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Can you forgive him forever?
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<blockquote data-quote="Elsi" data-source="post: 742450" data-attributes="member: 23349"><p>Smithmom, just catching up on your conversation with Copa and Tonya here. I just want to say - none of us are wonder woman, none of us think we are stronger or better than you, none of us will judge you for whatever choices you make. It seems to me you are being very hard on yourself right now.</p><p></p><p>And I don't think our positions, or our final actions, are as far from yours as you seem to think.</p><p></p><p>The question that I have for you is: what does "forgiveness" mean to you? What does it feel like? What does it look like? What does a failure to forgive feel and look like?</p><p></p><p>Because to me it still looks like we are talking about more than one thing here. Forgiveness. And continuing an active relationship. To me, they are separate things.</p><p></p><p>To me, forgiveness is letting go of pain, letting go of anger, letting go of bitterness. Perhaps coming to some understanding of the other person that allows us to feel empathy with them even though they have hurt us - an understanding of how they are affected by mental illness and/or drugs, for example. This is the forgiveness that we do for OURSELVES, so we can find peace with ourselves and with our relationship with another person. So it no longer eats us alive.</p><p></p><p>Deciding what kind of active relationship to have with someone, or whether there will be any ongoing relationship at all, is something entirely different. You can forgive someone and never see them again. You can forgive someone and still decide that you cannot trust them and do not want to open yourself up to further pain in the future. You can look at them with empathy and understanding, and realize that they are incapable of being a person you are able to be around.</p><p></p><p>I suppose, in some sense, I have forgiven my ex husband. He was extremely abusive. He hit me. He threw me into a wall. He pushed me down the stairs. He choked me on multiple occasions. He held a knife to my throat and once held a gun to my head. And then of course there was verbal and emotional abuse, the threats and bullying. He was also extremely broken. He was abused by his father. He was mentally ill. He tried to rise above his demons many times and failed every time. Ten years later, I almost never think of him. Sometimes a scene in a movie or an article in the news or someone raising their voice will trigger PTSD. But mostly, he never crosses my mind. I no longer feel anger or bitterness towards him, at least on my account. I don't wish him ill. I have moved on, and I can look at him with pity, as a broken man. But even though I have let go of anger, I will NEVER be in the same room with him again. I will never trust him. And I suppose the part I haven't forgiven, and never fully will, is the impact he has had on the kids. That is still a core of bitterness inside me, but I don't let it overtake my life. I can't. I have to make my peace with the past, in all its ugliness, or I will never find peace and happiness in the present or the future.</p><p></p><p>I think what you are asking about is something else though. You are asking about actions you will take in the real world, in the interactions you have with your son. If he comes to you with an apology, do you have to say to him "I accept your apology and I forgive you?" Do you somehow owe that to him? Can you hear those words from him and reply, "no, I cannot accept your apology?" Can you cut him off and tell him you never want to hear from him again? Can you decide to go no contact, permanently, and never respond to any messages from him again? If you take these steps, does it make you a bad person? </p><p></p><p>My ex has never apologized, to me or the kids. I don't want his apology. No apology could ever be adequate for what he's done. And I don't want any contact with him. If somehow we ended up face to face and he threw an apology at me, I'm not sure what I would do. Perhaps just turn and walk away. Perhaps say, "I'm glad you can acknowledge the harm you've done, but I don't want your apology. Go and be better in your next phase of life, but I don't want to hear from you again." Perhaps that means I really haven't forgiven him at all. Again, I guess it depends on your definition of forgiveness. </p><p></p><p>With your son, I can hear the hurt in your words. You are hurt by his rejection, and you want to reject him back, permanently, so you can let go and stop hurting. You want closure in this relationship, because he keeps hurting you, over and over again. That is completely sane and understandable. </p><p></p><p>I also hear your desire to not be manipulated again. your sense that any apology from him will not be sincere, and will only come when he wants to get something out of you again. That it will not indicate real change. And I don't think we ever have to accept these kinds of apologies. They are not real apologies. You would be completely correct to say, "An apology without a change of heart isn't an apology. I believe you are only saying these words because you want something from me. And therefore I cannot accept your apology." And you can say those words <em>whether or not you have forgiven him in your heart. </em>You can decide on whether you want a continued relationship regardless of your ability to forgive also. Wanting to avoid future pain and manipulation, drawing boundaries that prevent us from getting hurt, are entirely rational and healthy reactions. </p><p></p><p>But ask yourself - if he did undergo a complete change of heart and develop new understanding and empathy, and you were fully convinced that the change was real and permanent and not a manipulation tactic, could you accept him back into your life? Could you offer forgiveness to him then? Or is there too much history there to move on? I do not judge you either way. Only you know the full extent of the history and the full extent of what you have already given. Sometimes we come to an end in what we have left to give. Even with our children. </p><p></p><p>But perhaps you don't need to make that decision permanent right now. Perhaps one way to think of it is that your son, <em>as he is right now</em>, is someone you do not want in your life, and you cannot accept an apology from him. The relationship you have with him is over, from your standpoint. Get your closure and move on. </p><p></p><p>And if, at some point, you come to the conclusion that something has shifted within him and he has made a transformation into a new, better person? You can make your decision then what kind of relationship that you want to have with that new person. It will be an entirely new relationship, with someone you never expected to meet. And I think you can't expect it, or the expectation will drive you crazy. But perhaps you can let yourself be open to it if it happens. (I think of my relationship with post-prison N in this way, I suppose.) </p><p></p><p>But no matter what you decide, you are not a bad person, or a weak person. All of us here are entirely human and working through our own solutions to the pain our children inflict on us. We will support you in whatever you decide makes the most sense for YOU to give you the peace and closure that you need. And deserve.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Elsi, post: 742450, member: 23349"] Smithmom, just catching up on your conversation with Copa and Tonya here. I just want to say - none of us are wonder woman, none of us think we are stronger or better than you, none of us will judge you for whatever choices you make. It seems to me you are being very hard on yourself right now. And I don't think our positions, or our final actions, are as far from yours as you seem to think. The question that I have for you is: what does "forgiveness" mean to you? What does it feel like? What does it look like? What does a failure to forgive feel and look like? Because to me it still looks like we are talking about more than one thing here. Forgiveness. And continuing an active relationship. To me, they are separate things. To me, forgiveness is letting go of pain, letting go of anger, letting go of bitterness. Perhaps coming to some understanding of the other person that allows us to feel empathy with them even though they have hurt us - an understanding of how they are affected by mental illness and/or drugs, for example. This is the forgiveness that we do for OURSELVES, so we can find peace with ourselves and with our relationship with another person. So it no longer eats us alive. Deciding what kind of active relationship to have with someone, or whether there will be any ongoing relationship at all, is something entirely different. You can forgive someone and never see them again. You can forgive someone and still decide that you cannot trust them and do not want to open yourself up to further pain in the future. You can look at them with empathy and understanding, and realize that they are incapable of being a person you are able to be around. I suppose, in some sense, I have forgiven my ex husband. He was extremely abusive. He hit me. He threw me into a wall. He pushed me down the stairs. He choked me on multiple occasions. He held a knife to my throat and once held a gun to my head. And then of course there was verbal and emotional abuse, the threats and bullying. He was also extremely broken. He was abused by his father. He was mentally ill. He tried to rise above his demons many times and failed every time. Ten years later, I almost never think of him. Sometimes a scene in a movie or an article in the news or someone raising their voice will trigger PTSD. But mostly, he never crosses my mind. I no longer feel anger or bitterness towards him, at least on my account. I don't wish him ill. I have moved on, and I can look at him with pity, as a broken man. But even though I have let go of anger, I will NEVER be in the same room with him again. I will never trust him. And I suppose the part I haven't forgiven, and never fully will, is the impact he has had on the kids. That is still a core of bitterness inside me, but I don't let it overtake my life. I can't. I have to make my peace with the past, in all its ugliness, or I will never find peace and happiness in the present or the future. I think what you are asking about is something else though. You are asking about actions you will take in the real world, in the interactions you have with your son. If he comes to you with an apology, do you have to say to him "I accept your apology and I forgive you?" Do you somehow owe that to him? Can you hear those words from him and reply, "no, I cannot accept your apology?" Can you cut him off and tell him you never want to hear from him again? Can you decide to go no contact, permanently, and never respond to any messages from him again? If you take these steps, does it make you a bad person? My ex has never apologized, to me or the kids. I don't want his apology. No apology could ever be adequate for what he's done. And I don't want any contact with him. If somehow we ended up face to face and he threw an apology at me, I'm not sure what I would do. Perhaps just turn and walk away. Perhaps say, "I'm glad you can acknowledge the harm you've done, but I don't want your apology. Go and be better in your next phase of life, but I don't want to hear from you again." Perhaps that means I really haven't forgiven him at all. Again, I guess it depends on your definition of forgiveness. With your son, I can hear the hurt in your words. You are hurt by his rejection, and you want to reject him back, permanently, so you can let go and stop hurting. You want closure in this relationship, because he keeps hurting you, over and over again. That is completely sane and understandable. I also hear your desire to not be manipulated again. your sense that any apology from him will not be sincere, and will only come when he wants to get something out of you again. That it will not indicate real change. And I don't think we ever have to accept these kinds of apologies. They are not real apologies. You would be completely correct to say, "An apology without a change of heart isn't an apology. I believe you are only saying these words because you want something from me. And therefore I cannot accept your apology." And you can say those words [I]whether or not you have forgiven him in your heart. [/I]You can decide on whether you want a continued relationship regardless of your ability to forgive also. Wanting to avoid future pain and manipulation, drawing boundaries that prevent us from getting hurt, are entirely rational and healthy reactions. But ask yourself - if he did undergo a complete change of heart and develop new understanding and empathy, and you were fully convinced that the change was real and permanent and not a manipulation tactic, could you accept him back into your life? Could you offer forgiveness to him then? Or is there too much history there to move on? I do not judge you either way. Only you know the full extent of the history and the full extent of what you have already given. Sometimes we come to an end in what we have left to give. Even with our children. But perhaps you don't need to make that decision permanent right now. Perhaps one way to think of it is that your son, [I]as he is right now[/I], is someone you do not want in your life, and you cannot accept an apology from him. The relationship you have with him is over, from your standpoint. Get your closure and move on. And if, at some point, you come to the conclusion that something has shifted within him and he has made a transformation into a new, better person? You can make your decision then what kind of relationship that you want to have with that new person. It will be an entirely new relationship, with someone you never expected to meet. And I think you can't expect it, or the expectation will drive you crazy. But perhaps you can let yourself be open to it if it happens. (I think of my relationship with post-prison N in this way, I suppose.) But no matter what you decide, you are not a bad person, or a weak person. All of us here are entirely human and working through our own solutions to the pain our children inflict on us. We will support you in whatever you decide makes the most sense for YOU to give you the peace and closure that you need. And deserve. [/QUOTE]
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