but...but...but...but...but

[flutterbee]

Now that I've calmed down and I'm no longer feeling like I'm going to explode.....

You guys are right. She's a victim. She always has been. And I have zero patience with the victim mentality.

I just keep repeating that she has to decide she wants to feel better and then do the work it takes to be able to feel better. She doesn't want to hear it. I keep saying it. When she was complaining how her cousin who has only been in this country for 2 years has so many friends and she doesn't have any (she does have a couple, but since she doesn't see them or talk to them every day she doesn't have any - out of sight, out of mind), I tell her that her cousin decided that she wanted to have friends and she actively pursued it. Potential friends aren't just going to come knocking on the door.

She's way too dependent on me. It's past the age where she should be pulling away and becoming independent. Anytime I come up with anything - and meal planning was one of them, even got 4 or 5 cookbooks out for her to peruse - it has to involve me. She will not do it on her own without a fight. She always comes running to me first about anything. If she can't get something to work - even if it's something I know nothing about - she comes running to me. I tell her repeatedly to keep at it and she'll figure it out. And she does. But, not until after I hear how I don't care and I'm being mean to her.

It's her dependency on me, I think, that is really getting to me more than anything else. Well, that and how she refuses to do anything to help herself - at least without a lot of kicking and screaming. If she weren't capable it would be one thing, but she is capable.

The one example I use time and again is that she could tie her shoes at the babysitter's for a year before she could tie them at home. I push her towards independence and she becomes resentful. And I think she's also resentful at how dependent on me she feels.

It's a no-win situation for either one of us.

So, we are at another kicking and screaming stage. We'll get through it. Hopefully intact.

I just get so weary.

 

[Marguerite]

Heather, you said, "She just told me that the only time she cries is when she's been around me. I'm ready to pack her up and send her away."

What I'm seeing in all these posts - a pattern. You are beginning to react to what she says. This is then interpreted by her as you giving a tinker's cuss, and therefore justification for her to keep dumping more of her negativity onto you.

It's not good for either of you.

You are so right when you say she is negative. It really is negativity, it is also her fears of "I'm not good enough for the world," and "Nothing goes right in my life, I am a total failure at everything, and everything fails me."

difficult child 3 does similar things. He could be having quite a good day, but somewhere in there he has been keeping score of all the things that go wrong. For example, shopping around for a SD card for the computer game system (he uses it to store downloaded information and games). If the first shop he goes into, to find out what they've got and how much, just doesn't have any in stock, then it's his worst day ever and nothing is going right.
If at the end of the day he's checked ALL the shops and found that none have any in stock, then this compounds. Often we get tantrums with him raging at me about how unfair the world is and how everything in the universe is conspiring to make his life miserable.
This afternoon we bought a card, for a great price. Is it his happiest day ever? Nope. But at least he's not miserable. Not that the moment. But later on, something could make him miserable and again, it will be utter devastation to him.

When she says the universe is conspiring to make her life a misery, the best response (although it will often make their temper worse), is "Honey, the universe doesn't give a rats about you. You are just not that important to the universe. None of us are." Sometimes we just have to say it, take it out of Basket B and put it in Basket A.

As long as YOU are not the one getting in her way, as long as all you are doing is AGREEING that it doesn't seem fair, she can't attack you for stating the obvious.

At the moment, Heather, you seem to be trying to cope with her by refuting her arguments (even if it's only in your own head). And she keeps doing it. So either you're encouraging her, or making her more determined to convince you that her life is a toilet and will never improve from here.

So try this next time - agree with her. Yes, it's unfair. Yes, the universe is out to get her. Watch out, she runs a much higher risk than the rest of us, of being struck by meteors while sunbathing. "Yes, darling, you are important enough to the cosmos for it to deliberately conspire to cause pimples, to cause the colour pink to exist, to put a run in your stockings, to give you an unsympathetic mother. So, little darling, if the universe in all its grandeur is out to get you, what on earth do you expect your poor insignificant, uncaring mother to do about it?"

Agree with her, and take it even further. See what happens. Hopefully it will be like she has slammed her shoulder into a door, expecting it to be locked, just as you've thrown it open.

What you're waiting to hear from her is, "Oh, I wouldn't go THAT far..."

There are several aims to this exercise.

1) To have her off-balance.

2) To break the current pattern of her saying, "It's black," and you saying, "It's white."

3) To help you feel more relaxed and to not engage in her determination to make you as miserable as she feels she is.

4) To maybe snap her back to some sense of balance in realty.

I know Dr Phil is not always popular on this site, but something I saw the other day was useful. (remember, our episodes' programming bear little connection to when they air elsewhere in the world).
A family were feuding, and everyone was blaming ONE person. "It's all HER fault. She's a destroyer. She's evil personified. It's utter catastrophe. It's ghastly. It's horrifying. She is the devil incarnate. She's a psychopath. When I received her note I felt utterly devastated, run through the heart."
Dr Phil made the point that the REACTION to this person (whether justified or not) was way over the top. He said, "I've come form the hospital where I'm working with a six year old kid with severe burns. Now THAT's horrifying. This conflict between you - it doesn't even come close."

Next time she tries to engage you in the wee small hours, hold up your hand and say, "Stop. Is this so earth-shattering that it must be discussed now? Is there anything in what you want to say, that will no longer be valid in the morning? For example, is the house on fire? Is Paul Revere riding down the main street calling out a warning? Is there an air raid? NO? In which case, wait until I've had my sleep. Anything you try to discuss now, unless it fits into those categories already mentioned, will not be heard. If you MUST talk, call the 24 hour counselling line." [We have Lifeline here in Sydney, 24/7 counsellors available over the phone. I freely admit to having rung them.]

I am aware that our kids have a burning need to express every thought that crosses their brain. There is a fear that if they don't say it, they will forget it and that would be a potential disaster. Maybe it's a sense of dread that something bad is going to happen and if they don't share every possible thought that could be connected with this sense of dread, they will fail to have adequately warned us.

easy child 2/difficult child 2 is a shocker with this. difficult child 3 is at least beginning to be moderately reasonable, but his older sister - constantly using sarcasm, a superior attitude, nagging and nitpicking to ram her point home regardless of anything I might have to say.

Something I have had to do at times - if she MUST talk, I set a time limit. I ask her how long she feels she needs to say what needs to be said. Then I set the oven timer and sit back and wait for her to finish. I do not interrupt, although I might take notes.

When she is finished, it's my turn. I re-set the oven timer. I speak (no interruptions please; I did not interrupt you) and calmly answer her points. If I feel she has a valid concern, I say so.

Once we've both said what has to be said, the discussion is over.

And we ONLY do this if we have the time to do so. If she says, "I MUST talk to you about this now," and tells me when I ask, that it will take her ten minutes, and I haven't GOT ten minutes, I tell her that we ned to postpone it until I DO have ten minutes (20 minutes, actually, for my response to be included).

What our kids do, is they go round and round. Over and over. If they're feeling really upset about something and telling us once hasn't got it sufficiently out of their systems, they will tell us again. And again.

A big clue that this is happening, is when you say to them, "Yes dear, you already told me that," and her response is, "But you didn't seem to notice what I said!" or "You obviously weren't listening to me!"

That sense of not being heard is actually her feelings still being outraged at life's unfairness, and those feelings not being completely dissipated by dumping on you.

It's a lesson that needs to be learned through experience. Setting time limits is one way. Agreeing beforehand to stop when we hear repetitions is another, but she has to have the maturity to agree to this and accept it. Probably not ready yet.

ANd that sentence of yours that I quoted at the beginning of my post - if she cries because she has been talking to you (and I think this is maybe because she is trying to share her very negative feelings with you, in the hope of making them go away; which they won't, if she isn't fixing the problems herself) - that sentence can be turned back onto her. "Gee, honey - we are so much alike! The only time I cry these days, is after you've been talking to me. Maybe I could run away instead? Hmm, yes, I think I'd like that. No meals to cook, no laundry to do, no carting kids here or there... I just have to remember to pack a couple of good books to read and my fluffy slippers."

Good luck.

Marg

 

[busywend]

Heather, I am having PTSD just reading this post.

The best advice I can give you is to detach. Do not take ANYTHING she says personally. Try not to give too much direction - do more 'and how is that working for you?' answers. When she is bored - the response is 'I am so sorry to hear that.' If she takes well to humor - use it ALOT. If she gets bored hearing about you, then follow that 'I am sorry to hear that response' with a very long, boring story about what you did when you were bored. Do not feed into her 'me' syndrome.

At 13, I had no idea what I was in for in the next few years. I do not envy you. Hang on because it will be a bumpy ride. You have to prepare yourself and find an escape mechanism now. Be prepared.

The washing the face thing I still deal with. Heck, I told her I would get her proactive if she could prove to me she would use it. All she had to do was wash her face every evening for a month. We bought new facial wash for her. It lasted all of two days. Obviously, the acne is not bothering her that much.

The killer is when my mom comes to me to tell me my daughter could use some acne cream and should probably see a dermatologist. I told her as soon as she could show me she would follow the direction of the dermatologist, by following one simple direction from me, I would take her.

I really think the detachment is what got difficult child and I through the worst of the dark years.

 

[timer lady]

Heather,

Our difficult children are so very needy - they develop at a far different rate. Even though it's far past time for her to individuate, her emotional age is far different.

I've been through this with kt. (It's the Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD)) Heck, she's just starting to pull away from mom & dad & this should have started when she was 4 or 5. She's been clingy & insecure all this time. Now, she's individuating as a teen as well. On any given day I have a toddler back on my hands or a very mouthy teen. It gets to me.

All I can do is be flexible with the situation & parent kt as she is asking to be parented. In her toddler state she needs a great deal more cuddle time & structure. The mouthy teen needs a bit more freedom & responsibility.

In the meantime, I continue to push for 14 year old kt; to continue to grow & not regress. I'm sorry if I'm rambling - all I know is this is a tough line to hold to.

 

[Andy]

Wyntersgrace, I am sorry for offending with the "normal child'. I guess I sometimes struggle to know what is normal and what is not for my kids and find support when someone tells me something is normal or atleast something about it is normal - like you said it is how Wynter deals with life, not where she is at that makes her life harder. It is frustrating when the real expert (you) know something is not where it should be and the "professionals" wont listen because your child doesn't fit criteria they have set up. They are saying, "Doesn't fit our criteria" instead of looking at "doesn't fit normal what can it be, how can we help?"

I can strongly relate with the dependence on mom. When my difficult child was in the psychiatric hospital, an activity they had him do was to collage a line of fears/anxieties (sickness, injury, school work, nightmares, whatever). He was then to collage next to each what made him feel better when facing these. The SW gave me a little scolding on this one because next to every single one was a picture of a lady representing me. I wasn't surprised.

As the days and years go on we find ourselves unknowingly doing things that we do not need to do. Like tying the shoes, we get in the habit and often in too much of a hurry to let the child tie their own shoes and one day we wake up and they are far beyond doing so themselves or like in your case, they knew how but enjoyed mom's attention in even this little task. We know it is a dangerous world out there so we encourage our children to always come to us when they have a problem (trying to prepare them for teen years to know we will help). difficult children tend to take this support too literally - mom will solve everything! And as they grow into that belief we unknowingly fall into doing so, not on purpose, just by quiet nature.

Wynter loves how you have helped her. You love her and have chosen to do what a loving mother does. She is trying to figure out how to grow up but still feel that you will continue doing all the little things we do for young children but need to stop doing once they start being more independent. difficult children don't understand why parents stop the tieing of shoes, the giving of baths, ect. Instead of seeing it as independence on their part, they see us as being mean.

This may not sound like I want to explain it - just to know what a confusing age she is at and sometimes the harder teenagers try to push you away, the harder they are crying on the inside wanting you to stay closer than ever. They are confused and then when they add difficult child characteristics to the mix, it even gets scary to feel that independence.

You are doing a great job. I do learn alot from you and I have a feeling that as Wynter goes through these next few years, I will be learning even more through your experiences.

 

[flutterbee]

I am reacting. I'm not so detached at the moment. I usually do better. My resources are down. Hell, they're almost depleted. I need to recharge. I don't know when or how that is going to happen.

I don't mind being a single parent. It's the only way I know how to parent. But, I am the only one dealing with her. I am the only one she dumps on. And I'm running on empty. I don't feel good. Ever. And the last couple three weeks have been worse.

My tolerance level is almost non-existent. I find myself resentful of how much she demands from me. I find myself resentful of how critical she is of every single person out there, but she is such a victim. She doesn't make the connection between her behavior and the responses of others. We've been working on that alone for years.

And sometimes I feel like I'm just beating my head against a wall for all the progress we're making. I find myself resentful that she is so damn stubborn and so headstrong in her own self-defeat and then turns it around and blames it on everyone but herself.

I love my child fiercely. But she's always needed so much and then some more. I'm out of internal resources right now. And I want to scream at her and tell her that I know she's struggling, but so am I and I can't be her everything. She has to start drawing on her own resources that I've worked so hard to help her build.

 

[Marguerite]

I remember when easy child 2/difficult child 2 was a toddler, she had me exhausted and shell-shocked. At the time I was also a volunteer telephone counsellor, with calls diverted to my home phone. One particular client was very needy and (from what I worked out later) narcissistic plus Munchhausen's. This client was an extreme emotional drain, and then I'd get off the phone (eventually) to have to deal with a toddler who used the same tone of voice and air of disapproval. Once I realised I was in the firing line form all directions and it felt like I was trapped by this attitude (from the client as well as the baby) I shut off contact and changed direction. I cancelled the counselling (palmed it all onto someone else and began monitoring my calls) and focussed more on easy child 2/difficult child 2, to try to prevent her responses from going down that destructive path.

I found at that point that easy child 2/difficult child 2 was VERY demanding and also very rigid in her views. But keeping her busy seemed to help and it bought me time to mentally re-group so I could begin to recharge my batteries.

The self-defeat and then the corresponding ducking out of personal responsibility for it, sounds to me the most exhausting for you. But she is going to continue to do this, because it is working for her. She's following the "a problem shared is a problem halved" routine, totally uncaring that in actual fact, a problem shared just means two people are now worrying, often even more.

She is still being the selfish baby, complaining that things are not exactly perfect and 100% fit to what she wants, and then expecting/demanding YOU make it all better. She is looking to Mummy to fix everything and make all her problems go away.

And it's not working. Of course it's not - because life isn't like that. A big part of her problem is she is refusing to see this, and is becoming increasingly blinkered in her approach to life, in order to avoid having to see that she is now personally responsible.

Before you can help her, you need to help yourself and get your own emotional strength back. From there, you can begin to help her (but NOT by fixing it, from here on you have to work towards showing HER how to fix it for herself).

A starting point - when she is dumping on you (at a time when you are ready to hear it) begin making a list of the salient points. If you can, keep her moving on to the next point. If she accuses you of scribbling on paper instead of listening, then read back what you have by saying, "Just let e check the list with you so far - you've said you are concerned about X, Y and Z. Have I got it right, or do I need to add a bit more? Now, what else is on the agenda?"

Once you have the list, you workshop together on how to get things sorted. Maybe it's a priority - Y has to be done before X, because X requires paperwork form Y's completion in order to get started.

Develop a flow chart of what to do, and when. Talk to her about it. Ask if there's anything missing that needs to be included. Then the next step is to put things in motion. This is where it gets difficult - the first step that difficult child has to take, is the scariest. And it IS permissible for you to help at this point. If the first step is to telephone a counsellor or the doctor, then YOU do it but with her in the room. After all, if you're doing something on her behalf, she should at least show you the courtesy of sticking around to make sure you get across all her concerns.
And then if the person wants to check something with difficult child herself, you can quickly hand over the phone while they do so.

Once the first phone call is done, you can then cross that task off the list with a flourish. Add anything else that needs to be done. Put dates in there, so you both know when something has to be done by.

You see why I feel you need to re-charge your batteries before you undertake this.

But once you get started on this route, it does get a bit easier.

easy child 2/difficult child 2 was hurting at me about how her lecturers didn't understand, they kept asking for X from her and they should KNOW that her disability prevents this. Surely this is discriminatory? She would wail at me, keep bringing the subject up, cry at me, run off in a tantrum, I was feeling battered emotionally by it all. But easy child 2/difficult child 2, although talking at me, refused to talk to her lecturers or her counsellor, who SHOULD have been getting all this. Instead, I was getting phone calls form the lecturers that easy child 2/difficult child 2 refused to return. The situation was getting more urgent which was making easy child 2/difficult child 2 more anxious and more panicked, and more tearful etc.

So I took notes, then I ran the list past her. Yes, I'd got it in a nutshell. I then asked, "Shall I telephone the counselling unit?"
She didn't want to talk to the counsellor herself, because she knew she would cry. But she listened in while I talked (from my notes) and when I finished the call, she gave me a hug and said I had got it exactly right.

The following week her lecturers talked to her after class and said they'd heard from the counsellor, and as a result they'd made modifications to their requirements for her, to take her disability into account.

easy child 2/difficult child 2 could have sorted her problems quickly by communicating with the right people. Instead, she "communicated" with me, wasting time and opportunity and not meeting her own responsibilities in the matter.

I threw it back to where it was supposed to go and started the process off to have it back in her hands again. Her stress levels dropped to the point where she has taken on more personal responsibility and coped better.

They are a real headache when they do this and it's a vicious circle when you get stuck in their loop. But someone has to break the cycle and step out of the loop, before beginning the process to put things back in their proper sequence.

Heather, somehow you need time out from this process. If you can't begin the process I suggested, then can you talk to difficult child and ask for a moratorium period? "I will try to help you find some practical solutions to all this, but you need to give me space on this topic for a while. How long can you agree to give me?"

Here's hoping something can work here.

Marg

 

[Charmedpea]

Oh i know that tone all to well. Mine is the same age as yours. When we started therapy, I had to go into ever session. I was surprised she wanted me in their. Ok I did most of the talking and she never liked what I said. After her overdose, I told her you are going in by yourself. I am not going in with you anymore. she was ok with that.

does she like to play any sports? Mine used to love softball, she is good at it unless you stick her in a position she will tell you she *****. Umm its going to take more then 5 mins to get good in any position and practice. she loved softball 5 weeks ago. Now the last 3 weeks she hates it. going into high school we are not letting her quit the season one because that is not good sportsman ship, 2 she is needed on the team they have exactly enough to play. 3 she is going to finish what she starts. 4 We paid over 100.00 for her to play this season for fee's, cleats, glove. etc.

so when she got really bad we told her fine you want to quit. First you have to go to the whole team and tell them you quit. Every time they have a game & practice you will be in the house cleaning for the duration of practice and game. and you can't go to your friends house during those times either.

Lets just say she is still on the team. She doesnt like it but when she is their she plays nice with the girls and plays hard. I think it would help alot if they won a darn game.

My daughter with the acne is the same way omg you have one pimple. Let go to the dr. I have ignored her. I'm not spending all the money for a pimple.

does your daughter know how to straight her hair? Maybe you can teach her how to do it.

I didnt read all the other replies. but that has been my last couple of weeks with her. she is such a joy

 

[TerryJ2]

What a time you have had.
You've gotten some great ideas and advice here. I can't add much to it, except that my son is sometimes as needy as your daughter. I LOVE telling him that if he's bored, there is plenty of cleaning to do around here!
Now that he's at camp for a month, he can no longer blame me for everything. He will have to learn how to do things he's never done b4, and develop new skills and self confidence. I feel like a bird pushing the fledgling out of the nest. It's scary but it's the right thing to do. My difficult child has very poor coping skills (as your difficult child) and sometimes a change of pace is warranted.
I like Charmed Pea's ideas for some kind of sport where she's obligated to others.
I know you're exhausted. And detachment is essential. I had to reach a point where I was ready to give up and didn't really care if my difficult child walked out into traffic b4 I was able to come back to ctr. Or at least, not as vulnerable and attached by an umbilical cord as I originally was.
I hope you can sort through some things over the weekend.

 

[flutterbee]

So you guys tell me things and beat me over the head with it and finally one day I go, "Ohhhhhh!". Guess I know where my daughter gets her stubbornness.

I'd been thinking about this since I posted - and a lot last night, especially - and imagine my surprise when I was chatting with MB tonight and she said it to me before I could say it to her: Somewhere along the way my daughter has come to the conclusion that she is my equal.

Obviously, I have something to do with that. It wasn't intentional. It certainly wasn't always this way. But I've been sick for a long time and I often find myself just trying to get through the next mini-crisis or meltdown without thinking about the long term cost, Know what I mean?? Somewhere along the way I started walking on eggshells around my daughter. And I find myself wondering why. Yeah, I don't want the tension and the fallout, but not only will she get over it she also has to realize that you don't get away with this stuff in the real world. (Which, by the way, I'm certain she knows because she doesn't do this stuff with anyone but me and my mom.) And I am perfectly capable of not letting her mood effect mine. Afterall, one really can't makes us feel a certain way without our permission.

So, if she gets mad or goes on about how I'm such a horrible mother, so be it. It's self-serving for her because it gets a reaction. It gets her something she wants.

I know I've been all over the place on this thread. But, I really think it all boils down to how much control she thinks she has in the house. If that makes sense. Yes, she has issues that need addressed and yes she needs therapy and probably medications and yes life is going to be harder for her. But, she is the only one holding herself back and by continuing to try to reason with her and placate her in order to try to make things easier for her and to avoid a battle, I am only hindering her and making everyone miserable.

Mama Bear is back.

 

[KTMom91]

Heather, it makes perfect sense. Somewhere along the line, Miss KT decided she had an adult's input into things, and Hubby was nothing more than something stuck to the bottom of her shoe. The only thing I could think of was the difficult child sense of entitlement.

But it bugs, it bugs, it bugs! Sending hugs and some peaceful quiet.

 

[Andy]

Now that's the Wyntersgrace I have come to know!

 

[TerryJ2]

Somewhere along the way my daughter has come to the conclusion that she is my equal.


Oooh, that's exactly the way my son is!

Way To Go, Mama Bear.

 

[juliabohemian]

Somewhere along the way my daughter has come to the conclusion that she is my equal.

Thank you so much. My daughter is 8 and she's completely oblivious to the fact that I'm the parent and she's the child.

 

[Marguerite]

Julia, if you identified so much with this thread, then even more do I stand by what I wrote to you, in your thread. And you can't force your daughter to ever see that you're the authority figure - she will never accept it that way. She needs to be shown a different way. Our difficult children CAN learn, they just need to find the way that works best for them because so often it's just that their brains are wired slightly differently. It's like how I had to learn my own way of handwriting, because I'm a left-hander. Learning to write at school with quill and ink, when you're a left-hander - you have to find the way that won't smudge the ink. Nobody taught me, because allowing left-handers to REMAIN left-handers was very new and all my teachers were right-handers. But I worked out my own way and from that point I could keep up. In contrast, my eldest sister was forced to change to using her right hand and for some time was VERY much a difficult child as a result.

It is difficult here, for us to 'hear' the nuance of a tone of voice, but I can 'hear' Heather's daughter's sense of aggrieved entitlement because it is so familiar to me, also. difficult child 3 still comes out with this sort of stuff especially with husband, but to much less extent.

Because I never saw easy child 2/difficult child 2 as having a problem, I never did what I should have with her, and really worked on this sort of problem. As a result, she is a problem NOW, and at 21 it's really a bit too late. WHen I look at how my girl is now, and look back (with the benefit of the "retrospectroscope" for using 20:20 hindsight) I CAN see the Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) component in her which was so well masked by her astronomically high IQ.

The brighter they are, the better they are at SEEMING normal. But it is like the swan on the lake - it looks so peaceful and serene as it glides, but we never get to see all the furious activity beneath the surface, which is needed to make all that serenity seem so effortless.

In another thread Heather has shown how a change in her response to her daughter seems to be bringing results. Sometimes it takes less than we thought. Underneath it all, I think Heather's daughter is looking for predictability and structure, while Heather was perhaps trying to placate and give her daughter some space (which is what a lot of parents would think their child would value). But sometimes a difficult child, especially one who underneath it all is still feeling very unsure of herself) really craves conformity and predictability. It just seems out of character, for a Goth!

And Heather, on the Goth topic - I posted a song in Watercooler for you, to help you smile again at your daughter. husband found it for me, it very much applies to easy child 2/difficult child 2.

Marg