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<blockquote data-quote="Marguerite" data-source="post: 180093" data-attributes="member: 1991"><p>Hi, Carla. </p><p></p><p>You poor thing - and your poor son, such a lot to deal with.</p><p></p><p>He sounds like a decent kid under all this, and it sounds as if, despite everything you've both been through, that you've been really trying hard to give him a good, consistent upbringing. You would have had problems much sooner if this had been simply a parenting issue.</p><p></p><p>I have no clues as to what they will determine in the hospital. That is something totally alien to me here in Australia. But a couple of things I feel I should emphasise - </p><p></p><p>1) I have a difficult child with a clear and obvious diagnosis of high-functioning autism. He seemed initially to be a easy child, with high abilities. The problems showed up as he got older and still wasn't talking. His older brother had no language delay to tip us off. But otherwise - VERY similar to what you describe. Amazingly similar.</p><p></p><p>2) A lot of this is in how you handle them. A kid with impulse control issues, or with a need to be in control of his environment (and with all you've been through, including Katrina, this would be very understandable) would need to be directed to tasks carefully. You don't do it by forcing him, dragging him, or insisting on instant compliance. Instead, you give warnings of need to change task as well as a good reason. For example, difficult child 3 playing a computer game, he's just got to a new level he's never reached before, he's excited about this new achievement - then I come along and shut off the game because he has ignored me three times already when I called him to have his bath. And he swears he didn't hear me - with his excitement, he probably didn't.</p><p>So what I do instead - I ask him if he can either pause the game now, or tell me how soon he can get to a point where he can either save or pause. We then write this down on a Post-It note and stick it where he can see it. I then revisit the situation and check. This gets me good compliance. I don't yell, so he doesn't.</p><p></p><p>3) If my difficult child 3 had been in the situations you describe that your son was in, and he began to rage in ways that were escalated by the environment and situation, he would say and do the same things your son did. I'm not saying your son was in the right, only that it's highly likely that what he did was perfectly logical, from his point of view given the combination of how he was handled and how he has been feeling. There doesn't need to be anything huge wrong with him, for a situation to get as badly out of hand as this one did. I've found with difficult child 3, to not let things get out of hand. But there have been times when people didn't know him well enough and DID let things get out of hand. For example, at his last mainstream school difficult child 3 was walking from his classroom to the school hall when he remembered that he had in his hand a book his class teacher (Mr A) had asked him to put on his desk. But Mr A was not there, and the teacher supervising, Ms B, refused to let difficult child 3 go back to put the book on Mr A's desk. difficult child 3 became increasingly frantic and loudly argumentative, insisting that he had to do as he had been told. Ms B tried the authoritative approach ("you will do as I say, NOW") and was met with increasing resistance from difficult child 3. By the time they got to the school hall (about two minutes) difficult child 3 was being verbally abusive, physically threatening and violent. They had to get everyone else out of the school hall because difficult child 3 was in there, throwing chairs and whatever else he could get his hands on. If someone had gone in there and physically restrained him, I know it would have escalated even further. Luckily someone called the principal who thankfully understood difficult child 3. Mr A was called and he sorted the problem out by taking the book from difficult child 3 and making it clear he wasn't in trouble for not putting the book on his desk, although he WAS in trouble for throwing chairs! No further action was taken because the principal and Mr A both considered the problem had been mainly due to Ms B's lack of understanding of how to appropriately manage difficult child 3. However, it was written down in difficult child 3's communication book so I could have my own written record of the incident. And for me, it became the deciding factor to pull difficult child 3 out of mainstream permanently. There are too few Mr As in the world, and too many Ms Bs.</p><p></p><p>Whatever is the problem with your son, keep an open mind and keep helping him the best you can. Don't beat yourself up over what you can't change. And recognise that a great many kids could have reacted like this. All it takes is an initial problem that gets out of control.</p><p></p><p>I'm not saying your son hasn't got a serious underlying mental health disorder. He could well have,especially considering all you've been through. But it's equally possible that he's just had enough, and lashed out; then things just got too far out of hand. If he's got a short fuse, or has impulse control issues, or has difficulty task-changing (for all sorts of reasons) then any one of those could be a trigger for these problems that keep happening.</p><p></p><p>difficult child 3 has a short fuse. He has impulse control issues. Plus he has difficulty task-changing, which always led to a lot of problems in mainstream school settings. difficult child 3 also doesn't view people as being different to him - for difficult child 3, everyone is equal. That means he sees himself on an equal footing with teachers, parents, younger children, babies, total strangers - everyone. A teacher being sarcastic to him - he doesn't understand. A teacher might say to him, "Take this ball to the store-room now," and difficult child 3 might reply, "Why? I didn't get it out, I wasn't using it." And he would use the same tone of voice the teacher used to him. If the teacher felt a desperate need to save face, a bad situation could develop.</p><p>And nothing we could do, could teach difficult child 3 to not behave this way. The only way to teach him to behave, was to behave properly towards him - to set the example to him. We've learned - difficult child 3 dishes out exactly what he receives, because that is how he learns what is appropriate.</p><p></p><p>There can be many reasons for this. For difficult child 3, it's connected to his autism. </p><p></p><p>Medication for ADHD has helped difficult child 3 a great deal. Without it, he just doesn't function, especially in a classroom environment.</p><p></p><p>I remember when I was a kid at school, aged about 7, I had a couple of incidents where for various reasons, I misbehaved. I was at a new school and finding it rather confronting. The school was much bigger than my old school and kids were alternately very nice because I was new, or very mean because I was not what they expected and the novelty was wearing off. I remember trying to talk to one girl who had been chatty to begin with and I really wanted to be friends with me. She was wearing the sports uniform, a tunic with a tasselled cord round the waist. I had never seen one before and it looked really pretty, the tassel very silky. I asked her if I could touch the tassel to feel if it felt as silky as it looked, and she said no, very meanly. So I bit her. And she tattled. I then felt really bad, although I was still very angry with the girl for being so mean. The teacher sent me to sit "over there" and I didn't know exactly where she meant, so I found some bushes nearby and hid there for the rest of the afternoon. I did hear them looking for me but stayed hidden. Nothing further was ever said or done.</p><p>These days - the situation could well have been escalated to nasty levels.</p><p>I had never bitten anyone before or since. As I "learned the ropes" I felt less insecure and more able to cope with the wider range of personalities and to not react so inappropriately. I also learned that the girl I'd bitten who had SEEMED so nice initially, WAS one of the mean girls and I stopped caring what she said or did. But at the time - I just wanted to die. I felt so bad inside, I had done something very childish for a very petty reason, but all my frustration had just welled up and biting had felt like the only thing left for me to do.</p><p></p><p>We expect kids to be able to act with reasons we understand, as adults. But to a kid, actions, impulses and reasons can be very different. And they can't always explain it to us.</p><p></p><p>I hope you get some answers than can help your son. In the meantime, don't be too alarmed by the depth of emotions he expresses. Childhood is NOT a happy time for most of us, but too many adults forget this. I hated my childhood, I spent a lot of it very miserable and resenting the lack of respect I got and lack of control I was permitted over my own choices. I longed for adulthood, when I could be seen as an individual and be permitted to make my own decisions without being patronised. </p><p></p><p>And now I AM an adult - I do not look back with amusement at the presumption of a small child. Because I know that small child was right to feel angry at being treated in such a cavalier fashion.</p><p></p><p>Marg</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Marguerite, post: 180093, member: 1991"] Hi, Carla. You poor thing - and your poor son, such a lot to deal with. He sounds like a decent kid under all this, and it sounds as if, despite everything you've both been through, that you've been really trying hard to give him a good, consistent upbringing. You would have had problems much sooner if this had been simply a parenting issue. I have no clues as to what they will determine in the hospital. That is something totally alien to me here in Australia. But a couple of things I feel I should emphasise - 1) I have a difficult child with a clear and obvious diagnosis of high-functioning autism. He seemed initially to be a easy child, with high abilities. The problems showed up as he got older and still wasn't talking. His older brother had no language delay to tip us off. But otherwise - VERY similar to what you describe. Amazingly similar. 2) A lot of this is in how you handle them. A kid with impulse control issues, or with a need to be in control of his environment (and with all you've been through, including Katrina, this would be very understandable) would need to be directed to tasks carefully. You don't do it by forcing him, dragging him, or insisting on instant compliance. Instead, you give warnings of need to change task as well as a good reason. For example, difficult child 3 playing a computer game, he's just got to a new level he's never reached before, he's excited about this new achievement - then I come along and shut off the game because he has ignored me three times already when I called him to have his bath. And he swears he didn't hear me - with his excitement, he probably didn't. So what I do instead - I ask him if he can either pause the game now, or tell me how soon he can get to a point where he can either save or pause. We then write this down on a Post-It note and stick it where he can see it. I then revisit the situation and check. This gets me good compliance. I don't yell, so he doesn't. 3) If my difficult child 3 had been in the situations you describe that your son was in, and he began to rage in ways that were escalated by the environment and situation, he would say and do the same things your son did. I'm not saying your son was in the right, only that it's highly likely that what he did was perfectly logical, from his point of view given the combination of how he was handled and how he has been feeling. There doesn't need to be anything huge wrong with him, for a situation to get as badly out of hand as this one did. I've found with difficult child 3, to not let things get out of hand. But there have been times when people didn't know him well enough and DID let things get out of hand. For example, at his last mainstream school difficult child 3 was walking from his classroom to the school hall when he remembered that he had in his hand a book his class teacher (Mr A) had asked him to put on his desk. But Mr A was not there, and the teacher supervising, Ms B, refused to let difficult child 3 go back to put the book on Mr A's desk. difficult child 3 became increasingly frantic and loudly argumentative, insisting that he had to do as he had been told. Ms B tried the authoritative approach ("you will do as I say, NOW") and was met with increasing resistance from difficult child 3. By the time they got to the school hall (about two minutes) difficult child 3 was being verbally abusive, physically threatening and violent. They had to get everyone else out of the school hall because difficult child 3 was in there, throwing chairs and whatever else he could get his hands on. If someone had gone in there and physically restrained him, I know it would have escalated even further. Luckily someone called the principal who thankfully understood difficult child 3. Mr A was called and he sorted the problem out by taking the book from difficult child 3 and making it clear he wasn't in trouble for not putting the book on his desk, although he WAS in trouble for throwing chairs! No further action was taken because the principal and Mr A both considered the problem had been mainly due to Ms B's lack of understanding of how to appropriately manage difficult child 3. However, it was written down in difficult child 3's communication book so I could have my own written record of the incident. And for me, it became the deciding factor to pull difficult child 3 out of mainstream permanently. There are too few Mr As in the world, and too many Ms Bs. Whatever is the problem with your son, keep an open mind and keep helping him the best you can. Don't beat yourself up over what you can't change. And recognise that a great many kids could have reacted like this. All it takes is an initial problem that gets out of control. I'm not saying your son hasn't got a serious underlying mental health disorder. He could well have,especially considering all you've been through. But it's equally possible that he's just had enough, and lashed out; then things just got too far out of hand. If he's got a short fuse, or has impulse control issues, or has difficulty task-changing (for all sorts of reasons) then any one of those could be a trigger for these problems that keep happening. difficult child 3 has a short fuse. He has impulse control issues. Plus he has difficulty task-changing, which always led to a lot of problems in mainstream school settings. difficult child 3 also doesn't view people as being different to him - for difficult child 3, everyone is equal. That means he sees himself on an equal footing with teachers, parents, younger children, babies, total strangers - everyone. A teacher being sarcastic to him - he doesn't understand. A teacher might say to him, "Take this ball to the store-room now," and difficult child 3 might reply, "Why? I didn't get it out, I wasn't using it." And he would use the same tone of voice the teacher used to him. If the teacher felt a desperate need to save face, a bad situation could develop. And nothing we could do, could teach difficult child 3 to not behave this way. The only way to teach him to behave, was to behave properly towards him - to set the example to him. We've learned - difficult child 3 dishes out exactly what he receives, because that is how he learns what is appropriate. There can be many reasons for this. For difficult child 3, it's connected to his autism. Medication for ADHD has helped difficult child 3 a great deal. Without it, he just doesn't function, especially in a classroom environment. I remember when I was a kid at school, aged about 7, I had a couple of incidents where for various reasons, I misbehaved. I was at a new school and finding it rather confronting. The school was much bigger than my old school and kids were alternately very nice because I was new, or very mean because I was not what they expected and the novelty was wearing off. I remember trying to talk to one girl who had been chatty to begin with and I really wanted to be friends with me. She was wearing the sports uniform, a tunic with a tasselled cord round the waist. I had never seen one before and it looked really pretty, the tassel very silky. I asked her if I could touch the tassel to feel if it felt as silky as it looked, and she said no, very meanly. So I bit her. And she tattled. I then felt really bad, although I was still very angry with the girl for being so mean. The teacher sent me to sit "over there" and I didn't know exactly where she meant, so I found some bushes nearby and hid there for the rest of the afternoon. I did hear them looking for me but stayed hidden. Nothing further was ever said or done. These days - the situation could well have been escalated to nasty levels. I had never bitten anyone before or since. As I "learned the ropes" I felt less insecure and more able to cope with the wider range of personalities and to not react so inappropriately. I also learned that the girl I'd bitten who had SEEMED so nice initially, WAS one of the mean girls and I stopped caring what she said or did. But at the time - I just wanted to die. I felt so bad inside, I had done something very childish for a very petty reason, but all my frustration had just welled up and biting had felt like the only thing left for me to do. We expect kids to be able to act with reasons we understand, as adults. But to a kid, actions, impulses and reasons can be very different. And they can't always explain it to us. I hope you get some answers than can help your son. In the meantime, don't be too alarmed by the depth of emotions he expresses. Childhood is NOT a happy time for most of us, but too many adults forget this. I hated my childhood, I spent a lot of it very miserable and resenting the lack of respect I got and lack of control I was permitted over my own choices. I longed for adulthood, when I could be seen as an individual and be permitted to make my own decisions without being patronised. And now I AM an adult - I do not look back with amusement at the presumption of a small child. Because I know that small child was right to feel angry at being treated in such a cavalier fashion. Marg [/QUOTE]
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