Attention Seeking.....Cutting

[OTE]

I'd just be sure that she knows where a tube of antibiotic cream is and to put on it. I put it on any cut, it's supposed to also reduce the scar in case it gets one.

About the SSI, it's not a matter of scores. It's a matter of her ability to function compared to her peers. Can she hold down a job? Was she in mainstream or Special Education classes? For what kind of Special Education, behavioral or Learning Disability (LD)? As you said, after 18 she is legally responsible for all the paperwork and applications. So she would have to say in any interviews that she wants whatever it is. But SSI could make her life easier if she's not going to be able to live alone. Frankly, inability to live alone is a sign that she qualifies for SSI. Any 21 yr old should be capable of living alone without supports. But I have to disagree, again, I don't know the whole situation. But living in a therapeutic foster home for 2 yrs should be evidence enough that she can't function as a easy child, throw in Special Education classes or Special Education school, some criminal charges, a lower IQ, if she can't keep a job it shouldn't be that hard! There's a lot of threads about SSI on the insurance forum.

Sounds like she got the green card anyway. I know the difference between custody and guardianship. Technically, at 18 you have neither. State can only have legal custody (against her will) via a judge....if she either has a criminal charge resulting in state custody or is determined to be incompetent. And if it's the latter, the judge's opinion is usually good enough for SSI. Unless there's something in Utah I'm not aware of. And I only know this because I'm one of those with a kid coming up on 18 who is making, and will make, very poor choices. But there's nothing that I can legally do about it. I have to just sit by and watch him self-destruct once he's 18. The usually position of families of the mentally ill.

 

[BusynMember]

Poor thing. Sounds like she's a mess. Now I'm wondering, if she is brain impaired, if she has Aspergers along with a mood disorder. I have a little daughter with Central Auditory Processing Disorder (CAPD) and she has no mental health issues and she's not thinking impaired. She needs the resource room in school, but I don't think Central Auditory Processing Disorder (CAPD) would cause her not to be able to think well. After all this time, it's sad that nobody has a clear picture, but it can take years. Is she seeing private Psychiatrists or are they county mental health workers? Unfortunately, although not all private psychiatrists are good, the county mental health workers/psychiatrists tend to be the bottom of the barrell. Not all Residential Treatment Center (RTC)'s are good at diagnosing either. We've dealt with them with foster kids--they seemed to be mostly about behavioral therapy, even when a child obviously needed more than that. I hope she decides to comply with treatment and can find somebody who "gets" her. If she cycles, that's a mood disorder, but it can be co-morbid with neurological issues too.

 

[OTE]

MWM..also, BiPolar (BP) and Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) tend to run in the same genetic lines and are co-morbid in a fair % of the Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD).

I'm not up on Central Auditory Processing Disorder (CAPD) but isn't the issue that the message doesn't get to the brain correctly and/or quickly enough. So wouldn't there be a perceived cognitive issue because of that? I hear you that it may not be a real cognitive issue but if the Central Auditory Processing Disorder (CAPD) were bad enough it would seem to me that the child would test low on most tests that involve oral input. No?

 

[flutterbee]

When I read your original post, Borderline (BPD) was the thing that really came to mind. It is important to realize that Borderline (BPD) is rarely a stand alone diagnosis and is often comorbid with bipolar, depression and anxiety as well as eating disorders and other personality disorders.

Cutting is usually not seen as attention seeking as it is usually hidden very well by those who engage in self injurous behavior. However, your daughter has managed to hide it from you for a year and a half. Another thought: when one has a mental illness it isn't visible like a broken arm or cancer. You have all these things going on inside you and noone can see it. There usually isn't an adequate way to articulate it. The cutting and the not eating may be a way of making an invisible problem visible.

Just my two cents.

 

[dreamer]

"difficult child wishes everyone could read a manual written she has written about herself so we all could comply to what she wants. difficult child has always been a demanding child"



If you look at this from a different angle than her being "needy"- this is really not so bad or unusual, don't we ALL want people to understand us? I think we think with understanding comes the other warm fuzzy happy feelings we all need to continue to go on.

Someone above said something about cutting to be able to reassure ones self they CAN feel......(I think thats what someone said?) ANd I just wanted to say- yes......that is also another reason to cut. SOmetimes I would detach or disassociate or disengage myself from feeling when things would get to be more than I could handle, and then....it would kind of be like I could not get the emotions back again after I had "turned them off" and cutting seemed to bring a lil pain and help me reconnect with feeling emotion again. It also seemed to work similarly when I felt others had shut me out....or ignored me? I would start to get this niggling fear that I was ......invisible? then I would get this irrational feeling of ??? not being real or something. Cutting helped me reassure myself I really was real. (and not a figment of my own imagination or something)

"I don't know what my daughter has suffered to trigger dealing with her pain like this"
For your dtr, it is possible just the battle of being alive and coping with her disabilities is the trigger. It is how she percieves the world around her. That could be all the trauma it takes. As for figuring out that cutting makes you "feel better" I amnot sure how we ever come to think of it, maybe cuz of when we do get hurt by accident, it sparks some little thing inside us? Who ever thought of slapping the face of a hysterical person to calm them down and bring them back to reason? Maybe it is a similar thing?

"I don't know how to discuss this problem with difficult child. When husband asked her about it last night when he seen the cuts she grinned at him (she always grins when she is busted). How do you talk to a difficult child who has impaired brain functioning & judgment plus severe Central Auditory Processing Disorder (CAPD)"
The grin when approached with a topic that is uncomfortable is not that unusual. It could be a nervous reaction, incongruent to how she is feeling inside. Godness how I used to frustrate my therapist when she would try to talk with me and I would start to giggle-----becuz it was giggle or sob and I did not WANT to sob cuz I was SO afraid I might never stop once I started.

 

[Masta]

OTE: difficult child got her green card when we entered the country. I applied for all of my kids, when we immigrated back in 1998. They have to renew them every 10yrs once they hit 14yrs old. It’s a matter of paying a fee no tests required if you are renewing. We waived rights to financial assistance when we moved to the states.

As for SSI: oh my I can’t even imagine what she will have to go through to get on SSI. I don’t think I have the stamina to go through that paperwork with her.
difficult child has had 3 jobs since she has been in care: one job lasted 3 weeks before she ran away. The 2nd job was last year telemarketing for several months. This new job she started last week at McDonalds. She left the telemarketing because the jobsite moved too far for her to walk..her excuse… (really she didn’t want to go to work)

You are right OTE technically I don’t have any say over her, I can offer my input at the CFTM . You are right when it comes to the courts keeping her in care with the dcfs recommending it.

When difficult child had her first neuro pysch done while in the R.T.C they thought she looked autistic or P.D.D etc. She wouldn’t look at them in the eyes etc. They ruled that out after 8hrs of testing.

Central Auditory Processing Disorder (CAPD) is central auditory processing disorder. They hear ok but process information incorrectly; background noise can be an issue, short term memory loss also. People with C.A.P.D need simple tasks broken up for them. I make sure to check the have understood what I have said by making them repeat it back to me before they go and do the task.

difficult child does have an I.E.P for .CA.P.D. She is in a self contained classroom in high school. She has been in that classroom for 2yrs. This year they have allowed her to do a few classes mainstream slowly. She started sluffing so her self contained classroom lady offered difficult child to teacher assistant for her and to allow difficult child to go back into her classroom when she isn’t feeling good. difficult child has said she sluffed because she cant handle things/ she is sad and cries. difficult child has been in resource classes before. The self contain classroom mainly holds kids with mental health issues and the classes taught for 10th-12th grade are way below grade level.

difficult child has seen many doctors. The Residential Treatment Center (RTC) doctor first diagnosed her with a mood disorder. This was a on my insurance. I have taken her to a child pysch who suggested she needed to be in foster care/ group home or Residential Treatment Center (RTC) long term.

In the last 2yrs difficult child has seen doctors, therapists provided by the state. difficult child old therapist left to have a baby so difficult child wanted to pick her own therapist. This guy knows jack about my difficult child and even suggested we not do MMPI on her, he said why are week looking for labels cant we just treat her.

I think she cycles.. Everyone else doesn’t think so except the school pysch. I will try and bring it up at the next meeting. In my difficult child’s situation do you think she needs to see a pysch and well as a therapist coz right now she is only seeing a therapist? She only sees a pysch for testing or for her medications (medications .. Zoloft were suggested after she started sluffing a few months ago)

 

[Sara PA]

Sluffing? Cutting classes?

 

[OTE]

Sara FYI Masta is Australian so it could be an Australian term.

in my humble opinion ... she should see the best therapist you can find for her, whatever that person's education or credentials. In terms of medications, I'd definitely have a psychiatrist do that, and maybe a psychiatrist who treats adults, not kids.

What I'm suggesting is group therapy in addition to the individual. It's often difficult to get into a DBT skills therapy group for a variety of reasons. Her therapist should recommend her for it and help her find one that will take her. It's really std treatment for Borderline (BPD) as far as I know. I was in it because I'm a depressive and there were several other diagnosis in the group I was in. She wouldn't get into the one I was in because of the cognitive issues, but there are all kinds of DBT skills groups. I, and a heck of a lot of others, find it helpful. But she MUST have individual every week to stay in the group. Std stuff for adults, not kids to my knowledge. That's why she hasn't done it before.

If the state is going to support her till she's 21 then I'd hold off the SSI application until age 20. By then she'll have an even longer list of jobs. But do keep track of them, including dates, reasons she left, etc. Thing is, at 21 state will say bye and she'll be on the streets. Sure, they should do transition stuff with her before then, it's their job. But bottom line is that when the state walks out you're it. If you have the SSI in place (which comes with Medicaid), you should be able to find a group home, roommate supported living apt, or some other program for adults like her. Frankly, you might want to look around now and put her name on waiting lists. The good places usually have waiting lists. Having her move from state place to a supported living setting will keep her from your doorstep and everything you, your husband and younger ones went through 2 years ago. She can still work on SSI, just can't earn a lot. If she moves jobs a lot that won't be a problem.

I hear you on the waiver of public aid. I know that was there a couple of years ago. But you should again check with a immigration lawyer re SSI. I don't see legally how SSI could refuse her on the basis of something YOU and husband agreed to. SHE has to make her own immigration/ citizenship choices at 18 as you point out. SHE didn't agree to forego public benefits. With a green card she qualifies. Just FYI as I assume you're not familiar with SSI... it's not the monthly cash that she needs so much as the Medicaid (no job, no medication insur) and the housing. Many of the supported living places take most of the SSI cash as their payment for housing and Medicaid for the "supported" help.

http://ssa-custhelp.ssa.gov/cgi-bin/ssa....amp;p_topview=1

 

[Masta]

Yes cutting classes in 12th grade.

She also decided she shouldn’t have to hand in her art work because art shouldn’t be graded. So she failed that class this year. She has failed guitar class as well but will still graduate because she did extra credit while at the Residential Treatment Center (RTC)..

She has made comments in therapy like: she doesn’t understand why we need to wear clothes.. its a waste of time.. Same as why do we need to eat its a waste of money.

Why should we celebrate Christmas.. Its just jesus's birthday. Why can we celebrate our birthdays like that with getting presents and having a holiday and everyone around the world celebrate the day.

Now is this normal thinking of an 18yr old?

Every time I mention these weird behaviors and ideas of hers dcfs brushes it off with... difficult child is unique.

 

[tiredmommy]

She definitely seems to push against societal norms.

 

[Sara PA]

It's not normal 18 year old thinking (though those trying to be outrageous might say things like that) but I wonder why those things -- including cutting class -- would lead to the prescribing of Zoloft. Those behaviors seem more on the manic side than depressive -- grandiose thinking being the biggest.

 

[OTE]

in my humble opinion, having those ideas, and making those stmts (which again generate attention) are harmless unless she decides to act on them. So I'd forget it as long as she doesn't decide to try any of those things.

My difficult child is also failing HS because of lack of attendance. I think the refusing to hand in an assignment is one of those pushing the boundaries kinds of things. Also, I'm not so sure she's wrong. After all, there are HSs and Universities that don't give any grades at all... for academics. But to judge art is highly personal, the eye of the beholder, so I can see her point.

Sara, only thing I can see that might point to depression about the school thing is what mine is doing...I can't pass anyway so why bother? Depressive attitude leading to lack of compliance.

 

[DammitJanet]

I completely agree with OTE on the therapy angle here. She needs to be in a group DBT class. She sounds like an emerging borderline. The best therapy for this is DBT. She needs a therapist who is skilled in treating teens with this. A skilled DBT therapist will be available basically 24/7.

Re: the cutting, Dreamer gave a good description about why we cut. To move the pain from inside to out. Somewhere I have a really good description of what a borderline rage is like and I will have to find it and post it on here.

 

[DammitJanet]

WARNING: There are swear words in here, very strong emotions, and some descriptions of physical and emotional abuse. Please take this into consideration before reading. The writers of these words retain the copyright: they may not be used elsewhere.

An Interview with Someone Who Self Mutilates

2ND WARNING: This is a very graphic description of self-mutilation. Please consider not reading it if you are someone who does self-mutilate, as it could trigger unwanted feelings. We are placing it on this site to help those who do not cut understand why some people do cut themselves. (This is only a portion of the interview -- the rest hasn't been transcribed). The interview is with a woman in her 20s who is now doing much better, thanks to medication she is taking.

Q. What thoughts are going through your head before the mutilation, during the mutilation, after, how does it make you feel and what specifically what are you doing?

A. It's just despair, absolute despair, hopelessness, anger and rage, that I am unable to cope or express the rage, kind of a mute kind of rage, helpless rage, and a need to express the horror and the blackness inside, and I'm unable to express it or say it or show it so the only way to do that is to mark up my body, and so I don't have to say it. I can say, "look, this is how I'm feeling, and I'm being very logical about this, but it's just a need, it's an addiction." I carry around sharp objects just in case, sleep with knives under my pillow. I kind of disappear in a way, where I'm functioning, and I'm talking, and I'm driving, or here, but my mind is gone somewhere, and so, during the act, it's just this rage and acting out, and wanting to bleed, wanting to see, if I just scratch it, that's not enough, it has to bleed. The desire to see blood, to show blood, sometimes is uncontrollable, to where I can't stop. And then, afterwards, kind of a peacefulness or having been expressed, and then very logical and calm, kind of. But then remorse and anger at myself for doing that, that I said that I wouldn't do that anymore and I did, I couldn't help it.

Q. What triggers cutting?

A. It was triggered even by traffic, today, it's just the anger and frustration of being in a place where I don't want to be. Or helplessness really triggers it, anger, where I've made mistakes, it's kind of my fault, and then there's something else I deal with also, is that I search for attention. I think that's part of the reason that I do it, so I struggle with that, I'm like, God, I think that part of it's reinforced because I get attention, and the shock and the reaction that I get from people, and people don't know how to deal with it, and that's satisfying to me somehow. So then I won't tell people, just because I think that's just doubly sick, if I'm doing this just for attention, and I don't know why I do it, and I've done it ever since I was about 7 or 8, some kind of self-mutilation, always hurting myself.

One time I was in the hospital, I wanted to get out of there very badly. I was so angry at being there, because they wouldn't let me go, and the doctor said, "well, I will come see you today before the day is through, and hopefully, if you are a good girl or whatever we'll let you out." Well, she didn't come and she didn't come, and then I was afraid, I said well she said she'd be here, and she didn't come, and I was so angry, so I found a paper clip that had come off of the food trays from the menus at the hospital, and I cut up my arm until it was bleeding, and then she walked in, and she saw that, and so that's why I had to stay in the hospital, so it's when a promise is broken, when I'm ... let's see, another specific example, supposed to show up at work at a certain time and getting into a minor accident, and my boss yelled at me because I didn't let him know.

Q. You got into the minor accident, and so you came in late?

A. Yes, and I had called, I had called and said, I'm in this, you know, and he didn't get the message. So when I finally did talk to him, he screamed at me, but I had done what I was supposed to do, and so I was misunderstood.

Q. What happened?

A. That was a particularly bad incident, I had taken, what was it, I think it was scissors and just gouged my arm on the top and I have scars all over my arm. Another thing that triggers it is abandonment. There was this person I was interested in, this man, and he was going to India for two years, and just the thought of him leaving me . . .I couldn't deal with it, and that's when I cut up my leg very severely, because he was going to be leaving. I was very conscious of what I'm doing, and I plan it in advance, it's like, OK, well I'm going to do this tonight, and there was about 50, some of them probably needed stitches.

 

[dreamer]

I have not exactly ever um...paid much attention to borderline stuff.....um...my psychiatrist labeled me with bordeline once and , well, um.....I was sad, upset, and then .LOL- offended. I spent LOTS of time with my therapist discussing that diagnosis. bipolar diagnosis did noot ever hit me the same way....

BUT my therapist kinda said it was for me sorta like I hate you- don't leave me. and kind of I love you go away. kinda sorta like um.....I cannot handle rejection and feel abaondoned? My psychiatrist then removed the diagnosis.....and I kinda ignored it? cuz it bothered me more than I wanted to face?

 

[Masta]

OTE: what does DBT stand for.. something therapy?

Dammit Janet: thanks for that interview post…the more I read the more I am concerned about my daughter.. at first I brushed I off as attention seeking.. now I see she has feelings of hurt and despair and she doesn’t know how to let them out other then cutting 

Dreamer: your posts make all of this easier for me to understand.. thank you for sharing what you have experienced. This helps me allot. I appreciate your input.

we all have trials… sometimes we learn from then. Then we can help others with similar situations… I am grateful to this board.

Fostermom said difficult child cuts when she has boy friend troubles. She doesn’t cut daily or whenever she has a hard day. So should difficult child be seeing a pysch as well s a weekly therapist appointment and DBT as well?

 

[dreamer]

I do not have answers for your questions, but- I am glad I could help you understand a little betetr. Sometimes it does help when you can understand somethng a little better. SOmetimes it makes it a little easier to figure out just what to do.
Good luck to you. and hugs. My dtr is also a cutter and I know it is hard to see.

 

[DammitJanet]

DBT...dialectal behavioral therapy

 

[BusynMember]

To me, it sounds like gradiose bipolar thinking. "I'm more important than Jesus."

Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) and bipolar do very often go hand-in-hand and are both genetically linked, although nobody knows how. They just know that 30% of those with Aspergers also suffer mood disorders. Since this child is in Australia, I know nothing about the helathcare system there or how they perceive or treat either Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) or bipolar. Agree that Borderline (BPD) doesn't usually stand alone. I really hope this young adult, so unready to be a young adult, can get the help she needs. You are certainly trying the best you can. Wish I could be more helpful...

 

[Masta]

MidestMom: we immigrated to USA when difficult child was 8yrs to get away from her dad. we have lived in hiding etc coz her dad threatened our lives.

i finally got an email from my difficult child's dcfs worker this evening. all she can say is wow- she knows difficult child is struggling with cutting. she didnt answer any of my questions so i sent her an email that wll hopefully make her realise that im not gonna rest till difficult child gets help.