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POW/hostage, a Normal or weird Childhood games?
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<blockquote data-quote="Marguerite" data-source="post: 366589" data-attributes="member: 1991"><p>Yes, that was sending alarm bells to me, too. The kid who 'thoughtfully' brought more rope is either the instigator, or well under the thumb of the instigator. </p><p></p><p>No, I don't have a psychology degree, but I have studied child psychology as part or my teacher training. husband studied psychiatric as part of his uni studies. Plus I have kept up my reading and informal studies. In those studies I recall (film - I think from Stanford) an experiment where volunteers were divided into two teams - prisoners and guards. They became so institutionalised so fast (both groups adapting to their roles too realistically) that a lot of new information on the lower qualities of human nature were revealed. Guards became sadistic and abusive; prisoners became passive, resentful, disoriented and in a lot of cases damaged and had to be removed. I think it got stopped early.</p><p></p><p>Another experiment you may have heard of - volunteers were told to give electric shocks to a 'victim' hidden behind a screen. The volunteers were ordered to do this or that, mostly with verbal justification for the level of shock to be given. Of course, no real shocks were given but the screams were realistically provided by actors. The horror was, volunteers would deliver the shocks even when they knew it was causing pain; in some cases, the volunteers pushed the dial past the known lethal level, because they were ordered to. Again, an outcome of this experiment was just how far we will go, merely to carry out an order. We abdicate thinking for ourselves when a controlling person takes over. </p><p></p><p>How does this relate to the game play you describe? Well, the kids who are the ones tied up more are already in 'victim' mode and teaching our kid to be victims is not good. Now, if the roles are evenly reversed and all kid get equal time as victim and interrogator, tat is different. But I suspect that is not happening here. Again - you need to find this out. Is one kid always in control and playing the spy master, or person in control of the interrogation? And that kid is never the tied up spy? In which case, step in and point out that this is unfair, he has to experience both sides. You also need to be able to observe, even if you choose to not interfere. They ALL need to experience both sides, in order to continue to develop their own ideas of what is fair, what is right and what is appropriate.</p><p></p><p>I also want to distinguish again between sex, and rape. Rape is the ultimate degradation and control of a person. By involving a sex act, it is designed more to degrade and dominate than to be a genuinely 'normal' sexual experience. However, an older child who is at some level beginning to be aware of and interested in sex could be getting some subtle 'kick' from such control games. Tickling is very much about sex and domination, when it is conducted by an older male on a younger female and especially if they don't stop when asked. Again, it is domination. The laughter of the victim does NOT imply compliance; however, the perpetrator often uses the victim's laughter as a justification and permission to continue tis behaviour. My close friend had concerns like this with her ex-h and their daughter; he would tickle her mercilessly, wouldn't stop. She was 5 years old and he already had a record as a rapist. He was violently abusive in the marriage and she says the best thing he ever did was walk out on them. She later discovered he had molested both kids (son, 3 and daughter, 5).</p><p></p><p>A suggestion - if kids want to keep playing these games, and they can satisfy you that the games are fair (everyone gets equal time in all roles) and they still want to physically tie up one another, then use pantyhose. It is soft, it stretches, it is a reminder to role-players that "In this story, I am currently a prisoner" but if they need to release themselves, it stretches to release easily. It could be a compromise with the kids; if the game play began innocently but is beginning to get off track, this is a way to get it back on track. If it is NOT innocent, again requiring these changes will quickly show if one or more kids is dissatisfied with the downgrading of the game to something more acceptable. But again, it is likely that suggesting a change to either no tying up or using something soft and escapable will make some of the kids at least, happier. If you tell them as a group, then the stronger one (if this is a problem) will object and all the kids will echo this so as not to cause a confrontation or later ridicule. But if you suggest individually when you get each kid alone, you might get a different response. </p><p></p><p>I also would have a quiet word with the other parents. Not in any alarmist way, just say, "Are you aware that the kids are playing this game? Do you have any idea where they thought of it? I'm at a bit of a loss."</p><p></p><p>As for cowboys & indians and similar games - yes, kids have done this. But not with real weapons. We used to use stockings as ropes when I was a kid, but mostly if we used rope it was to tie it to a tree branch and make a swing. Some favourite games we played more than others, were generally 'fair' games, where all players got an equal time. </p><p></p><p>Role playing games from my childhood that did NOT work because they were unfair, did not get played again much more. We used to play Samurai warriors (a very Aussie/Japanese thing from the TV series which you might not have had in the US). I remember getting beaten up by neighbourhood boys who got too enthusiastic when they labelled me a shadow ninja. I went home in a huff and they promised not to play Samurai with me again. Another friend wanted to play school, but only if she got to be teacher and I was student. She insisted on using a ruler to smack me on the fingers when she said I gave a wrong answer (she had no idea). So again, I stopped playing because I didn't like it. SHE went home in a huff! </p><p></p><p>Unfair games don't get re-played, unless some regular player is exerting unfair and constant control. If that is happening it needs to be stopped.</p><p></p><p>Marg</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Marguerite, post: 366589, member: 1991"] Yes, that was sending alarm bells to me, too. The kid who 'thoughtfully' brought more rope is either the instigator, or well under the thumb of the instigator. No, I don't have a psychology degree, but I have studied child psychology as part or my teacher training. husband studied psychiatric as part of his uni studies. Plus I have kept up my reading and informal studies. In those studies I recall (film - I think from Stanford) an experiment where volunteers were divided into two teams - prisoners and guards. They became so institutionalised so fast (both groups adapting to their roles too realistically) that a lot of new information on the lower qualities of human nature were revealed. Guards became sadistic and abusive; prisoners became passive, resentful, disoriented and in a lot of cases damaged and had to be removed. I think it got stopped early. Another experiment you may have heard of - volunteers were told to give electric shocks to a 'victim' hidden behind a screen. The volunteers were ordered to do this or that, mostly with verbal justification for the level of shock to be given. Of course, no real shocks were given but the screams were realistically provided by actors. The horror was, volunteers would deliver the shocks even when they knew it was causing pain; in some cases, the volunteers pushed the dial past the known lethal level, because they were ordered to. Again, an outcome of this experiment was just how far we will go, merely to carry out an order. We abdicate thinking for ourselves when a controlling person takes over. How does this relate to the game play you describe? Well, the kids who are the ones tied up more are already in 'victim' mode and teaching our kid to be victims is not good. Now, if the roles are evenly reversed and all kid get equal time as victim and interrogator, tat is different. But I suspect that is not happening here. Again - you need to find this out. Is one kid always in control and playing the spy master, or person in control of the interrogation? And that kid is never the tied up spy? In which case, step in and point out that this is unfair, he has to experience both sides. You also need to be able to observe, even if you choose to not interfere. They ALL need to experience both sides, in order to continue to develop their own ideas of what is fair, what is right and what is appropriate. I also want to distinguish again between sex, and rape. Rape is the ultimate degradation and control of a person. By involving a sex act, it is designed more to degrade and dominate than to be a genuinely 'normal' sexual experience. However, an older child who is at some level beginning to be aware of and interested in sex could be getting some subtle 'kick' from such control games. Tickling is very much about sex and domination, when it is conducted by an older male on a younger female and especially if they don't stop when asked. Again, it is domination. The laughter of the victim does NOT imply compliance; however, the perpetrator often uses the victim's laughter as a justification and permission to continue tis behaviour. My close friend had concerns like this with her ex-h and their daughter; he would tickle her mercilessly, wouldn't stop. She was 5 years old and he already had a record as a rapist. He was violently abusive in the marriage and she says the best thing he ever did was walk out on them. She later discovered he had molested both kids (son, 3 and daughter, 5). A suggestion - if kids want to keep playing these games, and they can satisfy you that the games are fair (everyone gets equal time in all roles) and they still want to physically tie up one another, then use pantyhose. It is soft, it stretches, it is a reminder to role-players that "In this story, I am currently a prisoner" but if they need to release themselves, it stretches to release easily. It could be a compromise with the kids; if the game play began innocently but is beginning to get off track, this is a way to get it back on track. If it is NOT innocent, again requiring these changes will quickly show if one or more kids is dissatisfied with the downgrading of the game to something more acceptable. But again, it is likely that suggesting a change to either no tying up or using something soft and escapable will make some of the kids at least, happier. If you tell them as a group, then the stronger one (if this is a problem) will object and all the kids will echo this so as not to cause a confrontation or later ridicule. But if you suggest individually when you get each kid alone, you might get a different response. I also would have a quiet word with the other parents. Not in any alarmist way, just say, "Are you aware that the kids are playing this game? Do you have any idea where they thought of it? I'm at a bit of a loss." As for cowboys & indians and similar games - yes, kids have done this. But not with real weapons. We used to use stockings as ropes when I was a kid, but mostly if we used rope it was to tie it to a tree branch and make a swing. Some favourite games we played more than others, were generally 'fair' games, where all players got an equal time. Role playing games from my childhood that did NOT work because they were unfair, did not get played again much more. We used to play Samurai warriors (a very Aussie/Japanese thing from the TV series which you might not have had in the US). I remember getting beaten up by neighbourhood boys who got too enthusiastic when they labelled me a shadow ninja. I went home in a huff and they promised not to play Samurai with me again. Another friend wanted to play school, but only if she got to be teacher and I was student. She insisted on using a ruler to smack me on the fingers when she said I gave a wrong answer (she had no idea). So again, I stopped playing because I didn't like it. SHE went home in a huff! Unfair games don't get re-played, unless some regular player is exerting unfair and constant control. If that is happening it needs to be stopped. Marg [/QUOTE]
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