I am finally not doing this anymore. Please help?

[BusynMember1]

Kay just got finished yelling at me. She said, and this is a very short version:

1. I (meaning me) want to be naive and not know what is going on in this country with forced vaccinations for everyone by 2020. They are going to force us all to get deadly vaccinations, like the flu shot etc. This will make us sick and kill us. It's a means of population control, like in Australia, and Big Pharma is doing it.

2. My not believing that this is true makes me a bad grandmother. I am loving but naive and therefore unsafe to Jaden. How does she know I wont vaccinate him behind her back so because of this I cant see him.

3. She is serene because she KNOWS how to cure all diseases including cancer and if I.would only listen to her, I would never get sick. Its selfish of me not to listen to her tell me how to prevent getting cancer so that I can live a longer time for her and J. I should want to know how to prevent and cure cancer. It is cured all the time and you DONT need chemotherapy. Holistic medicine cures cancer and Big Pharma will never allow most of us to know this so they are murdering homeopathic doctors. Yep! 90 homeopathic doctors have been murdered by Big Pharma. There names are on the internet. (I looked this up and on alternative healthcare sites, this is a huge conspiracy).

4. Now my saying "I see" and "interesting" when I listen meanst i dont believe these things and I am making fun of her and that I dont really believe her but she did the research and I didnt. Meanwhile she isn't going to talk to me again because she knows I don't believe her. That means I think she us stupid and its me who is naive and stupid. (Never once did she say she was wrong. I would never hurt her that way. But to you guys I admit that I think this is so wacky that I am literally sick to my stomach. I feel like throwing up.)

She hung up telling me she doesnt want to talk to me anymore. I will nor be sending another letter.

I am blocking her and enough is enough. I was shaking and crying when I got off the phone. Since I always talk on speaker her father heard everything and wanted to grab the phone but I told him not to get involved. It would have made things worse. But he was hot.

I wonder if she is on hard drugs again. I wonder if she is more mentally ill. I am here for Kay, but not if she is going to abuse me. And her dad. She was throwing in zingers about him too. "Dad will stick up for YOU no matter what! Tell him I wont talk to him either. $#&@ both of you!"

I am more okay than I should be. I think I realize this is not normal and I need to move on. My husband looks shell shocked. I dont think he has moved for ten minutes. I know we will talk later but we are not ready to yet.

Am I doing the right thing? I get scared when she talks about these vaccines and diseases. Its weird.

 

[Triedntrue]

I don't profess to know about all the research on vaccines but what she is saying does not sound realistic to me. A cure for cancer , doctors murdered sounds off the wall. I think taking a break from her nonsense is a good idea.

 

[Copabanana]

My son was doing similar stuff, not quite so bad, but bad enough. He still is all wrapped up in it, but it seems less intense, less rigid. I tell you this to let you know that I have dealt with something similar and I had similar reactions, to you.

I think Kay sounds like she could be mentally ill. For a time I worried my son had Delusional Disorder, which is a very serious mental illness, approaching a psychosis. Such people have NO insight into their condition. Their beliefs are rigid, stereotypical, extreme, and often paranoid and bizarre. You can google delusional disorder and conspiracy theories, and see what comes up.

The thing is, when people have this condition, there is NO talking to them about it. They have NO perspective. NO reality testing. They believe that 100 percent what they think and feel are real, true.

I don't think there is anything you can do in this situation except what you are doing, which is to remove yourself from it. What I want to get across to you is that she seems largely helpless. She seems to not be choosing this. She is not deliberately targeting you. She is in the sway of something that has overwhelmed her. That's what I think.

It is very sad.

My son believes conspiracy theories and he also has BDD which is body dysmorphic disorder. He believes he is disfigured because he has a receding hairline. With this he is getting better. He is able to accept that this is a psychological condition even though it feels like reality to him. Before he would not hear there was a psychological element.

With respect to the conspiracy theories, he still believes them 100 percent, but you can talk to him, and he is more easy going about it. Less pushy. Not one hundred percent in their sway.

When he was rigid I would not speak to him, if he began to utter one word about it. He learned. He changed his behavior. A person with Delusional Disorder would not be able to have this flexibility, changing, or the beginnings of insight.

I don't know what is Kay's issue. What I do know is that she does not have control here.

I would try to back off as much as I could. She clearly becomes agitated when she speaks to you about it. For reasons that are not clear. But I don't see how you have any influence. If the husband was not around it could be different, but he seems controlling and even abusive.

I'm sorry.

 

[BusynMember1]

Thank you both.

Kay doesn't rant on like this to anyone but me. She would never do this to her siblings as they would tell her off and hang up and not care if she walked away or not. She wouldn't do this to her dad because he would also hang up, if calmly. It is not as if she has no control. She does have a homeschool group that all think like her. So she talks about this to Lee and her homeschool friends.....and me!

I think she is brainwashed and there is no talking to her about it. She believes all of it. She truly believes she has the knowledge to both prevent and cure cancer and that Big Pharma is murdering homeopathic doctors. There is a large, but fortunately minority group that believes this way. Brainwashed. Anti science. I cant keep doing this with her. I know that if Jaden gets ill he will not be taken to ar doctor. He will be taking vitamins. If he gets strep she wont give him anti biotics. She is against taking medicine. Except pot (eyeroll) Jaden only sees a pediatric homeopathic doctor. He is not areal doctor. . I fear for my grandson and can not further enable her to do him harm.

I am literally sick tonight but life goes on. Al Anon is tomorrow night. I look forward to it.

 

[elizabrary]

I agree that she likely has mental illness or is using drugs. And if she's using drugs it's likely to self-medicate whatever mental health issues she has. But the bottom line is that you can't force her to get mental health treatment, take medications, or go to rehab no matter what's going on with her. I also believe this would be a good time for a break for you. It will be a reset for your relationship and give you time to focus on what you should be focusing on- your own health and happiness. As I have relayed I have taken several breaks from my daughter, one of at least a year. At first it was difficult for several reasons: I was codependent and spent a huge amount of time and energy focusing on her so I didn't know what to do with myself, I missed my granddaughter, and I had to come to terms with my own issues since I could no longer focus on someone else's. But those breaks were very good for both of us and I have learned to keep my focus on myself (for the most part, I have better or worse days, I'm human!). The time and space also gave me some objectivity and helped me see my part in some of the issues. I loved to make passive aggressive statements to my daughter about her past behaviors or mistakes I saw her making, under the guise of being helpful. All I was doing was putting a match to kindling and setting off those horrible arguments. After I came to terms with that and focused on myself it made communicating with my daughter easier since I no longer felt the need to point out mistakes I saw her making or relive past issues. Once my focus was truly on myself I was able to let her live her life as she saw fit and stop my attempts to control her. I learned to create my own peace of mind and to maintain that no matter what chaos ensues around me. The early days are hard, so throw yourself into projects and do whatever you need to do to stay busy and stay in your own lane! Sending peace to you.

 

[Tanya M]

As a cancer survivor myself, had I chosen a total holistic approach, I would not be typing this now. I do believe in healthy eating (that old saying "you are what you eat") holds a lot of truth.
I know there are many that believe Big Pharma wants to keep people sick and there may be some truth to it but this isn't a one size fits all issue. I do my best to eat a clean diet and I pray I will never have to deal with cancer again but I also know that IF that happens I will work closely with my Dr.s to find the best options.

I know people who also think the way your daughter does. I do not engage into debate with them as there is no point. They are very closed minded in their thinking.

I feel so very bad for you that your daughter is so deep into this mindset that she thinks you would actually have your grandchild vaccinated without her knowing.

There are parents like your daughter who's child has become ill and the parents withhold conventional care and end up losing custody of the child. Family members will reach out and get a guardian ad litem to intercede on behalf of the child.

I'm so sorry for what you are dealing with. It's just so very sad. I hope you can find some peace.

 

[ahhjeez]

Unfortunately there is a growing population of people that do believe this. I see it all the time online. This has got to be agonizing for you and I just wanted to tell you how sorry I am. I think taking a break from her is a really good idea.

 

[Blindsided]

My daughter directs all her anger and blame at me too. I began to doubt myself and become depressed, because as it says in "Walking on Eggshells", I became the sponge instead of the mirror. I read everything I can get my hands on, have been in therapy, etc. etc. But, it wasn't until the abuse became so severe that those around me started to tell me the same thing I was trying to convey to my daughter, I make a choice to take it on or reject it. They reminded me I am valuable to those around me, that I have a right to shut my daughter out in order to save myself. I am still a work in progress, but I am a product of MY journey and the choices I make, no one else. Unless I am mentally healthy, there is no way I can help anyone else.

I set boundaries with my daughter that were very specific, I think I shared them with you in another thread. Lo and behold, my daughter sent me a short text on Mother's Day. It simply said, "Happy Mother's Day, I hope it is a great one for you." It ended with a kiss, prayer, and heart emoji. I kept my response short with a "thank you, that means a lot to me." Now I feel I have a reason to send periodic texts (we cannot talk on the phone, I am not strong enough yet) that thank her for respecting my boundaries, which the experts say will reinforce her acceptable behavior.

I do better when I take a break from my daughter and the constant crisis and chaos she lives in. I have blocked her in the past, and I have learned that's okay if I need a break to stay emotionally ready and not fall prey to her manipulation. I am not naive, past events predict she will slip up, but with each positive encounter I learn the value of sticking to what works, boundaries that protect me. I will be thinking of you.

 

[RN0441]

I think you have gotten great advice and even more powerful in my opinion is hearing from other moms here that are actually dealing with detaching from their daughter/son in real time.

It is hard work but it can be done (I have done it). I think that you desperately need a long break for your own mental health.

Remember, she doesn't need you to survive.

 

[newstart]

Kay just got finished yelling at me. She said, and this is a very short version:

1. I (meaning me) want to be naive and not know what is going on in this country with forced vaccinations for everyone by 2020. They are going to force us all to get deadly vaccinations, like the flu shot etc. This will make us sick and kill us. It's a means of population control, like in Australia, and Big Pharma is doing it.

2. My not believing that this is true makes me a bad grandmother. I am loving but naive and therefore unsafe to Jaden. How does she know I wont vaccinate him behind her back so because of this I cant see him.

3. She is serene because she KNOWS how to cure all diseases including cancer and if I.would only listen to her, I would never get sick. Its selfish of me not to listen to her tell me how to prevent getting cancer so that I can live a longer time for her and J. I should want to know how to prevent and cure cancer. It is cured all the time and you DONT need chemotherapy. Holistic medicine cures cancer and Big Pharma will never allow most of us to know this so they are murdering homeopathic doctors. Yep! 90 homeopathic doctors have been murdered by Big Pharma. There names are on the internet. (I looked this up and on alternative healthcare sites, this is a huge conspiracy).

4. Now my saying "I see" and "interesting" when I listen meanst i dont believe these things and I am making fun of her and that I dont really believe her but she did the research and I didnt. Meanwhile she isn't going to talk to me again because she knows I don't believe her. That means I think she us stupid and its me who is naive and stupid. (Never once did she say she was wrong. I would never hurt her that way. But to you guys I admit that I think this is so wacky that I am literally sick to my stomach. I feel like throwing up.)

She hung up telling me she doesnt want to talk to me anymore. I will nor be sending another letter.

I am blocking her and enough is enough. I was shaking and crying when I got off the phone. Since I always talk on speaker her father heard everything and wanted to grab the phone but I told him not to get involved. It would have made things worse. But he was hot.

I wonder if she is on hard drugs again. I wonder if she is more mentally ill. I am here for Kay, but not if she is going to abuse me. And her dad. She was throwing in zingers about him too. "Dad will stick up for YOU no matter what! Tell him I wont talk to him either. $#&@ both of you!"

I am more okay than I should be. I think I realize this is not normal and I need to move on. My husband looks shell shocked. I dont think he has moved for ten minutes. I know we will talk later but we are not ready to yet.

Am I doing the right thing? I get scared when she talks about these vaccines and diseases. Its weird.[/QUOTE

Hi Kay, I have been following your posts. I have a 37 year old daughter that says the same things your daughter says. When I go to my daughter's house she has an entire counter filled with essential oils and other organic things. The weird thing about it is that my daughter has actually helped many people that come to her. When I run into these people that she has helped they tell me stories about how no one ever could cure this but she did. (My daughter is a compulsive liar) so if I did not hear this with from all these other people I would not believe it. One of my friends suffered from C-diff and had it for a long time until my daughter mixed some stuff together and cured it. When ever my husband or I get sick she comes up with mixtures of stuff that I have seen help my husband. If I feel my daughter is manic I do not trust any of her mixtures. My daughter is all about conspiracy theories and she is the expert on all things political.

I feel your heart break and confusion and not knowing what to do next. Tell your daughter to F off and walk away. (Talking from experience, it was the best thing I did.)

 

[Blindsided]

Well, you were prepared. It's so hard to remember what we have read about approaching our children with these disorders. I do better if I clarify my daughter's feelings than take on what she says, i.e. anger, fear, etc. I tell her when her words hurt. I have learned her delutions are her way of coping and real to her. This has been years in the making. I have had to reevaluate my goals, which at this point is just a kind exchange via text only to know she is alive. I pray everyday she will fight back against her demons. Only she can do that.

So many good responses. It helps me too.

 

[BusynMember1]

My ex will tell me if Jaden is sick.

My ex is very immune compromised yet Kay keeps badgering him to stop getting flu shots. Fortunately he will never listen to that.

But Jaden has no choice. Getting closer to calling CPS with husband. Jaden is not just unvaccinated, which is not a crime yet, but he has never seen a real doctor. She and Lee dont believe in medication like anti biotics and chemo and insulin. She only believes in vitamins. So he is loaded with vitamins and fruit although he also eats candy and fast food.

I talked to my therapist and a crisis worker I know and both enciuraged me to call. The pot that is blown in his face and domestic violence in front of Jaden worries them very much as well as the potential for serious untreated illness AND his isolation. Jaden is always at home with the parents. No school or classes. No family. Just them. If Jaden gets sick, who will see if he is not being treated for it?

On the other hand, I dont know. Its my daughter and who knows if CPS will do anything?

I just want to run away. This is torture.

 

[Copabanana]

I have learned her delutions are her way of coping and real to her.

This is a good way to look at it. Helpful to me. Thank you.

If Jaden gets sick, who will see if he is not being treated for it?

But then, maybe if he got sick, this would alert his mother to do something. Maybe she would respond. I believe she would.

One of the truisms about seriously mental ill people (I know you said you don't believe she is mentally ill), is that when there is an actual crisis, and they have to pull it together and respond to reality, they often do.

 

[BusynMember1]

He has been sick and she wont take him to a doctor or ER. In fact she is more afraid of medication and doctors than his illness. To her doctors and Big Pharma are killing people for population control.

I don't know if Kay is seriously mentally ill or drugged up or brainwashed or all three. With her mindset I believe she would never take Jaden to a doctor. Not to mention she doesnt want him to get vaccinations.

 

[ahhjeez]

Sadly this isn't really uncommon for people quite far down the rabbit hole with the whole anti-vax cult. It never ceases to amaze me how many people are truly so distrustful of the medical establishment that they will risk the illness over taking the treatment. I see it over and over online.

 

[susiestar]

I am sorry she is this way. It is truly important to contact CPS about her behavior, especially if you suspect she is doing drugs. Pot use by a minor is illegal, and blowing pot smoke around your kid is just as dangeorus as having him smoke a joint. It is HARD to call the cops on people you care about, but you MUST put a dependent child's welfare above that of an adult. The adult is making the choices, and the kid suffers from them. It just isn't safe to leave her child with her with no safety net to make sure he is safe. It may be that she blames you for the call and won't ever speak to you again. If it protects Jaden, it is IMPORTANT to call CPS. Often as RESPONSIBLE adults, we have to place the important above the sad or upsetting. Jaden isn't being given any choices here, and it could result in serious harm or death.

I DID report a family member to CPS years ago. It caused some major problems between me and my family, but the behavior was completely out of line and help was provided and accepted. Sadly, I didn't have the first hand knowledge of later problems when my niece was left with her junkie mother and her junkie mother's boyfriends. My folks knew what was going on, and provided $$ to help when the lights would be shut off or she bought drugs instead of paying rent. At as young as SIX, my niece would have to go into my parents house and ask for money so they wouldn't be "homeless" or whatever. If my parents had withheld the $$, Niece would have been taken away, saving YEARS of abuse.

Think about Jaden. Do what is best for him. He should be the focus. You cannot force his mother to get help, but you can force her to let Jaden get help.

I am sorry you are in this situation. It really is awful and painful. Pull away from Kay. She simply is not ready to get help, and she may never be. Don't continue to let her abuse you.

 

[BusynMember1]

Thank you, Susie. I will take a deep breath and make the call. It will be hard. I don't trust CPS. Yet right now there is nobody else to tell

Jaden's isolation makes him vulnerable. Since he has never been in a school or even classes because Kay and Lee are terrified that somebody will force Jaden to get shots there is nobody to notice if he gets sick or acts abnormally. He already has crazy tantrums but nobody sees them. He has little family now. Its just crazy Lee and Crazy Kay. There are no close friends. He is in effect living like a child in a farmhouse in the middle of nowhere. Yet he lives in a big city with neighbors they dont talk to. They don't socialize. No friends come over.

If they had any social circle or Jaden was in school I would not call. But there is NOBODY! He could have strep throat, which Kay used to get a lot, and Jaden would not be taken to an evil doctor. Or take evil antibiotics. So they need to be watched. Hopefully that will happen.

This is the best I can do. Once I do it, thats all I can do.

 

[Triedntrue]

If it helps i believe you are doing the right thing. If you are seeing a councelor and tell him/her they are mandatory reporters. So are doctors even if they haven't seen him i think they have to report. My councelor reported my ex daughter in law. At the very least you will be able to find out he is ok.

 

[Copabanana]

This is the best I can do. Once I do it, thats all I can do.

I do not doubt this is a wise and responsible course, to call CPS. Whether or not it will bear fruit, I don't know.

I don't necessarily trust the authorities to do the right thing, but often they do. But right now you do have communication with Kay, unpleasant as it is. This communication gives you some insight into what is happening. Your decision now is whether or not Jaden's circumstance rises to the level where CPS will intervene in a way that will help your grandson, as opposed to making a visit, and doing nothing. If this happens the communication between you will likely stop. This puts Jaden at risk too.

I think I might call my local CPS and speak with a supervisor about the situation without giving names, only to get a sense of how they would respond.

I think the right thing is to call CPS. But even right things to do can have adverse consequences. Because we do not control outcome. Just intent.

 

[BusynMember1]

No, Kay wrote me that I am not her mother, that I have never been her mother, that I need to move on without her.

My therapist read her texts and said she hated to have to tell me this but that Kay sounds like she is "not right."

She blocked me.

There is nothing I can do but call cps. If they do nothing, then if something happens it is on CPS. I did all I can.

I miss them but refuse to let this ruin my life.