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Signorina
Guest
Hey TL - the tears are always just a blink away...just felt one now. I know how you feel. You are not alone {hugs}
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toughlovin
Guest
Thanks.... I am so thankful for this group and that there are others here that have been through what I have. I am not glad any of you are also going through it but I am thankful not to be alone.
TL
TL
klmno
Active Member
I think most tx centers use a scale to show the 'stage' of addiction a person is in, based on the evaluation. It doesn't mean the person isn't an addict/alcoholic but not all are in the latter stages of it. Some are functional and not physically addicted- cravings can be psychologically and not necessarily physical. They say true physical addiction comes toward the latter stages- I think right before the last stage and the last stage being where the liver is severely damaged, but I'm not positive about that part. I think of it as being similar to the stages of cancer-still, the person has cancer. on the other hand, obviously there are people who are horrible abusers but not addicts.
The alone times were the worst. I had to avoid certain places because I would start to cry if I went there. Last year I had to call easy child to come to the mall and return something for me that I bought difficult child for Christmas and decided to take back. I couldn't walk in the store because I remembered how difficult child and I shopped there. When easy child got there I was sitting on the bench crying.
You are in my thoughts today TL.
Nancy
You are in my thoughts today TL.
Nancy
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Signorina
Guest
I went with difficult child to his 1 year follow up eye injury appointment on 12/28. I went into the exam room with him. I am glad they do the exam in the dark because as the Dr. described all the complications she was looking for, the tears started rolling down my face. Fortunately, he had none of them and is almost out of the woods as far as permanent sight-threatening damage.
I did manage to tell him in the car that his guardian angel must be getting very tired and he should give her a break.
I wish I could impart to my son that life deals everyone surprisingly painful blows...so stop searching them out...appreciate your health and the love of family and friends...count your blessings...cherish yourself. Trouble finds you when you least expect it so stop looking for it. Cue the eye roll
I did manage to tell him in the car that his guardian angel must be getting very tired and he should give her a break.
I wish I could impart to my son that life deals everyone surprisingly painful blows...so stop searching them out...appreciate your health and the love of family and friends...count your blessings...cherish yourself. Trouble finds you when you least expect it so stop looking for it. Cue the eye roll
I don't believe that true addiction comes right before liver damage(if that's the case my 92 year old father who has been drinking heavily for over 78 years and very very addicted wouldn't be alive right now). I don't think any of the substance abuse treatment enters would agree with that either, but none of that matters. What's important here is that our difficult child's are abusing drugs/alcohol. Whatever we want to call it, drugs and/or alcohol are causing problems in their lives and in the lives of their loved ones. And they are having a very difficult time abstaining from those drugs/alcohol, so there has to be something that draws them to it in the face of overwhelming problems it causes.
Nancy
Nancy
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toughlovin
Guest
I agree with Nancy, I think addiction comes much earlier and i think the real issue is often pscyhological addiction.... but it is also true physical addiction makes it even harder to quit and is its own additional master over the person.
I think the point of physical addiction comes at different points for different drugs. So I don't know if you ever get really physically addicted to marijuana.... although clearly serious psychological addiction to pot happens as many of us can attest to. Certainly physical addiction happens with alcohol but I think it takes a lot of heavy drinking over time to become really physically addicted and that may be where the thought came about it being to the point of liver damage. I have no idea. And then you have drugs like heroin and meth which are highly physically addictive and it doesn't take long to get addicted to those drugs... and that makes them incredibly scary. Certainly there are serious physical side effects to the body from use of those drugs.... don't think you meet very many 80 year old heroin users.
I had another thought today...I have not heard from difficult child today which means he has come up with some plan for himself which is what he needs to do. However I wondered today if he contacted the girl who came to visit.. and is getting a ride back up here. I don't think he would tell us if he was coming back here until he was here and needed something.
Oh well there is nothing I can do.... I need the serenity to accept the things I cannot change....
TL
I think the point of physical addiction comes at different points for different drugs. So I don't know if you ever get really physically addicted to marijuana.... although clearly serious psychological addiction to pot happens as many of us can attest to. Certainly physical addiction happens with alcohol but I think it takes a lot of heavy drinking over time to become really physically addicted and that may be where the thought came about it being to the point of liver damage. I have no idea. And then you have drugs like heroin and meth which are highly physically addictive and it doesn't take long to get addicted to those drugs... and that makes them incredibly scary. Certainly there are serious physical side effects to the body from use of those drugs.... don't think you meet very many 80 year old heroin users.
I had another thought today...I have not heard from difficult child today which means he has come up with some plan for himself which is what he needs to do. However I wondered today if he contacted the girl who came to visit.. and is getting a ride back up here. I don't think he would tell us if he was coming back here until he was here and needed something.
Oh well there is nothing I can do.... I need the serenity to accept the things I cannot change....
TL
klmno
Active Member
Just for clarity, that isn't what I said.
The stages, although not clearly definable, can easily be found by googling them if anyone is interested. Here's just one outline:
http://alcoholselfhelpnews.wordpress.com/2008/05/24/5-stages-of-alcoholism/
The stage of physical addiction comes before deteroiration of the body/organs- that doens't mean 2 days before- it could mean 10 years before or whatever, and that would vary for different people.
My grandfather had to be weaned off alcohol at the hospital after a binge to prevent death, several times, because he was so physically addicted and the last time he died going thru it anyway. That doesn't mean I think people who haven't reached that point aren't really alcoholics (most never reach that point), just that there is obviously a progression to the disease. My son now is entering substance abuse programs (not tx center) and obviously, he isn't physically addicted to anything.. And they keep track of that in tx centers by assigning a 'stage' to a pt.
Sorry, TL- I wasn't trying to steer your thread differently than it was intended. I thought I might be able to add some clarity to the confusion over some getting messages about stages and physical addiction, etc. I do keep you and your son in my thoughts and hope he is finding a way- a plan to make it thru the winter, at least.
ETA: After reading Nancy's post that was posted after this one, I do agree that different drugs have been studied and now they have those on a scale of how physically addictive they are. They say cocaine isn't very physically addictive, but clearly that doesn't mean a person can't be addicted to it, I myself went to tx for cocaine addiction. I was told in the tx center that I was in early stages of addiction and had no physical addiction, but that didn't mean that I wasn't addicted to it. I did have major withdrawal symptoms but they didn't consider that being physically addicted.
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OK "true physical addiction". My thought remains the same.
TL I think he has come up with a plan also. We were told that with heroin one becomes "physically" addicted from the first try and that is why it is so very dangerous. The first high from heroin is so intense that you chase that same high over and over again and it never is quite as intense so you keep trying and then you need more and more and before you know it you can't sdtop. I don't know about your area but here heroin is really big. The druggie neighbor difficult child was living with last year was on heroin and another neighbor was a heroin dealer. He is now in NA and difficult child sees him at a lot of her AA meetings. I'm not happy about that because he is now communicating with her and she even drove him back to his sober house but he is the one who gave her her first pot and I know he is not clean from checking the public court docket.
Nancy
TL I think he has come up with a plan also. We were told that with heroin one becomes "physically" addicted from the first try and that is why it is so very dangerous. The first high from heroin is so intense that you chase that same high over and over again and it never is quite as intense so you keep trying and then you need more and more and before you know it you can't sdtop. I don't know about your area but here heroin is really big. The druggie neighbor difficult child was living with last year was on heroin and another neighbor was a heroin dealer. He is now in NA and difficult child sees him at a lot of her AA meetings. I'm not happy about that because he is now communicating with her and she even drove him back to his sober house but he is the one who gave her her first pot and I know he is not clean from checking the public court docket.
Nancy
TL, it is very probable that your difficult child will find some other substance abusers that will let him sleep on their couches and he will end up moving from house to house for a while. Eventually, they will get tired of him and he will be homeless and at that point will get serious about recovery.
In the meantime, there is nothing you can do but worry. Stay strong, though, and keep posting and we will be here to give you support.
~Kathy
In the meantime, there is nothing you can do but worry. Stay strong, though, and keep posting and we will be here to give you support.
~Kathy
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toughlovin
Guest
Thank you for all your support and giving me a place I can come to and express all my fears and feelings. I am hanging in there. We have not heard a word since Thursday. My gut says this means he is not feeling desperate because when he is desperate he calls us. He may have gotten the message we won't help but given how much we have helped him in the past I doubt that is it. I am checking his phone records... he has not made many calls... a couple to the insurance co which is interesting. He is texting up a storm though as usual. But you are not going to use texting to get a hold of places for help.
And as my husband said this morning he usually is not in contact when he is doing things he knows we would not agree with.
So my fear as Nancy alluded to is that he is getting into heroin....I suspect that is where he is headed if he doesn't get help. Scares me a lot.... but really there is not anything I can do about it.
And Kathy you are probably right he has probably found some sympathetic drug users to help him out for now... how long that will last I don't know.
I suspect I won't hear from him until Wednesday or so when he will get in touch hoping we will put another $75 on the grocery card. I think at that point we will have to say no... thought hat is going to be hard.
The one good thing about not hearing from him is I don't hear the desperation and pleading in his voice that just pulls so hard at my heart strings.
I really hope he hits bottom soon... and then gets himself some help. I hope at that point he at least has the decency to let us know he is ok.
I am really tempted to text him and ask him if he is ok but I think that is opening myself up to the pleading texts and phone calls for help and I really don't want to go there.
It is hard and awful.... and I am trying my best to just keep going forward with my life. Certainly puts a damper on my mood though.... but it is not as bad as it would have been a year ago.
TL
And as my husband said this morning he usually is not in contact when he is doing things he knows we would not agree with.
So my fear as Nancy alluded to is that he is getting into heroin....I suspect that is where he is headed if he doesn't get help. Scares me a lot.... but really there is not anything I can do about it.
And Kathy you are probably right he has probably found some sympathetic drug users to help him out for now... how long that will last I don't know.
I suspect I won't hear from him until Wednesday or so when he will get in touch hoping we will put another $75 on the grocery card. I think at that point we will have to say no... thought hat is going to be hard.
The one good thing about not hearing from him is I don't hear the desperation and pleading in his voice that just pulls so hard at my heart strings.
I really hope he hits bottom soon... and then gets himself some help. I hope at that point he at least has the decency to let us know he is ok.
I am really tempted to text him and ask him if he is ok but I think that is opening myself up to the pleading texts and phone calls for help and I really don't want to go there.
It is hard and awful.... and I am trying my best to just keep going forward with my life. Certainly puts a damper on my mood though.... but it is not as bad as it would have been a year ago.
TL
He will also try to turn this back on you. My difficult child used to tell us that we forced her to sell her prescription drugs because we wouldn't pay her phone bill. Say what??? Um, how about getting a job like the rest of us? At that point, though, she was playing on our fear that she would end up in jail if we didn't help her. Now I just tell her that at least we wouldn't have to keep paying rent for her and she would get three square meals a day. She doesn't try that stuff anymore.
He will try it all. Get your warrior mom armor on and get ready. It's going to be rough for a while but if you stand strong he will be forced to face the consequences of his lifestyle. Hopefully, he will get to the point where he doesn't want to live like that anymore.
~Kathy
He will try it all. Get your warrior mom armor on and get ready. It's going to be rough for a while but if you stand strong he will be forced to face the consequences of his lifestyle. Hopefully, he will get to the point where he doesn't want to live like that anymore.
~Kathy
Oh TL I didn't mean to allude that your son may be into heroin, I don't think he is at all. I was responding to a comment about becoming physically addicted to a drug very early on and that was one that it happens with. Please forgive me if I added to your worry. That disussion never should have taken place on your thread and I am sorry I contributed to it. It was way off the subject.
I agree with you that the not hearing is a little easier than the text pulling at your heartstrings. Your difficult child is so similar to mine in, when she was not in communication with us she had found a place to flop for a while and was not in desperate need of help. Your difficult child and mine know where to find us when they are desperate. Enjoy the peace and quiet while it lasts, renew your strength and commitment to help in in his recovery and nothing else.
I think about you a lot, it is awful when one of our difficult child's is on the street. We have all been there and it is frightening and we all feel that and know what you are going through and hope that he will once again surface and pull himself back up and start the recovery process again.
Nancy
I agree with you that the not hearing is a little easier than the text pulling at your heartstrings. Your difficult child is so similar to mine in, when she was not in communication with us she had found a place to flop for a while and was not in desperate need of help. Your difficult child and mine know where to find us when they are desperate. Enjoy the peace and quiet while it lasts, renew your strength and commitment to help in in his recovery and nothing else.
I think about you a lot, it is awful when one of our difficult child's is on the street. We have all been there and it is frightening and we all feel that and know what you are going through and hope that he will once again surface and pull himself back up and start the recovery process again.
Nancy
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toughlovin
Guest
I hope so Kathy... he has gotten there before. He spent 2 weeks in jail and that did it for a time. He was homeless last summer while we were away and that did it....but I really think all the treatment he has sought has been to get out of jail and being homeless and not really facing his substance abuse problems. So we need to let him really feel it and unfortunately it may mean him getting deeper into the harder drug use before he realizes that the drugs will ruin him. My fear of course is that he won't survive this.....but i have to hold on to the fact that there is at least a big part of him that wants to survive and will find his way.... but yeah I am going to need that warrior mom armour.
I wish I could compartamentalize things like my husband.... I have such a hard time doing that. I know I need to find some major distractions this weekend because that always helps.
One good sign for me is that I went to my weight watchers meeting this morning and forgot my phone!!! Forgot it so that is a good sign!!!! And I lost 2 pounds as I have been making a point not to eat over this as a way to keep taking care of myself.
TL
I wish I could compartamentalize things like my husband.... I have such a hard time doing that. I know I need to find some major distractions this weekend because that always helps.
One good sign for me is that I went to my weight watchers meeting this morning and forgot my phone!!! Forgot it so that is a good sign!!!! And I lost 2 pounds as I have been making a point not to eat over this as a way to keep taking care of myself.
TL
I always knew when things were bad with difficult child because I would lose weight from not eating. I just didn't have an appetite. My husband is much better at compartmentalizing also. I suppose they have to in order to concentrate on work every day. My husband use to go into the office on Monday morning and tell his partner thank god it's Monday. She knew he meant it.
Nancy
Nancy
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While I am not saying that everyone should get a job . . . having a job has really helped me keep my mind off difficult child drama. I get so wrapped up in my school day that I forget about difficult child problems while I am there. I totally understand what your husband was saying, Nancy.
~Kathy
~Kathy
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toughlovin
Guest
I do work which does help.... the problem is in my job I deal with people in crisis a lot of the time, who are dealing with serious trauma... and yet this whole thing with my difficult child is traumatic too... so for awhile I was feeling like I was dealing with trauma at home and at work!! I finally decided I just couldn't be feeling trauma all the time so I cut my hours at work which has really helped. It helps me be at work when I am at work and leave it when I am not. So having some time at home to relax and do other things is really good for me.... but right in the moment because we are feeling the crisis of difficult child I am having problems just being alone and home. Plus sometimes at work I deal with people who are also dealing with difficult adult children... that hits too close to home. Luckily that is not the case most of the time.
So I am about to try and get some stuff done around the house while blasting some old time favorite music....
And Nancy I was worried about heroin before you mentioned it. You didn't make me worry about it, just made me think about a worry that is already there. I know my son has snorted it before... and he is in a place where there are a lot of recovery programd but also a lot of drug addicts. I know him and if he is using again (which is likely) he will use whatever he can get his hands on. So my fear is that he is only steps away from heroin use. Hopefully I am thinking the worst and that actually he is thinking about what a mess he has gotten himself into and how to get out of it.
I have been checking his phone records and I am not seeing much to give me hope... but the calls are often a day behind.
I know I just kind of need to stop thinking about him which of course feels somewhat impossible. We are going to dinner with some good friends tonight who also have a son in a similar situatoin so at least I can talk about it. And tomorrow I hope to just go to the movies. Distraction helps a lot.
I wish I lost weight when I worried.....
I tend to turn to food for comfort which I don't want to do this time around.
TL
So I am about to try and get some stuff done around the house while blasting some old time favorite music....
And Nancy I was worried about heroin before you mentioned it. You didn't make me worry about it, just made me think about a worry that is already there. I know my son has snorted it before... and he is in a place where there are a lot of recovery programd but also a lot of drug addicts. I know him and if he is using again (which is likely) he will use whatever he can get his hands on. So my fear is that he is only steps away from heroin use. Hopefully I am thinking the worst and that actually he is thinking about what a mess he has gotten himself into and how to get out of it.
I have been checking his phone records and I am not seeing much to give me hope... but the calls are often a day behind.
I know I just kind of need to stop thinking about him which of course feels somewhat impossible. We are going to dinner with some good friends tonight who also have a son in a similar situatoin so at least I can talk about it. And tomorrow I hope to just go to the movies. Distraction helps a lot.
I wish I lost weight when I worried.....
I tend to turn to food for comfort which I don't want to do this time around.TL
