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Self-Forgiveness
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<blockquote data-quote="Copabanana" data-source="post: 667627" data-attributes="member: 18958"><p>Yes. Having the perspective of 24 hours and the benefit of your beautiful post, I agree with you: Where some other people have a reservoir of goodwill within them, through which to understand actions by others where intent is unknown...I can react with fear...that I did something wrong...and do not know what.</p><p></p><p>And you are correct, Cedar, that as of yet, I do not have a dependable practice through which, alone, I can come to see with the eyes and strengths of the adult I am. </p><p></p><p>For your help, I thank you. I still need help to see that I have a choice of whose eyes I see through. It seems this situation is either like the earlier one with Modesta, or I remain still limited in the same way. This time I did not re-act by doing anything. But I folded my tent and left. Because I could only see the situation through a child's eyes: to accept danger or to leave it.</p><p>I could not remember that I had decided to stay because I had decided to learn how to respond in a different way. To no longer run away or react the same way. That I had wanted to learn to respond as did Joseph. Viewing as inconsequential any actions of others, as defining him.</p><p>You well know and said it better than can I: there is a reservoir of shame/guilt ready at hand. The self-definition as bad, undeserving of voice, asking too much. That safety is too much to ask.</p><p>See above.</p><p>Cedar, I am willing to accept that there is something in me, a lens through which I am perceiving that I need to understand and to expunge. A growing sense I have of meanness. Of P/C. Of cliques. Of sorority-type convention, and shunning if one breaks the rules. </p><p>It is not to blame. It is to be responsible. Blame comes from the past. We seek to be responsible.</p><p>Yes. I agree.</p><p>I think so. Think about my Mother when she targeted my toddler son for her rage because I fell chasing him. And look at the sequence of events. The stressful conversation between her and I. His reacting to the tension by running. My falling while chasing him. My mother blaming my son. Holding him responsible. </p><p></p><p>How could a baby ever make sense of being targeted with rage....for something so far from his control or understanding, so little proximate to a behavior for which he was responsible. My mother was angry at me...for choices I had made for years, before my son had been born. She put that on him. In all of those times that that happened to the toddler and girls we were, how did we feel about ourselves and our world?</p><p></p><p>How many countless events resulted in the same self-blame...for things that only could have resulted because we were bad, undeserving children that wanted too much attention, and were too much trouble, or felt so?</p><p>Yes.</p><p>Yes. In my case foster care.</p><p>That is why I throw in the towel so easily when cleaning and organizing because I can never and could not ever do it well enough.</p><p> I believe Joseph cried for sadness for his brothers, in a way. That they remained trapped in self-limiting ways of thinking. But I think he cried for himself, that he remained without family. That because they could not be different, he was alone. Just as you, Cedar, and I, and Serenity may cry for ourselves.</p><p></p><p>The example with Daphne fits this perfectly. Serenity was not in the main hurt by Daphne. She was concerned for her sister. That her sister was so worked up and upset that she would act out in this way. She sought to soothe her. To take away that which might inflame her.</p><p></p><p>And next, Serenity felt loss of her sister. And she re-examined what had transpired prior to their break, to see if there was another way to understand the sequence of events. So that she could have her sister once again. She could not see it differently. But she tried.</p><p></p><p>Joseph is to be admired (after almost 8000 years, I would guess he is), for his emotional honesty. Like you said, his flexibility. He was naked. Without judgment. Without preconception. He could own reality and himself in it.</p><p></p><p>I do not think Joseph has compassion for the bad acts of his brothers. He has "understanding" of them, in the sense of the Greek definition of forgiveness which I posted above.</p><p></p><p>Joseph is able to distinguish between the act and the person. He condemns the sin and loves the sinner. Yuck. I am not there yet.</p><p></p><p>But the thing is, Cedar, I think we love our sisters. I am enraged at my sister for being such a jerk. For the things she does to me and to others. For her falsity. For her hypocrisy. </p><p></p><p>The thing is, all this rage and contempt I feel is wasted on her. She feels not one bit of this rage. Who is all contorted and embittered trying to accommodate all of this ambivalence, towards somebody who at heart, I love? Me.</p><p></p><p>I do not know how to do what Joseph did, either.</p><p></p><p>But again the event with the removed post is an example. Fear of danger. And the need to protect oneself.</p><p></p><p>Who wants to feel weak? Or unsafe. Or targeted. Or muzzled. Not wanted. Or ridiculed. Or gossiped about.</p><p></p><p>Is it not a survival instinct to perceive danger and to respond? Does that not trump all else?</p><p></p><p>If danger has been the most likely environmental condition...is it not a basic law of survival to perceive its possible arrival? And to respond to it? Proactively. </p><p></p><p>If your internalized world...is that...danger...what is the most congruent response to an event the causation of which is unknown...when there has been recent, unanticipated danger? </p><p></p><p>My thinking about whether to continue posting here...was not a purely psychological phenomena....It was based upon recent events, my psychology, and the fact that I have been using this forum to uncover and examine scary things. To entertain the possibility of changing...by opening myself up to risk.</p><p></p><p>It has to be a rational act to examine and to re-assess whether to continue to do so here...makes sense. </p><p></p><p>But when I do so, I need to take into account factors in me that I want to change...and how I can responsibly change them...weighed against risks. That is true. </p><p>Cedar, I read a book awhile ago. By a Russian Psychologist of almost 100 years ago. I will look for it. I may have mentioned it before. This man says this, more or less: We do not have the capacity until we are about 30 or later to really be people. Everything to this point is programming, by parents and by society and culture. We are like automatons. Like machines. He goes further and says, there is no way we can really know ourselves and to constitute ourselves as conscious beings unless we have a community of fellows, like we have created among the 3 of us. We cannot see ourselves fully alone. </p><p></p><p>From what you have shared it seems you have been in the process of self-examination since your mid-thirties. You were right on schedule.</p><p></p><p>The way you and I ended up <em>and everybody else </em>was contingent upon the environment in which we interacted and matured. You can say that we were unlucky. But in ways we were not. Not because anybody was able to give us anything or make it easy. But because we were forced to grow in rocky, marginal soil, with many environmental challenges, and we had to adapt and understand complicated, subtle and confounding things. Most importantly we yearned for better. For more.</p><p></p><p>How boring it could have been. How dull. How conventional we could have been. Trapped in vanilla goodness (actually, I love vanilla).</p><p>Our hope and energy is for our children. With them you are realizing your dinner. It starts as a picnic. Maybe then a buffet. Soon you will pull out your sterling flatware and Limoges to set the table with candles and a Martha Stewart tablescape.</p><p></p><p>Thank you Cedar.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Copabanana, post: 667627, member: 18958"] Yes. Having the perspective of 24 hours and the benefit of your beautiful post, I agree with you: Where some other people have a reservoir of goodwill within them, through which to understand actions by others where intent is unknown...I can react with fear...that I did something wrong...and do not know what. And you are correct, Cedar, that as of yet, I do not have a dependable practice through which, alone, I can come to see with the eyes and strengths of the adult I am. For your help, I thank you. I still need help to see that I have a choice of whose eyes I see through. It seems this situation is either like the earlier one with Modesta, or I remain still limited in the same way. This time I did not re-act by doing anything. But I folded my tent and left. Because I could only see the situation through a child's eyes: to accept danger or to leave it. I could not remember that I had decided to stay because I had decided to learn how to respond in a different way. To no longer run away or react the same way. That I had wanted to learn to respond as did Joseph. Viewing as inconsequential any actions of others, as defining him. You well know and said it better than can I: there is a reservoir of shame/guilt ready at hand. The self-definition as bad, undeserving of voice, asking too much. That safety is too much to ask. See above. Cedar, I am willing to accept that there is something in me, a lens through which I am perceiving that I need to understand and to expunge. A growing sense I have of meanness. Of P/C. Of cliques. Of sorority-type convention, and shunning if one breaks the rules. It is not to blame. It is to be responsible. Blame comes from the past. We seek to be responsible. Yes. I agree. I think so. Think about my Mother when she targeted my toddler son for her rage because I fell chasing him. And look at the sequence of events. The stressful conversation between her and I. His reacting to the tension by running. My falling while chasing him. My mother blaming my son. Holding him responsible. How could a baby ever make sense of being targeted with rage....for something so far from his control or understanding, so little proximate to a behavior for which he was responsible. My mother was angry at me...for choices I had made for years, before my son had been born. She put that on him. In all of those times that that happened to the toddler and girls we were, how did we feel about ourselves and our world? How many countless events resulted in the same self-blame...for things that only could have resulted because we were bad, undeserving children that wanted too much attention, and were too much trouble, or felt so? Yes. Yes. In my case foster care. That is why I throw in the towel so easily when cleaning and organizing because I can never and could not ever do it well enough. I believe Joseph cried for sadness for his brothers, in a way. That they remained trapped in self-limiting ways of thinking. But I think he cried for himself, that he remained without family. That because they could not be different, he was alone. Just as you, Cedar, and I, and Serenity may cry for ourselves. The example with Daphne fits this perfectly. Serenity was not in the main hurt by Daphne. She was concerned for her sister. That her sister was so worked up and upset that she would act out in this way. She sought to soothe her. To take away that which might inflame her. And next, Serenity felt loss of her sister. And she re-examined what had transpired prior to their break, to see if there was another way to understand the sequence of events. So that she could have her sister once again. She could not see it differently. But she tried. Joseph is to be admired (after almost 8000 years, I would guess he is), for his emotional honesty. Like you said, his flexibility. He was naked. Without judgment. Without preconception. He could own reality and himself in it. I do not think Joseph has compassion for the bad acts of his brothers. He has "understanding" of them, in the sense of the Greek definition of forgiveness which I posted above. Joseph is able to distinguish between the act and the person. He condemns the sin and loves the sinner. Yuck. I am not there yet. But the thing is, Cedar, I think we love our sisters. I am enraged at my sister for being such a jerk. For the things she does to me and to others. For her falsity. For her hypocrisy. The thing is, all this rage and contempt I feel is wasted on her. She feels not one bit of this rage. Who is all contorted and embittered trying to accommodate all of this ambivalence, towards somebody who at heart, I love? Me. I do not know how to do what Joseph did, either. But again the event with the removed post is an example. Fear of danger. And the need to protect oneself. Who wants to feel weak? Or unsafe. Or targeted. Or muzzled. Not wanted. Or ridiculed. Or gossiped about. Is it not a survival instinct to perceive danger and to respond? Does that not trump all else? If danger has been the most likely environmental condition...is it not a basic law of survival to perceive its possible arrival? And to respond to it? Proactively. If your internalized world...is that...danger...what is the most congruent response to an event the causation of which is unknown...when there has been recent, unanticipated danger? My thinking about whether to continue posting here...was not a purely psychological phenomena....It was based upon recent events, my psychology, and the fact that I have been using this forum to uncover and examine scary things. To entertain the possibility of changing...by opening myself up to risk. It has to be a rational act to examine and to re-assess whether to continue to do so here...makes sense. But when I do so, I need to take into account factors in me that I want to change...and how I can responsibly change them...weighed against risks. That is true. Cedar, I read a book awhile ago. By a Russian Psychologist of almost 100 years ago. I will look for it. I may have mentioned it before. This man says this, more or less: We do not have the capacity until we are about 30 or later to really be people. Everything to this point is programming, by parents and by society and culture. We are like automatons. Like machines. He goes further and says, there is no way we can really know ourselves and to constitute ourselves as conscious beings unless we have a community of fellows, like we have created among the 3 of us. We cannot see ourselves fully alone. From what you have shared it seems you have been in the process of self-examination since your mid-thirties. You were right on schedule. The way you and I ended up [I]and everybody else [/I]was contingent upon the environment in which we interacted and matured. You can say that we were unlucky. But in ways we were not. Not because anybody was able to give us anything or make it easy. But because we were forced to grow in rocky, marginal soil, with many environmental challenges, and we had to adapt and understand complicated, subtle and confounding things. Most importantly we yearned for better. For more. How boring it could have been. How dull. How conventional we could have been. Trapped in vanilla goodness (actually, I love vanilla). Our hope and energy is for our children. With them you are realizing your dinner. It starts as a picnic. Maybe then a buffet. Soon you will pull out your sterling flatware and Limoges to set the table with candles and a Martha Stewart tablescape. Thank you Cedar. [/QUOTE]
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