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Family of Origin
The win and the loss
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<blockquote data-quote="Copabanana" data-source="post: 676986" data-attributes="member: 18958"><p>Of course I do not hold my FOO as equal to Nazis. And of course I do not take offense, Serenity. This is a discussion, an important one, to find where we stand, each of us, ourselves. It seems we are not alone.</p><p></p><p>The paragraph below I took just now from the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy.</p><p></p><p><em>The main issues discussed by philosophers on the topic of evil have been: Should we use the term ‘evil’ in our moral, political, and legal discourse and thinking, or is evil an out-dated or empty concept which should be abandoned? What is the relationship between evil and other moral concepts such as badness and wrongdoing? What are the necessary and sufficient conditions for evil action? What are the necessary and sufficient conditions for evil character? What is the relationship between evil action and evil character? What types of evil actions and characters can exist? What is the proper analysis of derivative concepts such as evil institution?</em></p><p></p><p>The German people, the Austrian people, the French, Italians, and others were just people like us. No more evil or bad. No less.</p><p></p><p>I posted Sunday, I think it was, something I did not know, that the Danish people and their government protected their Jews. Stood up for them, and tried to and successfully did protect the grand majority. At the heart of it, these were individual decisions, which became collective ones.</p><p></p><p>I think what happened in our FOOs is the same kind of decision. We, each of us, may have to in our lives make decisions that reflect upon the collectivity, the society as did the Danes, the Germans, etc. The only difference between these kinds of decisions and those made by our family members is the scope. Moral decisions are moral decisions.</p><p></p><p>By saying evil can be "banal" is not to minimize it. It is to say that evil can be done in a gray flannel suit or a Hermes scarf. Or inside a house where nobody sees against a child.</p><p></p><p>I cannot presume to know anything about evil. Really. I am not a philosopher. I am just me. But I can think about it.</p><p></p><p>I am coming down on the side of the rest of you. I agree with Insane. I agree with you.</p><p></p><p>But I believe that we need not minimize what was done to us. Even if it was done out of fear, shame, greed--small reasons that we can easily forgive. (By forgive I mean let go of the need for vengeance or judgement.) By seeing it in its bigness, our own suffering, is not to make smaller horrible atrocities such as the holocaust. It is to acknowledge what happened to us, to accept the reality of it. That it was wrong.</p><p></p><p>By doing that, a paradoxical thing occurs. It enables us to do right. Gives us the moral fiber and the courage to do the right thing. To choose right.</p><p></p><p>I believe in right and wrong. I believe we can face the truth of our own lives. I believe wrong was done to us. I believe we can face it. I believe we can forgive. That is, let go of <em>the anger that corrodes us and makes us weak. </em>Which is different from reconciliation.</p><p></p><p>Cedar is the only one of us who writes the particulars of her life here on FOO who has a mother who still lives. I believe Cedar is strong enough to see her mother. I fear that she will suffer as I have and I hope that she does not.</p><p></p><p>Maybe I am wrong. Maybe the things we do in our own private lives are in a different category altogether than what happened in Europe or Argentina or Southeast Asia or everywhere else. But where does it start, Serenity?'</p><p></p><p>All of those people were part of families and societies that somehow influenced or failed to curb their willingness to do wrong or their responsibility for same.</p><p></p><p>There is a reason to hold people responsible and to hold responsible ourselves for our moral decisions. If not in ourselves and in our families? Where else? Where do we do have control and responsibility, at the start of it, where else?</p><p></p><p>COPA</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Copabanana, post: 676986, member: 18958"] Of course I do not hold my FOO as equal to Nazis. And of course I do not take offense, Serenity. This is a discussion, an important one, to find where we stand, each of us, ourselves. It seems we are not alone. The paragraph below I took just now from the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy. [I]The main issues discussed by philosophers on the topic of evil have been: Should we use the term ‘evil’ in our moral, political, and legal discourse and thinking, or is evil an out-dated or empty concept which should be abandoned? What is the relationship between evil and other moral concepts such as badness and wrongdoing? What are the necessary and sufficient conditions for evil action? What are the necessary and sufficient conditions for evil character? What is the relationship between evil action and evil character? What types of evil actions and characters can exist? What is the proper analysis of derivative concepts such as evil institution?[/I] The German people, the Austrian people, the French, Italians, and others were just people like us. No more evil or bad. No less. I posted Sunday, I think it was, something I did not know, that the Danish people and their government protected their Jews. Stood up for them, and tried to and successfully did protect the grand majority. At the heart of it, these were individual decisions, which became collective ones. I think what happened in our FOOs is the same kind of decision. We, each of us, may have to in our lives make decisions that reflect upon the collectivity, the society as did the Danes, the Germans, etc. The only difference between these kinds of decisions and those made by our family members is the scope. Moral decisions are moral decisions. By saying evil can be "banal" is not to minimize it. It is to say that evil can be done in a gray flannel suit or a Hermes scarf. Or inside a house where nobody sees against a child. I cannot presume to know anything about evil. Really. I am not a philosopher. I am just me. But I can think about it. I am coming down on the side of the rest of you. I agree with Insane. I agree with you. But I believe that we need not minimize what was done to us. Even if it was done out of fear, shame, greed--small reasons that we can easily forgive. (By forgive I mean let go of the need for vengeance or judgement.) By seeing it in its bigness, our own suffering, is not to make smaller horrible atrocities such as the holocaust. It is to acknowledge what happened to us, to accept the reality of it. That it was wrong. By doing that, a paradoxical thing occurs. It enables us to do right. Gives us the moral fiber and the courage to do the right thing. To choose right. I believe in right and wrong. I believe we can face the truth of our own lives. I believe wrong was done to us. I believe we can face it. I believe we can forgive. That is, let go of [I]the anger that corrodes us and makes us weak. [/I]Which is different from reconciliation. Cedar is the only one of us who writes the particulars of her life here on FOO who has a mother who still lives. I believe Cedar is strong enough to see her mother. I fear that she will suffer as I have and I hope that she does not. Maybe I am wrong. Maybe the things we do in our own private lives are in a different category altogether than what happened in Europe or Argentina or Southeast Asia or everywhere else. But where does it start, Serenity?' All of those people were part of families and societies that somehow influenced or failed to curb their willingness to do wrong or their responsibility for same. There is a reason to hold people responsible and to hold responsible ourselves for our moral decisions. If not in ourselves and in our families? Where else? Where do we do have control and responsibility, at the start of it, where else? COPA [/QUOTE]
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