More on my sociopath daughter

[2much2recover]

After reading another post about pregnancy I decided to do another post about my daughter. I hope that by sharing the information someone else can benefit in the long run. I relate to so many here when my daughter was younger - at this point of my life I choose no contact and for good reason.

So yesterday I had my therapy session and the post about someone maybe being a grandma reminded me of some of my daughters behavior so I decided to take it up with him.

Here is what we talked about: When Difficult Child was younger (she has now had a hysterectomy) she would PLAN AND get pregnant with him (whoever him was) Then she would go and have an abortion and tell the person that she "lost" the baby i.e. a "sympathetic" miscarriage. How do I know that's true? Because she involved me in it on one occasion (had me take her to the clinic and then tell the father of the baby) When I called to tell him he was so heartbroken.........and so he told me how they worked "so hard" to have the baby. Such a different story than what she told me. The sole reason I decided to go with her is that she already had (at the time) a 13 year old son and was the worst mother so I knew it was a really bad idea for her to have another child, for the child's sake. (I know it happened other times because after this happened I was able to piece it together) I am one of these people that are Pro-Choice AND anti-abortion. Meaning for me, I am past the age where I should be getting politically involved in what a woman does with her body. The thing is my own daughter tried to drag me through the grief of aborting my own grandchild (she had no idea how I felt about her as a mother, but she tried to manipulate me and my feelings)! And for God's sake can you imagine what she was doing to the men in these situations? My daughter went on the marry the "father" of that last abortion and to this day he has no idea of the truth. (Sadly that would have been his only child) They have been married five years and I really like him, he is a great guy. She truly doesn't deserve him. The reason she married him was because he had been hanging around in the background of her life and when she blew up our company financially, had blown through every nickle that came her way; the husband, being an only child, his father died, left him everything including an insurance policy. So Difficult Child hopped right on him with all her charm and manipulation and married him so she could keep her house out of foreclosure.

After relating the story to my therapist you could just tell by his face that he was outraged. He told me that not only is she a huge sociopath but hugely Narcissistic as well and If I know what is good for me I will stay the far away from her. Double lock the doors and bring down the shades!

So I bring you this story to day to share with you what some of you here (the parents of the Adult younger ones mostly) could be dealing with in the future. Maybe as I share what it is like, my experiences with my daughter, I can save some of you the pain and heartache I have been through.

Also for those that are reading this for the first time, my therapist asked me a very important question a few months ago about daughter being a sociopath - who does her behavior, in your family, remind you of? That important question allowed me to finally let go of all the self blame, the guilt tripping I was doing to myself because now I understood the DNA connection. My daughter, my lovely darling little baby girl, is no more. She is beautiful, she is brilliant and intelligent, she is charming and sophisticated; she is also a liar and a manipulator of the highest order, she truly is a sociopath in all it's vile ways.

 

[Echolette]

That is a really sad story. I am very sorry this happened to you and that you live with those memories. It is awful to have to let go of our hopes and dreams and the very real memories of a lovely child. Bless you and keep you today.

 

[2much2recover]

In a story like mine, well there is so much more, I will tell it as it comes up. But in a story like mine, you see, in the end, you have no choice but to save yourself. It IS very hard because not only did I want more children, and she ended up being an only out of choice, well it's so sad because it feels like such a huge loss when I dwell on it, which I try very hard not to do for my own sanity.

 

[feelingfrustrated]

Your story has brought several tears to my eyes. Being a grandparent is a joyous experience and the coldhearted selfishness of your daughter both takes my breath away and enrages me. I appreciate the fact that you choose to share the pain you have experienced/are experiencing. I feel for your loss, but I am encouraged by the fact that you have been able to "save" yourself. And thank you very much for your words of experience - they have helped me considerably.

 

[2much2recover]

You know the thing is I am now able to look back, even as a baby she was manipulating, something I remember, when I would tell her NO about something, ( no spanking, no smacking) she would crawl away and make herself vomit to stop everything - to clean her and the vomit up. How does such a young one figure out how to do something like that?
I tell, you, all of you having serious issues with you adult children and think: who do they remind you of. Once you take that step you can determine whether true change is possible or if it is only going to be years of heartache for you!

 

[BusynMember]

It is only joyous to be a grandmother if it is easy and fun to see the grandchild. I have two legal grandchildren I've never seen and have no attempted to see. Legally, I can't force my GoneBoy son to let me see them. Grandparents have no rights. I enjoy Skyping with my grandson in Missouri, but he lives pretty far away and I don't get to hug him in person much, although I plan to this year. My granddaughter is the joy of my life. She makes up for the two boys of Goneboys that I never met.

So grandchildren CAN be a joy, if the parents want them to have a relationship with you. Otherwise, in my opinion, they are just more heartache. I choose to focus on my precious granddaughter and enjoy my grandson that I have contact with and not mourn the two I don't even know. It is best I never met them. GoneBoy didn't withhold them from me to be kind, but he actually was kind to never let me see then rather than let me see them then use them as a weapon.

 

[2much2recover]

The couple of responses did make me feel my own very dark feelings about Difficult Child.
Me, maternal, Mother Earth type, with a daughter who is able to get pregnant and tosses the potential babies away like tissues. Sad, really sad.

 

[Lil]

Wow. I'm so sorry 2M2R...how horrible. I've always been pro-choice within reason, but my God to put yourself thru that, thru a medical procedure...to gain what, exactly? Sympathy? To hurt the father's? What a piece of work. It is amazing what some people will do.

 

[recoveringenabler]

I'm so sorry 2m2r, that is a very sad tale. I'm sorry you had to go through that. I can so relate to the loss. I too only have one child. There is so much to let go of. My heart goes out to you and joins yours in that level of sorrow........and I completely understand how it's absolutely necessary to not dwell on it. I'm right there with you too. Bless you 2m2r, you've dealt with a lot.......hugs......

 

[Tanya M]

2M2R, thank you for sharing such a painful part of your past. There will be some that will read your words and will know they are not alone. It's so important to share as I have learned that many people will read the posts on this forum for months or years before they are able to post their own stories.

 

[Childofmine]

2 much 2 recover...but you know, you are NOT your name. You are recovering. You show that in every word that you write. At a tremendous cost, yes, your story tells the awful cost. But you are surviving and you are saving yourself.

In thinking about what you wrote, you want to ask Why? What in the world could be the purpose of your daughter's behavior?

That is a pointless question, I realize.

We are no match for them. When they are like your daughter, or like my son in the depths of his active addiction, we are simply no match for them.

Then, we have to step away. If we don't, we can be swallowed up in it too.

Your story is sobering. It makes me stop. All I can really say is this: We care, we get it and we are here for you.

I'm just so sorry.

 

[2much2recover]

2much2recover actually mean's I can not recover my relationship with Difficult Child, and I recently ( before I found this group) I realized that I can't have her in my life. I can't do it. I am way too physicality ill to do it anymore. I no longer have the capacity to even try to outsmart, outwit her. A relationship with a sociopath is nothing but games of me, me, me! She would actually call to "check " on me, and when she would hear from me that I was having a really painful time she would mimic that she was sorry and " poor mommy" then keep me on the phone with a bunch of nothing for long periods of time and even call me later in the evening, disrupting my much needed rest. She never offered any help to me or my husband, my main caregiver, and in fact had no respect for him or the great job he does in caring for me. Personally, I began to believe the only reason she bothered was she was trying to figure out a way to finagle some chunk of money from us for one of her schemes. Yep, that's right, after she had already cheated me out of my money meant to take care of me because I am disabled, she thought we were stupid enough to do it again! I can't recover the relationship because she is predatory and my husband and I have to protect ourselves from her so we can continue to live a comfortable life AND save from what we do have for my long term health needs.
We ( husband and I) have been through some real ugliness with Difficult Child and we won't do it anymore.
While sociopaths are different than psychopaths in that a psychopath is much more violent than a sociopath, dealing with a sociopath can be a real soul killer. And we don't kid ourselves that she could turn to violence to financially enhance her own life if she didn't fear the consequences.

As things come up in this group that remind me of her sick behavior I will share more of what life with her has been like. There is just so much it is overwhelming to do all at once. I, tried, Lord knows I tried but I am no match for the games she plays so I am out!

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

...my therapist asked me a very important question a few months ago about daughter being a sociopath - who does her behavior, in your family, remind you of? That important question allowed me to finally let go of all the self blame, the guilt tripping I was doing to myself because now I understood the DNA connection.

Sharing your story with us has given me this tool, this new way of seeing my situation too, 2much. Blaming ourselves leaves us trailing visible clouds of guilt and self-doubt, advertising our brokenness and making us vulnerable to further, crazier kinds of exploitation.

It is a strange thing that once you ask the question in that way, you see it so clearly that you wonder how you managed for all these years not to see it.

And then, you realize there were alot of things you have not allowed yourself to see.

The things you post for us about mental illness and personality disorders and genetic heritages have been very strengthening, for me.

You are very right when you post to us about guilt making us weak and leading us off in all the wrong directions.

I never could shake it before.

Cedar

 

[CrazyinVA]

Just want to say, I get it. I'm not sure I have an answer to the "who does she remind you of" when it comes to my kids, at least, not exactly. There are definitely some similar traits in some other family members, but Oldest in particular is pretty unique in her specific behavior issues. But I've learned enough about mental illness to know that I'm not to "blame." It's a complicated history and acombination of factors, including genetics.

You've had a long, weary road with your daughter, on top of dealing with chronic pain. I hope this new path has brought you some peace.

 

[2much2recover]

There are definitely some similar traits in some other family members,

Well when I was asked the question I knew exactly who she reminded me off - my maternal grandmother. It doesn't have to be THIS or YOUR generation - just look around and see if ANY other family members had similar traits. Also this isn't just for sociopaths, you can do this for any personality disorder or mental illness. It is only helpful in that once you see the DNA connection you can understand why your Difficult Child may have turned out the way they did despite everything you have tried doing for them or done to help them.

 

[CrazyinVA]

In this case, it's a mixture of DNA from both sides of her gene pool, unfortunately! A "perfect storm" of genes and circumstances, if you will. I gave up blaming myself - I know I did the best I could with what I knew. It's very freeing, once you get there. Even if old habits try to sneak back in once in awhile

I do get why your therapist gave that advice, it makes sense. Mental illness (and addiction) runs in families, and all the well-intentioned parenting in the world can't change that.

 

[2much2recover]

In this case, it's a mixture of DNA from both sides of her gene pool, unfortunately! A "perfect storm" of genes and circumstances, if you will. I gave up blaming myself - I know I did the best I could with what I knew. It's very freeing, once you get there. Even if old habits try to sneak back in once in awhile

I do get why your therapist gave that advice, it makes sense. Mental illness (and addiction) runs in families, and all the well-intentioned parenting in the world can't change that.

Yes by I want to be perfectly CLEAR, just because is may be in your gene pool, doesn't mean that you have it. It is like some families have blue eyes, some brown. Some will inherit the genes, some not. I hope this clears up any self-blame people may put on themselves. If one of your children inherited the "bad" DNA that skipped you, of course you are going to get stuck trying to understand them and their behavior. It is truly like you are talking two different languages.
They their thinking is: Go Baby GO, while you's is thinking: Whoa, Baby Whoa!

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

I like your new avatar, 2much.

Sparkly pink Supermom.

I really like it.

:O)

***

So, this is something I have been thinking about in relation to the genetics topic. It seems there is a caretaker type in every dysfunctional family, too. I had always thought that was a role. But this could be genetically predetermined, as well. There is research out there indicating that our sexuality is expressed along a continuum, with some of us being very female in a female body and, way on the other side of the continuum, some of us being very female in a male body and vice versa. It could be that same way with empathy, or sociopathy and etc. Empath on one side of the continuum and sociopath on the other, both genetic potentials being expressed as frequently as blue eyes or red hair.

The more I think like this, the less harshly I judge any of us ~ my kids, or even myself. This is a new feeling, and a welcome one. I had so small an understanding of how heavy that burden of guilt was. I think the PTSD response (for me) is keyed by guilt. I think guilt at what I might have done freezes me in place because whatever it was, I don't want to do it again. Then, I have to fight my way through my own numb so that I can function rationally. It's the strangest feeling. That is why it is so helpful to me to have the words to say, the words I've learned here, when something bad happens with the kids, I suppose.

I pronounced them by rote, in the beginning, when I first came here.

Now, I believe it, too.

(I do think an abusive parent makes a choice, because the nature of the abuse changes as the children get too big to terrorize. So my mom is no way off the hook here, genetics or not.)

Heh.

Cedar

 

[2much2recover]

Empath on one side of the continuum and sociopath on the other, both genetic potentials being expressed as frequently as blue eyes or red hair.

Ironically you bring this up because my therapist says I am an Empath. So yes, my daughter and I are on totally opposite ends of the spectrum in your example.

The more I think like this, the less harshly I judge any of us ~ my kids, or even myself. This is a new feeling, and a welcome one. I had so small an understanding of how heavy that burden of guilt was. I think the PTSD response (for me) is keyed by guilt. I think guilt at what I might have done freezes me in place because whatever it was, I don't want to do it again. Then, I have to fight my way through my own numb so that I can function rationally. It's the strangest feeling. That is why it is so helpful to me to have the words to say, the words I've learned here, when something bad happens with the kids, I suppose.

If I could say one thing it would be to: Stop, Listen and then Act or react. It is a skill you have to teach yourself once you give up on the idea that everything that happens, the way your child turned out is your fault. If your adult child still has problems the best way to avoid making them your problems is to use the stop/ listen/ act-react. When you do this with people who are manipulating you, if you listen to where they are leading you you can then act, say, by leading the conversation in another directing or by pretending you didn't hear what they wanted you to hear. It's a very tough game and exhausting which is why I can't do it anymore. But id you stop and listen to what that other person is really saying to you, what is it they want from you, or what are they implying, well you are in a better place to act on the right choices for you and for the rest of your family. This techniques works with anybody by the way. Another thing I like to say is to let the other person talk their head off to you - when you truly listen you will be shocked at how much people will reveal about their true nature or character. Then you can act or react to whether you want to be complicit in what they want from you.
It is a tool, but from what I have seen most of the people here, on this board are capable of putting it in their tool-bag.

(I do think an abusive parent makes a choice, because the nature of the abuse changes as the children get too big to terrorize. So my mom is no way off the hook here, genetics or not.)

Agreed, people who abuse others are ultimately responsible for the harm they cause. Don't you see that it applies to the abuse our children heap on us as well? Abuse is abuse no matter who perpetrates it and no one should be let off the hook for it unless there is an ABSOLUTE and completely coming of understanding the harm that caused and you and they show, through future actions that they are truly remorseful. They get no second chance unless there is a huge turn around, hopefully facilitated by competent mental health treatment. For my daughter, the first time I went NC I told her we could not talk again unless it was in a therapist office. Somehow she slipped through the door when I was severely and utterly sick, really too weak to realize what was going on. After 1 year of contact I realize that it was a mistake because there is no remorse on her side.