Discussion in 'Parent Emeritus' started by WiseChoices, Nov 23, 2019.

  1. WiseChoices

    WiseChoices Active Member

    I am so deflated tonight. I can't sleep. I feel myself getting depressed.

    I found a flier today in my in basket my daughter had made for me just 1 1/4 years ago. It's an invitation to an afternoon of reading and tea and light jazz. It catapulted me back to how we used to be, the lovely things we did together, how she cared and put effort and love into our relationship.

    This evening when I talked to her about signing the car over to her, I did not recognize the person sitting across from me. I had no feeling toward her. I felt numb. I don't know who that entitled, rude, abrasive human is. There was no gratitude for getting a car. Only a recognition she is getting what she wants.

    I had been concerned about the holiday season because it is clear that these 2 adult children of mine do not want to send any holiday activities with us. I dreaded it. And my Higher Power came through for me so hard: I had applied for a holiday clerk position with the post office before my trip to Europe and had just about forgotten about it. Well, I got the job. Which means I will be working , in jeans and sneakers how I had wanted, 6 days a week all the way through January making excellent money. Being needed because they get slammed during the holidays. Giving back to the community processing people's Christmas packages. Making a difference.

    Daughter got a job at Starbucks full time. She starts Dec 9th. And to share car with her, coordinating schedules , or if that doesn't work having to take my old clunky van where I have to pop the hood and flip a switch to start it and then again when I arrive at my destination is not something I really want to do.

    So today I made the decision to not wait until May to sign over my car to her. That we can do it now and I can get myself a new car right now. The one I want happens to have zero down lease deals right now and I will make money to pay for the extra lease payment (we were gonna wait til May so hub's car is paid off first). I get a car for me that I don't share. That is truly mine. And for her at 21 it is time she has her own vehicle and gets herself to and from work by herself. I will Transfer the title and she will be responsible for all costs associated with car.

    Her attitude towards us during that conversation was upsetting. I have decided to treat kids like the adults they claim to be. So I only said "call insurance company, get the quote for your age, and confirm with me when you have the price. If you need help, ask" . Husband tried to give lengthy explanations and she cuts him of that she is not an idiot, she knows this and that. No thanks. No excitement. Just entitlement and a declaration that this gives her what she wants : independence and freedom. And i know this means drinking and MJ. Just like son who got insurance without our input, did not insure car correctly and did not have adequate coverage when car got totalled.

    She also spoke of moving out. I honestly cannot wait. She spoke of July and I need to communicate the deadline to her of June 1. I told my son that deadline the other day. I want them both out .

    I went grocery shopping Friday. I no longer take her because she is rude and demanding. She had put some vegetarian items on list and complained I got the wrong ones. No thank you .

    I realise that I am in victim mode and need to be rise up out of that and start speaking up for myself. I am so tired though. So exhausted yet cannot sleep. I cannot even cry anymore .My grief is gone. All I feel is numb and disgust for how I am allowing myself to be treated.

    Son when confronted about not cleaning the car literally said to me "I did not feel like it". My kids have no respect for me. I allowed this.

    Thank you for letting me vent.
  2. JayPee

    JayPee Sending good vibes...


    I’m so happy for you that you got that job at the PO and that you’ve made decisions about your transportation and the vehicle for your daughter.

    I am sorry for how things are still going with the kids. I so understand how you feel numb from their abrasive, rude, uncaring attitudes. I still have had no communication with older son since August. I feel strange sometimes because even the sadness I should feel is going away. I’m not feeling anything and I’m not sure if that’s right or good or just the healing part of detachment with love. When you’ve done all you can and no one cares, it eventually sends you a message. For me that message was and is to be the change in the situation. This sounds like another step you are taking for yourself with this job. It will take the focus off your adult children and because you will be so busy you won’t have to work so hard at not focusing on their bad attitudes and ungratefulness.

    Something tells me you will see changes in them as you begin to shift the focus. You will surround yourself with people who have “life” in them and function and thrive.

    I’m happy you are being “the change” in the situation.
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  3. BusynMember

    BusynMember Well-Known Member

    Wise, I send you prayers and a share from my Sponsor. Maybe it will help you. It helped me. This was from a year ago or so.

    I decided to show my sponsor some of the texting Kay and I had done. She glanced at it and said "You made it too personal. She manipulated you and you answered, which an addict sees as a win. You need to let her life go and give it to God. No matter how hard you try there is no way you can influence her choices. And this responding, which she wants, enables her and makes you suffer." This is not verbatum. She is more eloquent than I.

    I had never thought to totally let go completely i was always going to bail her out if things got TOO bad. My own sense of responsibility pushed me to pay her traffic tickets, car accidents, insurance, and you name it. My husband wanted to stop long before I did and we almost divorced.

    Letting go completely, which meant not even checking to make sure her bills were paid or her apartment was clean, was beyond what I could even consider. As a codependent and a control freak, I needed to have SOME control. Of course, I didn't. Not really. But having knowledge of Kay's life made me think I had some control even if doing so was making my blood pressure scarily high. I didn't care. I was in martyr mode ,(which does not mean you are, but I was). I would die for my daughter.Thats how much I loved her.

    Sometimes I seemed to forget that my world included more than just myself and Kay. That others wanted me alive and healthy.

    It was hard to stop texting her, handing over money when she demanded it, listening to her abusive phone calls, only buying stuff Jaden needed. Not her. No cash. No more cars. No more rent. It is hard even now to know she will be homeless.

    But....even a slow learner can learn that I really only have control over me. Even an oldtimer like me can chose not to engage in Kay's bad choices and to suffer less by letting her live her life.

    Wise, it is hard. And it is in God's hands. Your ego will taunt you when you let go.Your ego is the talk in your head about how you are doing the wrong thing, how if you just push hard enough or know the details of your kids messes, you can change them or save them. The ego is not you. I learned to trust my intuition, my higher self, God. It took until Kay was into her 30s. Don't wait so long! Please!

    Your instincts are wonderful YOU are wonderful, God's child. Your daughter is God's child too and He is with her. He allows her free will but He never leaves her. She only needs listen to Him. Like Kay.

    So far Kay has not heard Him, but I believe in miracles. I also know I can not influence Kay. If she makes changes, it will be due to herself, due to God. Not due to me. So now I step back and don't know much about her. And no social media. And my life is more peaceful.

    You will feel saner once your kids move out. Just don't check on them and start cleaning the apartment, like I did. Or paying her delinquent bills. Like I did. These are just suggestions. You have to do it your way like I did.

    From Nar Anon "Letting go is not to stop caring. It means not to take responsibility for somebody else."

    Prayers and love.
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  4. Blindsided

    Blindsided Face the Sun

    Thank you so much for this.

    Love and light
  5. Blindsided

    Blindsided Face the Sun

    I am so sorry your generosity is not appreciated, Wise. You do not deserve the treatment you are getting from your children. I am glad to see you are starting to let your boundaries work for you.

    I agree with Busy. This will not be the last of such encounters unless there is some type of change. My story with my Difficult Child is similar to Busys. I did so much and absolutely nothing changed, except I ended up abused and without a nest egg I could have had. My Difficult Child is 41 and still asking for money. I just learned from my son she asked him recently. I am wishing for you to have the strength you need.

    Love and light
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  6. RN0441

    RN0441 100% better than I was but not at 100% yet

    Sorry that you are feeling sad. I think it is the time of year that does that to us also!

    I think that letting both your kids live on their own will give you so much peace. I'm happy that this is on the table for you. They have plenty of time to make it work.

    I cannot wait until that day myself with our son. I will be so very happy to get back to my empty nesting!
  7. WiseChoices

    WiseChoices Active Member

    Thank you, everyone, for your support. Daughter now has car and was so rude to me again today. She burns many candles at one time in her room and matches at the same time. I knocked on her door the other night and saw it. She had strings in her mouth and was knotting knots in them .I think it must be some kind of witchcraft. She has many glass jars in her room all taken from my kitchen filled with herbs, salt, honey, vinegar and sealed with wax. All this taken from my pantry etc without asking.

    This morning I told her that I wanted her to get a fire extinguisher for her room if she burnt that many candles at one time. I also said I wanted her to remove the wax off her wooden Floor .She responded that all I have is fear, fear, fear , that she doesn't have money for a fire extinguisher and what's the big deal about the floor ? The wax comes off with oil. Also questioned whether I had been in her room. At one point she said "Listen Hon...." talking down to me. I said u am not your hon, that it's my job to protect my assets which is my house and restated that she can't burn many candles at once in there ubtil she gets fire extinguisher.

    Well, husband will put foot down tonight .he will tell her to bag up all the candles and throw them out, he will forbid her to burn candles in her room. He will Install a door handle she cannot lock and tell her if she burns anything in there, we will drop her off at the mission .

    And he will Take the car keys back. She was literally nicer for one day after getting the car and now it's back to b.s. We were going to allow her to drive it until her first pay check and then sign it over to her. Let her sweat over that now. Being nice does not work.

    She also asked questions about the explanation of benefits from insurance company which made it clear she has been lying about seeing shady therapist. Did not show any guilt for lying. I told her that she needs to look into getting insurance from her job because this will be the last year we will carry her or her brother on our insurance. It costs me $200 a month to have them on and I can put that away for retirement.

    So sh*t is gonna hit the fan tonight.
  8. Crayola13

    Crayola13 Active Member

    This is bad. The knots are used to bind a spell you put on a person. The salt and vinegar are used to banish a person or negativity. She has to undo the knots to undo the spell. I'd get a Catholic priest into your house to undo all that damage ASAP. I think your daughter wants something bad to happen to you. Start saying the prayer of St. Michael.
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  9. Crayola13

    Crayola13 Active Member

    Folks, I'm telling you, this stuff is real. We used to go to the charismatic church and I know all about it. She's playing with fire and this could escalate.
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  10. BusynMember

    BusynMember Well-Known Member

    I would look into pot use. The candle use is legendary to mask pot odor. Maybe that's why she is doing these spells too. Some pot mixed with other things screws up your mind. Scary. The risk of fire is worth upsetting her by making her leave early in my opinion. She could burn down the house. Her reckless behavior is worthy of calling the police and making her leave TODAY. If you can.

    If she were mine she would be gone ASAP. And no car. You have more patience than I do. There is no excuse for messing up your house and stealing your things. You can not fix her. She is out of control. Only she can fix herself. You know this.
    Your daughter has no respect for anything you say. Ours doesn't either regarding us. That is why she can't step foot inside our home. When she used to want to meet up, usually to ask for money, we made her meet us in public places such as Starbucks or restaurants. She resented being locked out, but she was not safe in our home.

    Your home is your sanctuary. If you can afford it and don't want to leave her homeless maybe pay for a hotel or room for a month.

    Hugs and prayers. I am very sorry. I really hurt for you.
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2019
  11. WiseChoices

    WiseChoices Active Member

    Well, she can't do anything to me . But I think this is what she is intending to do.
  12. WiseChoices

    WiseChoices Active Member

    Busy, she has actually threatened to burn down the house once in the past.
  13. BusynMember

    BusynMember Well-Known Member

    She sounds very unstable and she could do it

    I would get her out even if I had to pay for her to get out or pay for an apartment. June is too risky. Any day she is there is a risk. I know it hurts but for now your sweet girl is dangerous. She may choose to get better someday. This is not the day.

    If your daughter threatened to burn down the house in her better days maybe it was indicative of problems to come? I'm not sure but I don't think that is a common threat.

    Blessings and sending good vibes and prayers.
  14. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    I'm only seeing this now. Sorry.
    I agree with your husband. No candles. One more candle, she's out now. There are LED candles. I learned about them from New Leaf. Now I have 5!
    I so, so agree with all of this. She could kill everybody.
    And I agree with this too. Except, you need to think of yourself. This car will save you, if this is the only way she can get back and forth to work. I think you are better off thinking of goals that benefit you and your husband, not her. Her being out is what benefits both you and her. If she's doing voodoo in your house and sticking pins in you, how is this good for anybody?
    I had violent thoughts when I read this. Please forgive me. I couldn't help it.

    Wise. You sound very strong here in this thread. Your strength is helping everybody show up strong, your husband, your daughter, as well as you.

    I agree with Busy. But I don't think she's unstable. I think she is venomous and out of control. She is like so many of our kids. She needs to be curbed by life. If she is disrespecting you, your husband, the house and family to the extent she is, she needs to be out now. That is what I think. She has the job. She has the car. She has a college degree. What are we waiting for here? Billions of people (the majority, really, including me, were out years younger, with none of these things.) Let her do this. She's begging for it.

    I am thrilled for you about the job.
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2019
  15. WiseChoices

    WiseChoices Active Member

    Well, it was horrible. Absolutely horrible. We had to wake daughter . It was 7:30 pm and she was hard to wake ; she was drowsy. She was confused and talked briefly like someone coming off anesthesia. She has huge bottles of antihistamines in her room from her psychiatrist. I assume she had taken those before bed. And then the demon was unleashed.

    She did not want to dismantle her witchy things and shuved all the jars and candles into her closet. I made her give me all my kitchen stuff (forgot the candles) all the while screaming at us at the top of her lungs , cursing. That I hate her , that I have a stick up my behind since coming back from my trip, that she doesn't like who I am as a person, that this tough love act won't work (these are exact shady therapist words as I saw her for years). That we are done. That we will never come back from this. That she had to raise me since she was 5 years old, that we f*cked her childhood, etc pp . I have never seen anything like it. I made her give me all my clothes back that she had taken without asking me.

    Husband lost his cool a few times raising his voice , called her an a**hole. He installed a door handle that you can't lock. She screamed this was her room , that she had a right to privacy.

    She hyperventilated on floor. I tried to stay calm and kept telling her that I won't be disrespected in my own house and that she can leave if she continues to speak to me this way.

    She called therapist (!) After she had closed her door .I could hear her through the door and told th. "They took everything". Th. Suggested she leave in her car and I heard d saying that she doesn't have the title, doesnt have money for insurance .That she needed to see therapist tomorrow. This th is working against hub and I. D did not seen to realize hub had taken car key away.

    I told d that I won't continue to live this way , that all questions and requests go through hub. She screamed she had friends , she did not need him, and I said she could have friends pay her bills then. "What bills? I don't have bills". She doesn't see the roof over her head, the food on the table, all that has been afforded to her and done for her .

    I feel strangely better. Like we have taken the power back and that is more important than a relationship with d. Because this is not a relationship I want to participate in at the level of the last few months. I am changing, I have been dropping my codependency more and more and she fights me for it.

    She was very upset that I told her yesterday that we would not cover her health insurance past this year. Threw that in my face screaming. That she knew it was all about shady th and because I did not want her to see that th that I was punishing her.

    I asked about the witchcraft. She said who called it witchcraft and I said son did .She wanted to know all the details of what was said but I did not tell her (he has one of those sealed jars in his room and I asked him about it). She seemed to want to hide the fact it is witchcraft. She said those are her personal beliefs and if that scares me , that is on me. That she has a right to practice them.

    I did defend myself some. I did tell her I love her not hate her when she was screaming i hated her . She said I hate all the parts of her she loves best.

    And today is Thanksgiving. Great! Hub and I will leave early to my s-i-l , both kids will be here together no doubt talking crap about us.

    Hub told her not to burn candles in room anymore. I need to get them collected from her. She said she was not putting spells on me but using her beliefs to help herself. She lies so much I don't know if that is true.
  16. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    This is very like with my son who has for the past few years been espousing beliefs that I find disturbing and noxious: Illuminati, conspiracy theories, etc. My position is that it's his right to hold them and talk about them, but I choose to not hear them around me. More or less, he observes this limit. But he does not engage in behaviors whereby he may be invoking forces or manipulating things, which to me, is going a step farther.

    She's right. Her beliefs are hers. But. Your home is yours. If she chooses to get into a power match with you, as she is doing, she is free to go, and you are free to insist she does. This is about power. She is head to head with you. There is empowered and there is a power grab. You are rightfully stepping into your power as a woman in your home. She seems to find this intolerable. The rightful and necessary thing is that she step into her own empowerment in her own life.

    You're right. Power and dependency don't go together. It's a laugh that these kids feel powerful riding around on our backs.

    It's tough. I am in the same position. My son (still) lacks the skills to manage his life on his own. He throws his power around, too. And I am torn too. Wanting to be his mother but not wanting to be governed by him.

    He, having to face that he can't dominate, while he depends upon me for basic things. Me, having to face the costs of the constant conflict, the constant challenging, bucking, disrespect, borderline aggression. Feeling between the devil and the deep blue sea. And choosing for me.

    I think you're doing the right thing, however painful. I would get those candles out of there NOW. I think the doorknob is exactly the right thing, and if she pushes more about this altar/witch stuff, take off the door, until she moves out of the house. This is a bridge too far.

    She has power here. But she needs to recognize that her power position is over herself, leaving the household, if she can't or won't take authority or to recognize that she cannot be dominant and disrespectful in her parents' home, and back down and curb herself. It seems that she does not see this, or want to.

    I know how long I have been at it with my son. So, I recognize how you may be pulled in different directions by your feelings. However, from an observer's point of view, this girl needs to be out. She has gone way, way too far. This is way beyond the therapist. The therapist is a symptom. The therapist is annoying but irrelevant.

    The specifics of your daughter's behavior, to me, are not the issue. Her lying, her disrespect. Her insolence. The fact that you feel she's withdrawn her love. The issue, to me, is power. If you look at it this way, your interests and hers are complementary.

    You seek to step into the center of yourself, your life, your home. She is seeking the same thing. Except it seems you are each seeking power in the same space, the same household. And she is bucking you to be supreme. Not just over her, but over the house rules, and over your conduct. (Your son too seems confused about authority, and how has the right to check who.)

    There comes a time in our society when adult children have to empower themselves in separate households, in separate lives. There is typically overlap, with visits, relationships, reciprocity, cooperation. And of course, there are cultures where this does not happen, where generations co-exist living within a nuclear home. How they do this, I'm not clear. But I think it has to do with culture. Culture helps. In US Western culture, culture only seems to encourage young people towards individualism, not cooperation.

    When adult children refuse to recognize reciprocity, cooperation, and respect, and will not collaborate, boundaries need be more defined, and it's hard, let alone impossible, for children and parents to cohabit or even co-exist.

    Your daughter is crying out to be powerful in her own life. Let her. This will mean she must move out.

    Right now she experiences her own power as power over you, as winning over you, as defiance. She is not recognizing that power comes from something else. Efficacy, self-control, competency, personal authority, personal responsibility. That is something she will learn. With independence. Personally, I think she needs to leave. In your house, I fear this will only escalate.

    With my own son he left many times before the glimmer entered his consciousness of his need to surrender to my rules. I am not saying your daughter can't return at some point, if she comes to recognize that she needs to rein herself in. I see no sign of that recognition, now. I think you will be the one who has to come to that place, the awareness that this can't continue and she is showing no sign of wanting to control it. She is amping up.

    I am sorry it's come to this. It seems that sometimes it has to.

    I forgot to wish all of you Happy Thanksgiving!
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2019
  17. BusynMember

    BusynMember Well-Known Member

    In Al Anon, and you know this, we are told about an addict's personality. It matters not if they are currently using. The personality traits are there.

    Some addictive personalities are smart enough not to use, so they remain clean, but they still suffer the personality traits of an addict and need help. I think a lot of our kids have addictive personality traits. They include being self centered, needing to be right, being manipulative and they can have trouble getting their acts together.

    I did not realize how much Kay was manipulating me until my sponsor pointed it out. Even a text that passive aggressively made us feel bad was for her to get a response/control over us. Kay feels good knowing she can control our feelings and get us to react. It is a win to her.

    We learned not to read or answer her texts. That just enables her, She wants that and it doesn't serve her or us when we accommodate her manipulations. Letting them manipulate us even by showing them how they anger or hurt us makes them feel powerful. Okay, it took us a decade to stop but we have. Finally.

    Too much pot is an addiction so the addictive personality is in effect. My husband and I see a therapist who also works with drug abusers and between Al Anon and this very knowledgeable therapist, we learned that pot can also be addictive. My therapist sees pot addicts!

    I don't know if your daughter has an addictive personality. I don't know if she uses either. She does not sound "right" to me and I have no credentials other than raising one addict and two normal kids and seeing the vast difference in my kids. I just threw some ideas out there that may or may not resonate.

    Take what you need and leave the rest!!

    Suggestion: Make this holiday about YOU. Relax, cook what you like, watch TV, know that we are with you in spirit
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2019
  18. JayPee

    JayPee Sending good vibes...


    I agree with the others. The sooner your daughter is out of the house, the sooner you will enter into a different level of healing.

    you will still grieve her absence to some degree but it will get better with time as you get stronger.

    when they’re under our roof and manipulating us day in and day out, which we become easily susceptible to because of our love for them, it exhausts us mentally and emotionally.
    As you often say (which I love). Step back adjust your crown and remember YOU are a valuable daughter of God. Treat yourself as the heir you are.

    sending prayers and hugs
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  19. New Leaf

    New Leaf Well-Known Member

    Oh Wise, I am so sorry for all of this ugliness you are experiencing with your daughter. It brought back memories of my struggles with my two. My eldest would act extremely hateful towards me and defy all house rules. It was as if she was begging to be kicked out.
    Reminds me of Cedars explanation of our adult children’s need to leave the nest. She said by allowing them to stay in our homes acting out, we are treating them as beggars, as if they are not capable of taking care of themselves. She expressed it more eloquently than I can, but it explains the resentment. For me, it was such a bitter thing to have an adult child living at home, capable of working, at last helping out somehow. Hubs and I would go off to work only to come home to find her sleeping, nothing done. Always excusing herself from life’s obligations, “I don’t feel well” but well enough to get up in the night to party. It was a vicious vicious cycle. I thought we were being kind, caring. It was not a good arrangement for any of us, daughter included. She became more angry, felt entitled, wouldn’t lift a finger and was rude and disrespectful. It came to a point where I reacted quite angrily, showed her the door and gave her the boot. I am not proud of the way that went down, but looking back, I don’t blame myself either.
    In reading how to work with my grands, I came across an idea for foster parents, a rule setting that involved everyone. Then a contract written and signed by all parties. I will do this with my younger two. It would have not been possible with the eldest, he was running amok.
    It seems the same is happening with your daughter, she feels entitled to do as she pleases. That’s a hard line she has drawn. A challenge. I agree with Copa that this is a power play.It is too bad her therapist has worked against you and hubs. But, with only your daughters version of history, what can she do or say to truly help the situation. Perhaps her advice to your daughter to leave was the most sane thing? Like our parents would tell us? “If you don’t like it, there is the door!”
    I don’t know if you can wait until June dear sister, or if you should? At 21, your daughter is capable of getting a job, her own place, room mates. If life is so horrible for her at home, what is preventing her?
    She is using you and your hubs love for her and robbing you of peace in your home. It is unacceptable. Looking back, I wish that I had sat my daughter down, talked with her and given her a months notice to leave. I don’t know if that would have changed things for her, but I sure would like to have that civilized scene in my head. I did give her many warnings, but let things escalate too far. Until I could no longer stand it. I didn’t want to be home. It was no longer my sanctuary, I was embattled and beaten down, numb as you described it. But that is how our wayward adult kids continue as is. When we are weakened by all of the bs, that we can’t see or think straight. It is the Rabbit Hole. The first step is recognizing what is going on. Which you are. Both of your kids are disrespecting your home, your rules, you and hubs. Stop blaming yourself for allowing it. You are only further victimizing yourself. That’s not healthy. It’s not like our kids become this overnight, it is slow, and insidious. We are knocked flat, who ever thought our beloveds would grow up and be such jerks? We would do anything to have our loving children back. But that is also their ace in hand.
    That we love them.
    But, love says no.
    No, you can’t live here and walk all over me.
    We can only do what we can and still be able to look ourselves in the mirror.
    I think that standing up for ourselves to maltreatment from our adult children is a very valuable lesson to them.
    Thou shall not disrespect thy parent.
    You got this Wise, you will figure out what is best. Please know you are not alone in whatever you decide.
    Happy Thanksgiving to all!
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  20. WiseChoices

    WiseChoices Active Member

    Tough love works. Daughter apologized , was very demure , and will make plans to move out by March. She used her mental health issues as excuses for some of her behavior towards me, but is willing to be respectful and do what I ask. I told her use of car is dependent upon how it goes with her level of respect.
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