Forums
New posts
Search forums
What's new
New posts
New profile posts
Latest activity
Internet Search
Members
Current visitors
New profile posts
Search profile posts
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
New posts
Search forums
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Forums
Parent Support Forums
General Parenting
What is forgiveness?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Marguerite" data-source="post: 71133" data-attributes="member: 1991"><p>Witz, you said, "I'm good with letting go. I let go of many things with this person, otherwise I would spend my life in misery hating him. But I also won't let my guard down with this particular person when I have no choice but to deal with him. </p><p></p><p>I guess my questions is, it's not the same as forgiving, is it?"</p><p></p><p>Actually, I think it is. As others here have said, forgiveness is more about the person forgiving, than the person who has caused harm. It makes no difference if the person who caused harm is sorry or not, or knows about it or not. You can forgive someone in absentia.</p><p></p><p>Forgiveness does not mean you have forgotten, or you trust them again, or there is no need for restitution. We may forgive a debt, which means we no longer hold the person accountable for the money they owe, but that is a highly specific meaning. I do not think it fully applies to those who have been hurt. A more correct description is to say a debt has been remitted, which means it is now considered as being paid in full. A person serving time in jail can have their sentence remitted - it doesn't mean they were never guilty, it just means the law now considers that sentence has been served. Forgiveness is an entirely separate thing.</p><p></p><p>If you can forgive, it is easier on you. It makes it easier to move on and not let the pain keep you holding on to your resentment and anger. But you can't force forgiveness - it has to be something you're ready for.</p><p></p><p>I have a friend who is very resentful of her family, especially her mother. Whenever she talks to me, this friend will go on and on talking about the same old things, never moving on from her pain from the past. I used to try and help her see that she needs to move on to develop her own life, free from the chains of the past. but she just doesn't seem to be able to (or maybe to want to?). It's like she has to hold on to her resentment and keep it burning white hot in order to feel alive and justified. She's a tub-thumping fundamentalist who would be appalled if I accused her of holding onto resentment; she would insist she has forgiven her mother, but she has not. No way. While ever she is bearing these resentments, letting them influence her communication with hr family, always bringing up her past hurts and her distress over it, she has not forgiven.</p><p>What I have tried to urge her to do is let it go and move on, leave the past in the past although to always guard against being hurt in the future. Forgiving doesn't mean letting your guard down.</p><p>Will she ever be ready to forgive? I really don't know. I think a big part of her problems is that she believes that to forgive, she has to also say that what they did to her was OK, and it can never be OK.</p><p></p><p>Forgiveness can't be forced on you. You can't force it on yourself. You have to be ready to let go and move on. Forgiveness also doesn't mean that any judgement outcomes can then be abandoned - a woman whose husband has beaten her up in a drug-induced rage may forgive him, especially if he is now contrite, has voluntarily entered rehab and is a changed person. But she can't get him out of jail until he is deemed to have served his time. She may also choose to move on with her life, leaving him and the past to develop herself in a different direction. That is her prerogative. It doesn't mean she hasn't forgiven him.</p><p></p><p>My friend's first husband tried to kill her repeatedly, while suffering from a number of psychotic episodes. She stuck with him for years while he went in and out of hospital, stable on medications then refusing to take them. She finally divorced him and remarried. </p><p>Her second husband molested her children. At first, when it came out, she tried to save her marriage even if it meant losing her children, then she realised how she wasn't thinking clearly (due to his brainwashing).</p><p>She is now happily married, for the third time. her first husband is a close friend and had been forgiven years earlier. But she didn't remarry him - they had both moved on. First husband and his new wife were honoured guests at her third wedding. Second husband - never mentioned, I don't think she has forgiven him. Maybe in time, even though he's still molesting others, she's sure. As long as she can forgive what he did to her - she can't forgive on behalf of her daughter.</p><p></p><p>Steve Irwin's family forgave the stingray. His injury was not an attack, it was an accident borne of the stingray's fear and its natural reaction. Does that mean that people can swim with stingrays with no caution? Of course not.</p><p></p><p>In Perth (Australia) on Monday, a 2 week old baby was mauled to death by the family dog. There has been a lot of discussion over here since then, of the need to ensure your dog isn't treated as the leader of the pack in the house all its life and then pushed aside in family affections when a new baby comes home - there are ways to prevent this sort of problem, the advice is now thoroughly out in the community and families with impending births are now putting these precautions in place. Whether the family have forgiven the dog - I don't know, but the dog still had to be destroyed. It has killed a human life and can never be rehabilitated, seems to be the belief that authorities are working on. With the benefit of hindsight there is understanding of why this happened; it can never make it OK, though.</p><p></p><p>Forgiveness doesn't need to be communicated to the person being forgiven. Sometimes telling someone you forgive them, even if they're not sorry at all, can dump on them an effective guilt load. You would need to be sure you're not telling them of your forgiveness, just to make them feel bad and hopefully trigger an apology.</p><p></p><p>Sometimes in the middle of a tantrum, difficult child 3 has said, "I hate you!"</p><p>I have responded with, "That's a pity, because I happen to love you. I don't love the tantrum, but I do love you."</p><p>I do not need him to apologise or even to calm down, for me to forgive him. And sometimes when he DOES calm down, he comes to me and apologises. And I had already forgiven him.</p><p></p><p>In Australia's history a lot of harm was done, irreparably, by the Europeans, to the Aboriginal people. Entire tribes were wiped out. People were poisoned, shot, killed by disease and famine. They were rounded up en masse and moved onto missions where they were denied access to their culture and language. It was all done in the name of "It's good for them." Children were routinely removed from their mothers, if the children had any "white blood" in them. Even if the mother did too. This has been happening as recently as the 1950s and 1960s. Some claim it is still happening, although not in any routine, organised way as it used to.</p><p>The Aboriginal people of Australia want an apology. "Sorry" books were distributed around the country and ordinary citizens have signed them as they choose to. We say sorry not because we were personally culpable, nor even can we find evidence of any of our direct ancestors being personally responsible; but we sign the book to show we are appalled at what happened and we express regret.</p><p>Our Prime Minister has consistently refused to say sorry. He says it's because he was never personally responsible - but we all know that. Other politicians are saying, "I'm sorry this happened to you," which is all the Aboriginal nations want. Our government is perhaps afraid that this would open up a claim for financial restitution, but it's way beyond t he possibility of that. This is simply about helping people move on and begin to be able to forgive.</p><p>You may have seen at the Closing Ceremony of the Sydney 2000 Olympics, a band called Midnight Oil performing. They each wore black t-shirts with the word "Sorry" in the shirt. Their lead singer is now in parliament.</p><p></p><p>You can have contrition without guilt, although it's unusual. You can forgive without the other person knowing or being contrite. Forgiveness is about the person wronged, and how they are dealing with what was done to them. They may never trust that person again, but they have chosen to move on.</p><p></p><p>God has already forgiven us. He has already remitted any sentences. But if we choose to keep ourselves in prison, it's OUR responsibility. We are the ones then clinging to our past and bearing grudges, not God.</p><p></p><p>Marg</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Marguerite, post: 71133, member: 1991"] Witz, you said, "I'm good with letting go. I let go of many things with this person, otherwise I would spend my life in misery hating him. But I also won't let my guard down with this particular person when I have no choice but to deal with him. I guess my questions is, it's not the same as forgiving, is it?" Actually, I think it is. As others here have said, forgiveness is more about the person forgiving, than the person who has caused harm. It makes no difference if the person who caused harm is sorry or not, or knows about it or not. You can forgive someone in absentia. Forgiveness does not mean you have forgotten, or you trust them again, or there is no need for restitution. We may forgive a debt, which means we no longer hold the person accountable for the money they owe, but that is a highly specific meaning. I do not think it fully applies to those who have been hurt. A more correct description is to say a debt has been remitted, which means it is now considered as being paid in full. A person serving time in jail can have their sentence remitted - it doesn't mean they were never guilty, it just means the law now considers that sentence has been served. Forgiveness is an entirely separate thing. If you can forgive, it is easier on you. It makes it easier to move on and not let the pain keep you holding on to your resentment and anger. But you can't force forgiveness - it has to be something you're ready for. I have a friend who is very resentful of her family, especially her mother. Whenever she talks to me, this friend will go on and on talking about the same old things, never moving on from her pain from the past. I used to try and help her see that she needs to move on to develop her own life, free from the chains of the past. but she just doesn't seem to be able to (or maybe to want to?). It's like she has to hold on to her resentment and keep it burning white hot in order to feel alive and justified. She's a tub-thumping fundamentalist who would be appalled if I accused her of holding onto resentment; she would insist she has forgiven her mother, but she has not. No way. While ever she is bearing these resentments, letting them influence her communication with hr family, always bringing up her past hurts and her distress over it, she has not forgiven. What I have tried to urge her to do is let it go and move on, leave the past in the past although to always guard against being hurt in the future. Forgiving doesn't mean letting your guard down. Will she ever be ready to forgive? I really don't know. I think a big part of her problems is that she believes that to forgive, she has to also say that what they did to her was OK, and it can never be OK. Forgiveness can't be forced on you. You can't force it on yourself. You have to be ready to let go and move on. Forgiveness also doesn't mean that any judgement outcomes can then be abandoned - a woman whose husband has beaten her up in a drug-induced rage may forgive him, especially if he is now contrite, has voluntarily entered rehab and is a changed person. But she can't get him out of jail until he is deemed to have served his time. She may also choose to move on with her life, leaving him and the past to develop herself in a different direction. That is her prerogative. It doesn't mean she hasn't forgiven him. My friend's first husband tried to kill her repeatedly, while suffering from a number of psychotic episodes. She stuck with him for years while he went in and out of hospital, stable on medications then refusing to take them. She finally divorced him and remarried. Her second husband molested her children. At first, when it came out, she tried to save her marriage even if it meant losing her children, then she realised how she wasn't thinking clearly (due to his brainwashing). She is now happily married, for the third time. her first husband is a close friend and had been forgiven years earlier. But she didn't remarry him - they had both moved on. First husband and his new wife were honoured guests at her third wedding. Second husband - never mentioned, I don't think she has forgiven him. Maybe in time, even though he's still molesting others, she's sure. As long as she can forgive what he did to her - she can't forgive on behalf of her daughter. Steve Irwin's family forgave the stingray. His injury was not an attack, it was an accident borne of the stingray's fear and its natural reaction. Does that mean that people can swim with stingrays with no caution? Of course not. In Perth (Australia) on Monday, a 2 week old baby was mauled to death by the family dog. There has been a lot of discussion over here since then, of the need to ensure your dog isn't treated as the leader of the pack in the house all its life and then pushed aside in family affections when a new baby comes home - there are ways to prevent this sort of problem, the advice is now thoroughly out in the community and families with impending births are now putting these precautions in place. Whether the family have forgiven the dog - I don't know, but the dog still had to be destroyed. It has killed a human life and can never be rehabilitated, seems to be the belief that authorities are working on. With the benefit of hindsight there is understanding of why this happened; it can never make it OK, though. Forgiveness doesn't need to be communicated to the person being forgiven. Sometimes telling someone you forgive them, even if they're not sorry at all, can dump on them an effective guilt load. You would need to be sure you're not telling them of your forgiveness, just to make them feel bad and hopefully trigger an apology. Sometimes in the middle of a tantrum, difficult child 3 has said, "I hate you!" I have responded with, "That's a pity, because I happen to love you. I don't love the tantrum, but I do love you." I do not need him to apologise or even to calm down, for me to forgive him. And sometimes when he DOES calm down, he comes to me and apologises. And I had already forgiven him. In Australia's history a lot of harm was done, irreparably, by the Europeans, to the Aboriginal people. Entire tribes were wiped out. People were poisoned, shot, killed by disease and famine. They were rounded up en masse and moved onto missions where they were denied access to their culture and language. It was all done in the name of "It's good for them." Children were routinely removed from their mothers, if the children had any "white blood" in them. Even if the mother did too. This has been happening as recently as the 1950s and 1960s. Some claim it is still happening, although not in any routine, organised way as it used to. The Aboriginal people of Australia want an apology. "Sorry" books were distributed around the country and ordinary citizens have signed them as they choose to. We say sorry not because we were personally culpable, nor even can we find evidence of any of our direct ancestors being personally responsible; but we sign the book to show we are appalled at what happened and we express regret. Our Prime Minister has consistently refused to say sorry. He says it's because he was never personally responsible - but we all know that. Other politicians are saying, "I'm sorry this happened to you," which is all the Aboriginal nations want. Our government is perhaps afraid that this would open up a claim for financial restitution, but it's way beyond t he possibility of that. This is simply about helping people move on and begin to be able to forgive. You may have seen at the Closing Ceremony of the Sydney 2000 Olympics, a band called Midnight Oil performing. They each wore black t-shirts with the word "Sorry" in the shirt. Their lead singer is now in parliament. You can have contrition without guilt, although it's unusual. You can forgive without the other person knowing or being contrite. Forgiveness is about the person wronged, and how they are dealing with what was done to them. They may never trust that person again, but they have chosen to move on. God has already forgiven us. He has already remitted any sentences. But if we choose to keep ourselves in prison, it's OUR responsibility. We are the ones then clinging to our past and bearing grudges, not God. Marg [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Forums
Parent Support Forums
General Parenting
What is forgiveness?
Top