Asperger's and lying

[AnnieO]

What everyone else has said, goes very well. Honestly? I've always considered lying right up there on the worst behavior list. Because lying violates trust. Little white lies? Like telling the child you don't have any cash when they ask, when in fact you do, but they've been mooching all week and you're tired of it.

I got to the point where I just assumed Onyxx was lying. All the time. husband believed her, I didn't, which caused some major stress. Jett, on the other hand, can't lie to save his life. Mostly because the things he picks to lie about are easy. Such as wearing shorts in 20-degree weather. "Did you wear those home from school?" "No." "Are you lying to me?" "Yes." (I have a pretty good bovine manure radar.)

Anyone that tells you ANY child cannot lie is, quite simply, full of beans. (I don't lie much - I omit and redirect - because it's simply too hard to remember!)

 

[TerryJ2]

Great responses and insights. Thank you! I've got a lot to think about ... and to do.

 

[DDD]

It's been our experience that "lying" often is an effort to gain attention and admiration. Sounds weird, doesn't it? Our AS young adult will expound on a subject to impress others with his intelligence. It quickly becomes apparent that the whole story is fantasy. Sometimes when he did not understand something he would make up a fabrication to make it sounds as though he did grasp it. It can be a complex issue with AS kids. DDD

 

[TerryJ2]

Hmm. I don't think we've encountered that yet. Mostly it's denying he has done something wrong, taken something that doesn't belong to him, or not done something he should have done. In one sense, it's typical kid stuff, but exaggerated by a million.

 

[HaoZi]

I've known people that were such pathological liars they didn't even realize they were lying. They totally lived in another universe and believed everything that came out of their own mouths (though said "information" was subject to change on a frequent basis in some cases). One of these was my first EX's grandmother, and the other is a 3rd? 4th? cousin of mine by blood, and no one is quite certain what's wrong with him (above and beyond the lying), just that he's... broken. He's been that way since he was little from what I've been told from everyone else in the family, including his brother.

 

[DammitJanet]

DDD...that is exactly the way it works with Billy. He doesnt out and out lie. He is actually quite honest and completely trustworthy with things like retail management. I mean he has a set of keys to the store. However, he does tend to "exaggerate" things at times. One time he told my Dad that Cory had wrecked my car by running it into a ditch and flipping it three times and smashing all the windows out. Didnt happen. Small kernel of truth in there. Cory had taken my car, foot slipped off the brake and he rolled into the ditch and cracked the front bumper. It never rolled. Not once. No busted out windows. No one flew out of the car.

I get exaggerated stories all the time and mostly take everything with a grain of salt unless I hear it from an independent source...lol.

 

[TerryJ2]

Last night at dinner, easy child confronted difficult child about eating her food, using her laptop, and lying about it. She asked him why he lied and he said, "Because I was scared."

She explained that it was only going to make it worse, but I'm not sure he was convinced.

She may make a good therapist someday. No blow up, just calm discussion.

 

[Pony1798]

I have a son with Asperger's (he's now 21 y/o). He learned how to lie and used to lie quite frequently. At its worst, he was in his teens and driving a car. He would leave his father's (my ex's) house, in the mornings, pretending to go to school, but would use the house key I gave him to my house, to hang at my place all day while I was at work. He got in trouble at school and with the county for excessive absenteeism and I demanded my key back, which I got. I knew he'd been hanging at my place mostly because he would fail to lock push-knob lock in the front door when he left. One morning I had returned back home because I forgot something. Guess who I spotted pulling up to the my driveway after he was supposed to begin his school day. He kept on driving past, making a show that he was talking into his cell phone. The story of that day: "Mom, I was on my way to pick up a friend to take him to school with me". WRONG/BUSTED - as my house was outside of the boundary for kids to live, to go to my son's school. It seems my son never learned that most lies do in fact snowball. Not only that, they cost, cost, cost. I know that all kids lie (not just those with Asp's). But I wonder if it tends to be worse with Aspergers, as it seems their mind just cannot completely process certain aspects such as consequences for behaviors (like lying). My son and I rarely talk these days. So I don't know if the problem with lying still continues to this day (but I would bet it does). Just like my other post on a different thread - tough parenting of this kid cost me a relationship (or at least a normal one) with him.

 

[TerryJ2]

Thank you, Pony. I am so sorry about your relationship (or lack thereof).

But I wonder if it tends to be worse with Aspergers, as it seems their mind just cannot completely process certain aspects such as consequences for behaviors (like lying).

I wonder this, too, because of the lack of ability to extrapolate consequences.

 

[SearchingForRainbows]

difficult child 2 lies frequently and has been lying for years. Most of his lies are the "I didn't do it" type. Every once in a while he'll tell a more elaborate lie, but because he is so socially "clueless," he is easily caught.

difficult child 1 used to lie all the time when he was younger. When he was in the fifth grade, he had to bring the newspaper up from the end of the driveway before walking to the bus stop at the end of the street. difficult child 1 didn't want to walk back up the driveway (about 200 feet long) so he told us for an entire week that the paper wasn't there. One night I mentioned at dinner that I was going to have to call the newspaper company. easy child/difficult child 3 (easy child back then) immediately told us that difficult child 1 was throwing the papers into the woods instead of bringing them to us. He still denied it even after we went outside and found the evidence!

Both difficult child 1 and difficult child 2 live "in the moment." If lying helps them do or not do whatever it is that they want or don't want to do, then they will lie. SFR

 

[Marguerite]

I wonder this, too, because of the lack of ability to extrapolate consequences.

It is a common problem, but not 100%. difficult child 1 could not mentally multi-task. That is a real problem in a lot of areas, but with lying it complicated his life because to lie successfully, you ned to be able to mentally plan. Part of that planning is being able to 'head off' the possible consequences.

The reasons for lying, especially in Aspies, are fear and anxiety. The fear of IMMEDIATE consequences "the teacher will be angry if I tell her I forgot to do my homework - I'd better tell her the dog ate it" is greater than the fear of lying. Over time, hopefully, they learn that lying doesn't work for them because they always get caught. But you have to make the consequences for lying hit them every time, and be greater than the consequences of telling the truth to begin with. It takes time because the fear in the immediate moment can be so intense, but if you can reduce this fear "I won't punish you if you tell me the truth" and at the same time try to actively work constructively to resolve the main problem "I realise you forgot to do your homework because you are not good at personal organisation. Let's see what we can put in place to help you, or perhaps let's not give you homework for a while, you don't really need it anyway" and over time, the lying should decrease.

You need to look at this always as a see-saw (or teeter-totter, whatever you call them). Truth is in one seat, lies in the other. Anxiety is standing on the top in the middle, applying pressure this way or that. Look for the anxiety pressure and see which direction it is driving the child. Examine the anxiety, work to resolve it, and any lies will rapidly be exposed. Punish the lying, but not the reason for anxiety.

Marg

 

[lisa3girls]

I have a son with Asperger's (he's now 21 y/o). He learned how to lie and used to lie quite frequently. At its worst, he was in his teens and driving a car. He would leave his father's (my ex's) house, in the mornings, pretending to go to school, but would use the house key I gave him to my house, to hang at my place all day while I was at work. He got in trouble at school and with the county for excessive absenteeism and I demanded my key back, which I got. I knew he'd been hanging at my place mostly because he would fail to lock push-knob lock in the front door when he left. One morning I had returned back home because I forgot something. Guess who I spotted pulling up to the my driveway after he was supposed to begin his school day. He kept on driving past, making a show that he was talking into his cell phone. The story of that day: "Mom, I was on my way to pick up a friend to take him to school with me". WRONG/BUSTED - as my house was outside of the boundary for kids to live, to go to my son's school. It seems my son never learned that most lies do in fact snowball. Not only that, they cost, cost, cost. I know that all kids lie (not just those with Asp's). But I wonder if it tends to be worse with Aspergers, as it seems their mind just cannot completely process certain aspects such as consequences for behaviors (like lying). My son and I rarely talk these days. So I don't know if the problem with lying still continues to this day (but I would bet it does). Just like my other post on a different thread - tough parenting of this kid cost me a relationship (or at least a normal one) with him.

My NLD daughter (16) also lies and she is really awful at it-- I wonder why she keeps trying it myself

 

[Marguerite]

Ah, you found this. Good. (no, I'm not stalking you - just checking on threads I've posted on already).

As I said in my previous post in this thread - try to find where the anxiety is, try to find which has the stronger force - truth, or lie. And then why. From there it is easier to apply your own pressure.

And go get that book out of the library and read it. It will save you a lot of time and angst. You can use it on your younger kids too. It really will make your life easier.

Marg

 

[susiestar]

Terry, as far as my dad you are right!! He once told my mom some story about a wheelbarrow being invented by the Earl of Barrow and said how it happened and why and why the name stuck. It was ALL made up off the top of his head, totally spur of the moment. My mother told a LOT of people in the next few days, having NO idea that he made it up. When she found out it was because his shock (total shock) that she told anyone. She could not remember who she told and I have actually heard that same story from several other sources (the invention of the wheelbarrow and the Earl of Barrow) who all believe it. It has been over 20 years and I heard it again this Christmas - and NOT as a joke. Now, of course, there is NO way to refute it with-o sounding like an idiot who is making things up, lol. Now my mother will listen to my dad and then ask if it is a "wheelbarrow" before she believes it! Dad NEVER meant for it to be retold - it was just a story he spun at the spur of the moment as a joke. He did NOT intend for anyone to believe it, but it is a story that apparently was easy to believe, at least in our area. (I have even heard one of the elem teachers at thank you's school tell it to students - how do I explain it in THAT situation?)

He has been successful with Wiz because they are equally matched in many Aspie ways, including determination and bull-headedness.

To make it painful and miserable for difficult child - if he steals from someone and fesses up right away then he needs to pay for the item and not be allowed to keep it. If it cannot be used/resold with no damage then he needs to also pay damages equal to the amount of the item. If he steals and damages it or uses it up substantially, and then lies - have him pay 3 times the cost of the item and NOT keep it. NOT keeping it is the key. He also cannot use money that was given to him - it MUST be paid with money he EARNED with his own WORK. period. Even if it takes time and you have to pay and have him work it off. he gets NO new things/fun things/ movie rentals/etc... until it is paid off. If he gets allowance he should NOT be allowed to use it ALL to pay off a debt. Some needs to be kept so that he can cover some impulse purchases/things he wants. YOU don't buy him books/toys/etc... but being totally deprived sets up a mindset that will make him feel he has to steal more. So let him keep some money he earns/gets as allowance/etc... for a candy bar or soda when you are out, for a small purchase. It will help curb future stealing and lying.

This has to be applied to at home and not just in public/out of the family. Otherwise it own't work. It is part of making lying too miserable and it is what my dad finally found worked for Wiz.

 

[HaoZi]

I had my share of "I didn't do it"s as a kid. And I recall a lot of the time, I didn't know why I did whatever it was. Mostly it seemed like a good idea at the time I think. Sometimes it was "I wonder what would happen if..." Lying about it was typical stuff, I realized I messed up and didn't want to get in trouble for it (and duh... created more trouble for myself). I'll say this though, and it remains true to this day: I fear my Dad's disappointment more than I fear his anger. Hearing good things he said about me from other people, like his co-workers, meant a lot to me, because sometimes it was things I didn't hear from him and sometimes it meant more that he had told others.

 

[Marguerite]

I'm starting to think that this thread deserves to be archived. We've covered the topic in amazing depth and I think we've all learned something.

Thanks, Terry.

Marg

 

[TerryJ2]

One night I mentioned at dinner that I was going to have to call the newspaper company. easy child/difficult child 3 (easy child back then) immediately told us that difficult child 1 was throwing the papers into the woods instead of bringing them to us. He still denied it even after we went outside and found the evidence!

That sounds just like something my difficult child would do.

 

[TerryJ2]

YOU don't buy him books/toys/etc... but being totally deprived sets up a mindset that will make him feel he has to steal more. So let him keep some money he earns/gets as allowance/etc... for a candy bar or soda when you are out, for a small purchase. It will help curb future stealing and lying.

Good distinction, SusieStar.

 

[trinityroyal]

My difficult child lies all the time, to the point where I have told him that I don't believe anything he says without independent verification from a source he can't influence, very much like Susiestar's father did with Wiz. difficult child is very bad at lying, but he does it anyway. His reasons seem to boil down to the following:

1. Self aggrandizement. He doesn't think his real knowledge or accomplishment is enough, so he makes up something he thinks will impress people. Sadly, because of his skewed social understanding, the things he makes up often make him look bad and make others think ill of him.
2. Grief avoidance. If he thinks he will get in trouble for something, he will lie about it. He can't see past the trouble he thinks he's in to recognize the trouble he will get into from lying. This applies to things that he wouldn't get into trouble for in the first place, as well as rule breaking. Again, related to his skewed understanding.
3. He thinks the only way he'll get permission is to lie. Instead of asking for what he wants directly, he thinks that he has to make up a reason why he needs something. "It's an emergency" is a common statement when he's doing this.

Now I, I can lie. And very well too. But I can only do it in the right context, and if the payoff is worth it. So...I can play Balderdash (that game where you make up plausible but false definitions for words), very well, because I like playing with language and the payoff is worth it. But telling a lie to get out of trouble, or for self-aggrandizement, or for the other reasons that difficult child does it...I'm just as bad at it as he is, so I just don't bother. Now, I don't have the impulse control problem that difficult child has, in fact, I have the opposite. Sometimes I get stuck back in my head somewhere thinking about things, playing situations out in my head, to the point where I lose the thread of what's going on around me.

Terry, I wonder if your difficult child's impulse control issues, grandiosity and the 3 reasons I stated above for my difficult child's lies are working in your difficult child too. There's no easy answer for this, and the loss of trust is heartbreaking. Sadly, I don't believe that I'll ever be able to trust my difficult child.

 

[TerryJ2]

I know. I wonder the same thing.