her business, not mine but it becomes my business sometimes, and I need to not say anything about her boyfriend. I need to practice what Thumpers mom told him. My husband can deal with it much better than I can.. He knows that nothing I can say and do will change her. I should know better anyway since she has ODD. Geez.

 

[JayPee]

Newstart,

Sorry for all you're going through. No matter how hard we try it is a constant "grieving the loss of which we had". I actually think that's ok to do but we should not wallow in that place because it's like a vacuum and will suck you into a big black hole of despair.

How can we not hurt when we see our adult children not even remotely living up to their potential? We'd have to have hearts made of rock!

Maybe you should work on reading up on and practicing "detachment with love". Give yourself some distance "in all ways" meaning physically and technologically wise. I found the more I saw my sons and how unclean particularly younger son always is and his total inability or un-wantingness to move forward, the more I got sucked into the dark hole. It weakens our resolve. It's not to say that we shouldn't care but we enablers always take the caring to the next level, in my opinion.

So, I would say, don't beat yourself up for not liking the creepy boyfriend. I'm not sure how long the relationship has gone on for but let it play out. It may disintegrate on its own.

Pick yourself up and as we say in Al anon, try not to go to the fight with your daughter (easier said than done) but pick your battles and sometimes I say, walk away from the battles. The battles that you won't win and will not bring peace to your life.

 

[RN0441]

Sometimes we just lose it and that's okay. You are human.

I'd be glad she had him so she wasn't around bothering me. As you said, she's no walk in the park. Perhaps she can't attract the kind of man that YOU think she should be with?

I'd try to distance myself from her choices and love her for who she is. It is what it is as they say.

Hugs. It's hard.

 

[Crayola13]

I hope your daughter realizes that she matters and throws his sorry ass out. If he doesn't want to be in a committed relationship, he should go elsewhere. If he's still in love with his ex girlfriend, he should go back to her. It's hard to make some women come to this realization about the men who treat them badly. I don't know why, but many women seem to be attracted to men who treat them like garbage.

 

[BusynMember1]

I don't hate people. But I hate Lee, Kay's husband. He has abused her (but she abused him too) and his influence just made her act worse and more detached from the family. Even their son.

Well, she knows nobody likes him but saying it makes her protective of him. The two of them have been together in dysfunction since high school. She is 34.

We have no control over our children's relationships. They pick them for reasons we can't imagine. Our kids are not exactly easy to get along with, ambitious or conventional. They find partners like them. I may add that my daughter used to be very beautiful and had many options when young. Lee is rude, not smart and lazy. He isn't good looking in my opinion. Bad hygiene, like Kay. And also creepy...I get the description.

But we can't do anything but push them closer together. And push us farther apart.

Please accept prayers, love and hugs. Remember the first step of Al Anon. "I accept that I am powerless over our children, that our lives have become unmanageable." Be good to yourself.Please.

 

[ksm]

Have you thought about apologizing for crossing a boundary with her. Maybe not for feeling that way, but for speaking it.

My DGD often rants and raves about her boyfriend, threatening to Ieave him, etc. but, if I say something, she gets upset. I recently told her that it's hard for me to hear the negative things she says about him, but not be able to help her out of the sixuation. I told her I love her, and my hope is that she has someone in her life that loves her as much as I do.

It physically makes me sick when she tells me some of the things he has said or done. I told her that I can't continue to listen and stay neutral. It's so hard...

Ksm

 

[newstart]

Thank you all for your powerful words of wisdom.
JayPee, I have studied that 'detatch with love' list inside out upside down. I do good with it most days but lost it at Easter. My daughter came over looking like she has not taken a bath in a while. That made me frustrated. I counted all the showers she has access to even while on quaritine and the answer is 6, yes 6 showers and she is working from home. NO excuse not to shower and on Easter.
RN, Thank for reminding me that I am human and 'it is what it is' is what I need to think about to remain peaceful.
Crayola13, I tell her she matters all the time. They have been together around 9 or 10 years. She has kicked him out many time but he ends up there again. He has bought her an engagement ring that she wears sometimes but knows deep down that he is not right for her. She loves him but not in the right way. I think she is lazy and has become fat, she is depressed because she thinks she is fat and what does the boyfriend do? Brings home tons of her favorite ice cream.
BusynMember, Thank you for your love and prayers I sure need them. I really believe the right partner will bring the best out of a person, but as I know that is not for me to decide. Even though I tell my daughter he is bad news for her, she agrees and says 'I know mom' and continues with him.
KSM Good point to apolgize for stepping out of bounds with her. I did already right afterwards, hugged and kissed her and told her how much I love her.

Just typing from the lower part of my brain but will feel good afterwards.
How is the 'H' is she going to go over to our home and not shower and go places with us smelling bad? She asked me if she stank and I said yes. How hard is it to get into a shower and take a bath? When she was growing up she showered everyday. How can she sleep with herself at night not bathing regularly? How can she feel comfortable in her skin? What is so hard about taking a bath or shower? What can be taking so much time out of the day where you can't get in and wash your stank ass.

 

[Crayola13]

It's hard to understand. To me, there is nothing like a hot bubble bath at the end of the day, whether or not I have my Dove cucumber body wash. I bet if she had that she would get hooked on it! The scent, the moisture, the hot steam . . .

 

[newstart]

Crayola, Your post made me smile. My daughter reads every ingredient on the products and if there is something on there listed that she does not like she will not use it. When she comes over to my house she reads my products and tells me why I should not use it. I mostly use Lush products. I think for a gift I just may get some of that Dove cucumber body wash and see if that does the trick. I have a large Jamician shower outside and keep it stocked full, my husband loves nice shampoos, soaps, body washes and once in a while when my daughter comes over, I can get my her to go back there and take a nice shower and bribe her by saying I bought some new stuff at Lush. Daughter came over today, she was showered! Miracle of miracles. Time to celebrate.

 

[Triedntrue]

My son also does not always shower drives me nuts.WHY?

 

[GoingNorth]

Not keeping up with personal hygiene is a warning sign of severe depression, as are changes in weight, staying in bad situations, etc. Your daughter needs help with her mental health. I've been there with this. Sometimes it is just too damned HARD to take a shower, clean your body, wash your hair, let alone clean your house. I've had times where the only thing I've been capable of is taking care of Thomas the cat. Depression, severe, clinical depression, is a bear.
I've been there. Your daughter doesn't need yelling at. She needs help, desperately. All the love in the world won't help her with this. She needs a psychiatrist skilled in psychopharmacology, and a good therapist. Your job as mom, is get off her case and stay off of it.
This is something you really can't understand unless you've been there. Please, please, be kind, and BACK OFF! if she needs a hug, offer one. If she needs time to herself, offer it. Stay off her case about her boyfriend so long as he isn't beating her.

What food he brings home, and her weight are none of your business at this point. Your daughter is sick, and her behaviors are symptoms of her illness, a mental illness that can, in some cases, be lethal.

Sorry to be so harsh, but you wouldn't speak and think the same of a person with a debilitating physical illness or injury that prevented them taking care of themselves, would you?

This is no different. Please love your daughter as she is, her neurotransmitters are out of balance and what your are seeing and hearing are symptoms of that.

Just as being cold, gaining weight, dry skin, and brain fog, can be symptoms of one's thyroid hormones being out of balance.

For the thyroid, we can replace the hormones that are not being secreted at the correct levels.

For severe clinical depression, we give medicines that help balance the neurotransmitters, and therapies that help the person re-learn how to live with their condition and how to learn to deal with the unbalanced emotions and feelings caused by their illness.

It's no difference.

Your daughter isn't unwilling, she's unable right now. Please try to understand. It really can be that hard.

 

[newstart]

Going North, After spending an enormous amount of time and money, I have earned the right to speak from my heart without being publicly shamed.


We have offered our daughter all the help, support and therapy to live a successful life. She has all the tools but refuses help, support, therapy or medication.

I will always love my daughter deeply but her UNMEDICATED behavior is frustrating and dangerous. Sometimes being forward with her is best for her sake and for ours.

How old is your conduct disordered child? Do you even have a clue to what it is like to be a parent to a disordered person?

 

[ksm]

GoingNorth, I'm glad that you found things that work for you. Maybe you were willing and open to trying things to feel better. Small baby steps at first led to small changes. And those probably led to bigger changes.

I have tried to help my DGD (now 22) and she has refused all help since she turned 18. She has anxiety and depression. Also bipolar. medications would help. I've helped her make Appts, get medications, paid for medications, only to have her never take them! I've also picked up her birth control patches (4 months ago!) and she's never put on a patch!

I love her, but I can't always be around her. She gets verbally abusive and blames me for all her disappointments. I'm not the reason she has these struggles. Until she wants something to change, it will not change. Ksm

 

[BusynMember1]

New start, if they are mentally ill, it is their responsibility to get proper help. We in my opinion have the right to not accept bad behavior in our home. When I became very depressed, and lots of it was due to Kay, I got therapy and medicine. I hated the idea of medicine, but I had to function. I couldn't lay in bed all day. I had a business to run and two other kids. But that's what I was doing. My husband finally begged me to see a psychiatrist. I did.

Our kids choose not to get better. I understand bad depression. But there is no excuse for refusing to even try to get better.

Jmo. We all do the best we know how.

 

[Crayola13]

Crayola, Your post made me smile. My daughter reads every ingredient on the products and if there is something on there listed that she does not like she will not use it. When she comes over to my house she reads my products and tells me why I should not use it. I mostly use Lush products. I think for a gift I just may get some of that Dove cucumber body wash and see if that does the trick. I have a large Jamician shower outside and keep it stocked full, my husband loves nice shampoos, soaps, body washes and once in a while when my daughter comes over, I can get my her to go back there and take a nice shower and bribe her by saying I bought some new stuff at Lush. Daughter came over today, she was showered! Miracle of miracles. Time to celebrate.

Thanks for telling me about Lush products. Maybe I'll order some. I like Philosophy, too.

 

[Triedntrue]

I have also tried for years to get my son on medications for bipolar. He takes them for a couple weeks decides they don't work or he doesn't like how they make him feel. He even argues that he is more productive without them. Then he calls and is talking suicide sometimes to upset me or play me and sometimes he is very depressed. As a parent we do all we can but sometimes depression seems to be contagious and we reach a point where it is hard for us to function on their behalf . i do take an antidepressant which helps on an everyday basis but is sometimes lacking when he stresses me out. I believe we have to recognize that we can't always give them the help they need because they won't accept it. My son calls me the pill lady if i mention getting on medications. At what point do we put OUR mental and physical health and sometimes OUR safety first. I am always willing to give my son a real or metaphysical hug but sometimes he is not willing to accept it. Most times he either does not know or does not care what effect his decisions have on me. I am not asking for sympathy i don't think anyone here is i am just trying to explain that there are two sides to most of these stories.
There are cases where our son's and daughters mental stability are dangerous to us especially when they self medicate. In other cases our mental health system is sorely lacking and jail has become a substitute for mental health care or the only place that can make them comply. That is sad because it also makes it difficult for them to get jobs and be able to function on their own. Best solution i have found is prayer.

 

[GoingNorth]

I'm not trying to shame anyone, and yanno what?, as that person who has been that depressed, I am NOT saying you, as parents, are in any way obligated to care for your daughters/ sons, take them in, manage their lives for them, or financially support them.

First of all, you have to, at some point, put your own health and sanity first, and your other relationships first as well.

Second of all. It doesn't work.

Do I have children? No. I AM that difficult child. And my parents tried many of the things you parents have/are trying.

My intent was not to say that you should "take care of your daughter because she was "helpless", but rather to explain the realities of that kind of depression, e.g. love her even if she stinks.

You simply can't fix this for her. She has to fix this for herself, and at some point, you may have to do a lot of uh=huh,uh-huh, I understand, and finally may have to say,"Hon, I'm not a professional, I love and care for you, but I can't help you in the way you need to be helped. Not with this. There are resources that can help you. Do you want me to help you find some?"

That's what my mother finally did when I self destructed in my early 40s. Initially, I took it as a rejection and was angry and distraught, but she was right. She couldn't help me. And from out of state,my mother, who couldn't use a modern computer, came up with ideas on where to find help.

Here's the thing...It was my choice as to whether to use the resources my mother found for me.

She also told me that if I mentioned the word suicide, she'd call 911 in my town. She did, too...a couple of times.

If I made anyone feel shamed I apologize, I was just trying to explain things from inside a major depressive episode.

I agree that at a point, you have to let go. Either as a matter of saving yourself and your relationships. Give it over to whatever/whomever you believe in if you have a faith/diety, cast them to the universe and hope for the best, but don't go down with them.

There are other people who need you just as much. You need you, and your are worth the same care,love, and consideration/respect as anyone else.

Yes, it'll tear you to shreds, they're your children, your flesh and blood, and I can't tell you how to deal with that pain, because, as some have pointed out, I don't have children.

It doesn't mean disown your children or stop loving them. It means protect yourselves so you don't get sucked dry to the point where you scatter to dust, where your relationships scatter to dust. You can't help anyone, even yourself, if t here is nothing left of you but a dry, burnt out husk.

But, I do know that your lives have value and meaning, too, and I hate to see you suffer on and on, with guilt and fear, when you did everything you could and can, and nothing changes and there's nothing you can do that helps.

I do care about you folks, you're mothers and fathers, not doctors who can say, "We've done all we can, Call it",and pull the sheet up over the face, cry in the hallway for a minute or two, and go on to the next patient. Your "patient" is your child, and the grief goes on forever, and the guilt, and it eats you up inside.

I know a bit about Christianity due to my history studies, and quite a bit about Judaism due to growing up in the religion/culture.

I am not myself a believer, but I believe, that the God of the believers basically wants his people to be happy and content. Unfortunately, he also expects them to take care of getting there on their own. He also doesn't seem to make it easy for his believers, harder for some than for others.

I do NOT believe that the God of believers sends suffering as punishment or uses it as a teaching tool. Bad things happen to good people, and good people get sick. Life is pretty darned random.

TLR, I apologize if I made anyone feel that they were being shamed. You are good parents, and while I don't have children, I was that difficult child: mental illness, bad crown, drug abuse, all of that, and a horrible relationship with my parents. I know, after reconciliation, and a lot of honest talk, what my parents went through, and my mother's feelings during that period. She also knows how I felt during that time period. In our case, it was nature, genetics, and we both screwed up on a few occasions. We're all human here. Even me, a pedantic, unintentionally harsh (and long-winded) human. Do what can, do your best, but don't forget yourselves in this battle.

Be well all, and ride in peace. May the pain that you suffer ease, and may you become comfortable and content in your hearts and minds/souls. I wish the same for the children that have brought you here.


GN out.

 

[Beta]

Going North, thank you for your insights into life from the perspective of some of our kids. It's hard to grasp, but I appreciate what you wrote and your empathy with parents who are going through painful things with their kids.