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<blockquote data-quote="Copabanana" data-source="post: 761519" data-attributes="member: 18958"><p>I think this is valid. Over the years it has come to be that I co-parent my son with a man with whom I was involved for many years, but the relationship became something else. He is ALWAYS concerned about this. He believes still that the reason my son has not gotten significantly better is because we haven't let him dangle out there in the breeze long enough. That we and others have rescued him, and he has never suffered enough to learn. There is a psychological word for this in classical behavioral therapy. It's called "intermittent reinforcement." That means that rewards are inconsistently given. This is the HARDEST behavior to extinguish. Because animals and people keep waiting for a long, long time for that reward to come. We've trained them this way. So your husband is right, and so is M.</p><p></p><p>But the thing is we're mothers. We are not behavioral psychologists. We're not in a lab with rats. Feelings come up in us that are intolerable and feel unendurable. I believe this is both emotional and biological, too. I believe that this is an inborn trait, and it is very, very hard to learn to deal with, although doable. That's why Al Anon is such a wonderful support and way of being.</p><p></p><p>But there is another way to see this too. It could be that we can't train our adult children to do one thing. It could be that they will do whatever they do no matter what our response is. It could be that any sense we have control is an illusion. It could be that the illusion of having control is more important to people who like to be in control. It could be that people who like to be in control tend to be lawyerly; to make plans; etc.</p><p></p><p>It could be that acting from love sometimes, is the thing that mends and heals. I believe our children are more than manipulative, f-ups. They are our children. Who we love. Love is not a disease or an addiction. It's love.</p><p></p><p>You describe your husband as lawyerly. By this I understand that he likes to be objective and rational. I think while we can value objectivity and planning and rationality--I wonder if you were a little bit plowed over by all of that rationality. You may have agreed with him in the moment. After all, it all sounds good. And I agree with the others that relationships need to be a "united front," based upon full communication and trust. But there needs to be a way for both people to have a full voice. Emotions need a place, too. Heartfelt love and worry aren't just "co-dependency." They're love.</p><p></p><p>I wonder if part of what needs to happen is that you need to find a fuller way to communicate how you feel with your husband. And that there's a place for what you feel in the conversation and in the plan. It's not so much that you did wrong, I think. It may be that all of what you needed to express to your husband didn't have a place at the table. Maybe you didn't feel comfortable. Maybe the feelings were hiding. Maybe you felt overwhelmed or feared he would check you. But feelings need a voice and place, too.</p><p></p><p>I am very much like you. I try so hard to hold the line. But then sometimes I realize this is crazy. Where are lines in love? Love is love. I am not saying we don't need to do the right thing, but it's not always so cut and dried. What exactly is the right thing, anyway? Sometimes flexibility and tolerance have a place. I am not saying who's right and who's not. And I know that I am a minority opinion here. I am not saying your husband wasn't right. But maybe you were right too.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Copabanana, post: 761519, member: 18958"] I think this is valid. Over the years it has come to be that I co-parent my son with a man with whom I was involved for many years, but the relationship became something else. He is ALWAYS concerned about this. He believes still that the reason my son has not gotten significantly better is because we haven't let him dangle out there in the breeze long enough. That we and others have rescued him, and he has never suffered enough to learn. There is a psychological word for this in classical behavioral therapy. It's called "intermittent reinforcement." That means that rewards are inconsistently given. This is the HARDEST behavior to extinguish. Because animals and people keep waiting for a long, long time for that reward to come. We've trained them this way. So your husband is right, and so is M. But the thing is we're mothers. We are not behavioral psychologists. We're not in a lab with rats. Feelings come up in us that are intolerable and feel unendurable. I believe this is both emotional and biological, too. I believe that this is an inborn trait, and it is very, very hard to learn to deal with, although doable. That's why Al Anon is such a wonderful support and way of being. But there is another way to see this too. It could be that we can't train our adult children to do one thing. It could be that they will do whatever they do no matter what our response is. It could be that any sense we have control is an illusion. It could be that the illusion of having control is more important to people who like to be in control. It could be that people who like to be in control tend to be lawyerly; to make plans; etc. It could be that acting from love sometimes, is the thing that mends and heals. I believe our children are more than manipulative, f-ups. They are our children. Who we love. Love is not a disease or an addiction. It's love. You describe your husband as lawyerly. By this I understand that he likes to be objective and rational. I think while we can value objectivity and planning and rationality--I wonder if you were a little bit plowed over by all of that rationality. You may have agreed with him in the moment. After all, it all sounds good. And I agree with the others that relationships need to be a "united front," based upon full communication and trust. But there needs to be a way for both people to have a full voice. Emotions need a place, too. Heartfelt love and worry aren't just "co-dependency." They're love. I wonder if part of what needs to happen is that you need to find a fuller way to communicate how you feel with your husband. And that there's a place for what you feel in the conversation and in the plan. It's not so much that you did wrong, I think. It may be that all of what you needed to express to your husband didn't have a place at the table. Maybe you didn't feel comfortable. Maybe the feelings were hiding. Maybe you felt overwhelmed or feared he would check you. But feelings need a voice and place, too. I am very much like you. I try so hard to hold the line. But then sometimes I realize this is crazy. Where are lines in love? Love is love. I am not saying we don't need to do the right thing, but it's not always so cut and dried. What exactly is the right thing, anyway? Sometimes flexibility and tolerance have a place. I am not saying who's right and who's not. And I know that I am a minority opinion here. I am not saying your husband wasn't right. But maybe you were right too. [/QUOTE]
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