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Boundaries...Please read Copa and Cedar...please answer. Thanks.
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<blockquote data-quote="Scent of Cedar *" data-source="post: 667177" data-attributes="member: 17461"><p>When I become confused about what is happening between myself and those I love, it helps me to think about what healthy looks and feels like.</p><p></p><p>What would it look and feel like, how would the conversation sound, between two healthy sisters, between a healthy father and daughter or son, between mates? </p><p></p><p>Between friends.</p><p></p><p>Once I have that concept, then I can see where the flavor of my relationships are unbalanced. I think so often of your posting the article on the difference between healthy families and dysfunctional families (and relationships) being a matter of degree, a matter of role flexibility. What I see between ourselves and our sisters is an insistence on their parts that we stay in that one-dimensional role of pseudo mom. We are there to listen, to be a source of comfort and sanity and hope. Those are all good things, but without the flow and exchange of real relationship, we slip into automaton: Nothing the sisters do is wrong because they are to be protected. That would explain why my sister could get away with anything and I would defend her to D H or my mother, or anyone, even myself. I believed in her. When her behaviors were bad, I believed she could do better.</p><p></p><p>We are both in our sixties.</p><p></p><p>Hello. </p><p></p><p>My words for the change in how I feel about my sister today: "I believe you. I no longer believe <em>in</em> you."</p><p></p><p>I am seeing what she does, and not believing she did not mean to do whatever the hurtful thing was.</p><p></p><p>And when that happened? I didn't like my sister very much at all.</p><p></p><p>***</p><p></p><p>Real relationship is about defining reality in a healthier, more strengthening way for both individuals. </p><p></p><p>That requires us to state our truths as we see them and come into consensus on what was real about how we remember our stories. When you had questions about your mother's belief system, about hurtful things she had done (like when she refused to care for you after your first child's birth ~ that was so hurtful a thing) your sister refuses to hear you. </p><p></p><p>Each of us has had to be very brave, to question our interpretations of our mothers, and of our stories. It is a hard thing, to question shame. To identify it and look at and taste it, and expose the hurt of it. It was very hard for me to do that, especially at first. I wondered what was the matter with me for thinking the way I was thinking about my own mother, or about my own sibs and etc.</p><p></p><p>Maybe our sisters, still in relationship with the mother (or maybe, in relationship to the mother in a way that feels real for the first time) cannot address the ambivalence they feel regarding the mother. This is understandable. If my mother had not been so unremittingly mean, I would have been happy to love and be loved by her. Whatever happened in the past would not have mattered. But my mom, and yours too Serenity, though perhaps not Copa's, just kept doing the strangest, most hurtful things. (Remember my confusion over who was lying: me, or my mother. It took pages of determined chain of consciousness digging, it took imagery of strong witness, and it took having you and Copa to witness for me in real time, for me to come to some understanding of what was true and then, put those pieces together to figure out how what happened in my childhood was affecting me, today.)</p><p></p><p>It even took D H validating that I remembered what I thought I remembered, correctly.</p><p></p><p>***</p><p></p><p>I am wondering this morning whether the younger sisters see us only in this one-dimensional way...and whether we see them too, in one dimension: protected younger sib. </p><p></p><p>That would be the two differing sides of the coin.</p><p></p><p>When both sisters are interacting from the same reality (protector/protected) the coin can be spent. When one of us becomes healthier, the coin rings like a counterfeit thing. The sisters insist we are who they say. The hurt for us is that who they say we must be means we must carry the sister's unacknowledged ambivalence, and maybe even hatred, for the mother.</p><p></p><p>We are pseudo mom. Our role is to protect from Witch Mother, and to carry the hatred the younger sibs feel for Witch Mother so they can love the real mother.</p><p></p><p>That is why the way they hate us feels like some limitless, eyeless rage.</p><p></p><p>That could be.</p><p></p><p>I see that sense of entitlement in your sister's demands that her relationship to you look like it did when you both lived in Witch Mother's realm. She talks. You listen, encourage, believe she is better than she believes she is.</p><p></p><p>Pseudo mom.</p><p></p><p>But the sisters hate pseudo mom because Witch Mother hated pseudo mom, too.</p><p></p><p>Pseudo mom questioned Witch Mother's grandiosity addicted authority.</p><p></p><p>So, that's kind of a mess, but that is what I think happens not just to my sister or yours, but to all the sibs in dysfunctional families.</p><p></p><p>Everyone has to remain frozen in their roles for the family to work. Just like we did when we were little girls, at some point we say: Up with this I will not put.</p><p></p><p>So, Witch Mother, alive and voraciously well in her interactions with her adult children no matter how old everyone gets, no matter how frail the dysfunctional mother becomes, ridicules and victimizes and ostracizes that rebellious child who declares: Up with this I will not put.</p><p></p><p>The selfsame patterns the abusive mother set up in the first place are the only patterns she will allow in her interactions with her children, and in their interactions with one another, all of her life.</p><p></p><p>I will read the other responses, now.</p><p></p><p>Your boundaries are correct, Serenity. It is like what I said to my sister in my last conversation with her: "I do love you. I love you too much to love you this way."</p><p></p><p>For the sisters, if pseudo mom refuses to comfort and protect, there is nothing left but the ambivalence the sisters feel for Witch Mother. We carry that for them, too. If you think back Serenity, you always knew your sister did not love you the same way you loved her. In my relationship to my sister, there was always a feeling ~ almost like a mom feels ~ that I wanted her to do better. If she did better than me, that felt good, too. I'm not saying there wasn't sibling jealousy, but there was pride in my sister's beauty or accomplishments that she does not feel for me. </p><p></p><p>I like what I said to my sister very much. It still rings true for me. I do love her. I do not love what she does, and I feel awful to know that she hates me but I think that she does. It is a correct thing for me to require more of her than the counterfeit version of sisterhood she is willing to give me.</p><p></p><p>Up with this I will not put.</p><p></p><p>Cedar</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Scent of Cedar *, post: 667177, member: 17461"] When I become confused about what is happening between myself and those I love, it helps me to think about what healthy looks and feels like. What would it look and feel like, how would the conversation sound, between two healthy sisters, between a healthy father and daughter or son, between mates? Between friends. Once I have that concept, then I can see where the flavor of my relationships are unbalanced. I think so often of your posting the article on the difference between healthy families and dysfunctional families (and relationships) being a matter of degree, a matter of role flexibility. What I see between ourselves and our sisters is an insistence on their parts that we stay in that one-dimensional role of pseudo mom. We are there to listen, to be a source of comfort and sanity and hope. Those are all good things, but without the flow and exchange of real relationship, we slip into automaton: Nothing the sisters do is wrong because they are to be protected. That would explain why my sister could get away with anything and I would defend her to D H or my mother, or anyone, even myself. I believed in her. When her behaviors were bad, I believed she could do better. We are both in our sixties. Hello. My words for the change in how I feel about my sister today: "I believe you. I no longer believe [I]in[/I] you." I am seeing what she does, and not believing she did not mean to do whatever the hurtful thing was. And when that happened? I didn't like my sister very much at all. *** Real relationship is about defining reality in a healthier, more strengthening way for both individuals. That requires us to state our truths as we see them and come into consensus on what was real about how we remember our stories. When you had questions about your mother's belief system, about hurtful things she had done (like when she refused to care for you after your first child's birth ~ that was so hurtful a thing) your sister refuses to hear you. Each of us has had to be very brave, to question our interpretations of our mothers, and of our stories. It is a hard thing, to question shame. To identify it and look at and taste it, and expose the hurt of it. It was very hard for me to do that, especially at first. I wondered what was the matter with me for thinking the way I was thinking about my own mother, or about my own sibs and etc. Maybe our sisters, still in relationship with the mother (or maybe, in relationship to the mother in a way that feels real for the first time) cannot address the ambivalence they feel regarding the mother. This is understandable. If my mother had not been so unremittingly mean, I would have been happy to love and be loved by her. Whatever happened in the past would not have mattered. But my mom, and yours too Serenity, though perhaps not Copa's, just kept doing the strangest, most hurtful things. (Remember my confusion over who was lying: me, or my mother. It took pages of determined chain of consciousness digging, it took imagery of strong witness, and it took having you and Copa to witness for me in real time, for me to come to some understanding of what was true and then, put those pieces together to figure out how what happened in my childhood was affecting me, today.) It even took D H validating that I remembered what I thought I remembered, correctly. *** I am wondering this morning whether the younger sisters see us only in this one-dimensional way...and whether we see them too, in one dimension: protected younger sib. That would be the two differing sides of the coin. When both sisters are interacting from the same reality (protector/protected) the coin can be spent. When one of us becomes healthier, the coin rings like a counterfeit thing. The sisters insist we are who they say. The hurt for us is that who they say we must be means we must carry the sister's unacknowledged ambivalence, and maybe even hatred, for the mother. We are pseudo mom. Our role is to protect from Witch Mother, and to carry the hatred the younger sibs feel for Witch Mother so they can love the real mother. That is why the way they hate us feels like some limitless, eyeless rage. That could be. I see that sense of entitlement in your sister's demands that her relationship to you look like it did when you both lived in Witch Mother's realm. She talks. You listen, encourage, believe she is better than she believes she is. Pseudo mom. But the sisters hate pseudo mom because Witch Mother hated pseudo mom, too. Pseudo mom questioned Witch Mother's grandiosity addicted authority. So, that's kind of a mess, but that is what I think happens not just to my sister or yours, but to all the sibs in dysfunctional families. Everyone has to remain frozen in their roles for the family to work. Just like we did when we were little girls, at some point we say: Up with this I will not put. So, Witch Mother, alive and voraciously well in her interactions with her adult children no matter how old everyone gets, no matter how frail the dysfunctional mother becomes, ridicules and victimizes and ostracizes that rebellious child who declares: Up with this I will not put. The selfsame patterns the abusive mother set up in the first place are the only patterns she will allow in her interactions with her children, and in their interactions with one another, all of her life. I will read the other responses, now. Your boundaries are correct, Serenity. It is like what I said to my sister in my last conversation with her: "I do love you. I love you too much to love you this way." For the sisters, if pseudo mom refuses to comfort and protect, there is nothing left but the ambivalence the sisters feel for Witch Mother. We carry that for them, too. If you think back Serenity, you always knew your sister did not love you the same way you loved her. In my relationship to my sister, there was always a feeling ~ almost like a mom feels ~ that I wanted her to do better. If she did better than me, that felt good, too. I'm not saying there wasn't sibling jealousy, but there was pride in my sister's beauty or accomplishments that she does not feel for me. I like what I said to my sister very much. It still rings true for me. I do love her. I do not love what she does, and I feel awful to know that she hates me but I think that she does. It is a correct thing for me to require more of her than the counterfeit version of sisterhood she is willing to give me. Up with this I will not put. Cedar [/QUOTE]
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