Some Thoughts Gained from Insights Wk 3 update

[Hound dog]

Hmmmm. Where to start.........

Three weeks I've watched the behavior ect of katie, her husband, and the family as a whole unit. And believe me, I've been watching big time.

Katie is working her tail off, worrying herself to death. She's the one who holds it all together, she does 99 percent of everything an adult would do as a wife, mother, parent. Her husband (M) is as much a child as the other 3 kids. I don't say this to cut him down or to be mean. It's just a simple fact. Think developmentally delayed........and I'd place him on a good day at about 16, on a bad day about 10 yrs. Seriously. On top of this I suspect (and for those who prefer politically correct terms sorry but I've got to be blunt) that he is mentally retarded, as in seriously low IQ. He may or may not have dyslexia. But even people with severe dyslexia usually can find ways to cope with reading and learning to read ect. Nichole has a severe form of dyslexia......she's never had any extra help with it, but she developed her own coping mechanisms out of necessity. She struggles much more than the average person, but she can function quite well. And I don't base what I think his IQ is at simply due to the fact that he is illiterate. I happen to know many people who are illiterate (common around here) who are also very smart people. One doesn't necessarily have to do with the other. I'm also suspecting he "might" be on the autistic spectrum......if he is he is at least Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD). But the whole being really really slow in intelligence makes that a bit harder to judge.

Katie does not have a husband. She has another child, and I mean that literally, in an adults body.

I don't say these things about M to be mean. Oh, he can be a jerk......but that is usually because he's acting about 10 yrs old and picking fights with the kids or instigating them between the kids or some such that makes me want to strangle him. He is more their big brother than anywhere near a father figure. And what is worse, the kids treat him as such.

I feel for katie.

This is her husband :

1. 44 yr old man who dresses like he's a gangsta teen. Yes he looks ridiculous, but has not one clue that he looks ridiculous, even if you comment about it.

2. He is obsessed with computers to the nth degree. It is all he talks about except for rare occasions when he brags what a tough guy he is or that he "trained" under a 5 star chef (yeah right, sure he did lol) He does not stop talking about computers, how he loves them, how smart he is with them (seriously he isn't, I know more than he does and I don't know that much) how much he wants one right now, how he is going crazy without a computer, and omg he all but drools over mine that is password protected and he is not allowed anywhere near. He's even taken up asking for one for xmas and his birthday (dec 2). Uh, no. Sorry about your luck bud. I don't get MY grown kids presents for their birthday when I'm worried about keeping a roof over my head and the bills paid......I can't think of even once I bought easy child's husband a birthday present, because duh.....he's not my kid. I don't even get xmas presents for adults if the budget is too tight. lol

3. M has no concept of money. He knows what it is, what it does. He has no concept of how much it is, how long a certain amount can last.......Ok think the 6 yr old who thinks you get money because the bank gives it to you. Budgeting is waaaaaaaaaaaay beyond his ability. It would be like asking Aubrey to budget. Not kidding. I'd say Darrin, but Darrin budgets his money wisely. lol

4. He does not get social cues. They sail right over his head. You can look him in the eye. You can out right say something to him and it zips right past him. He does not get it.

5. Of course the whole child thing, which is huge as it affects the entire family. Katie attempts to parent with him behaving like a 10yr old and undermining everything that comes out of her mouth or deliberately instigates to make the kids behave worse.....just like a sibling might do. (especially a difficult child sib)

6. He has not one clue about responsibility. Not one. When I made them return to the motel he could not grasp that husband and I simply can't afford to have them here. All he sees is the big house, the nice furniture ect. It doesn't dawn on him that along with that comes a house payment, bills, and the like. Katie tried to explain it. I tried to explain it. Nope. Zip........bang.

7. He soooooo totally did not grasp what we were trying to explain to him about doing volunteer work to have something to do, to meet people for both references and potential job leads. After 45 mins on the subject both katie and I gave up. Right after that he said he wants to put in apps at all the places I've been trying to get him to go to. So, looks as if he saw it as I thought he wasn't trying hard enough........when that wasn't what either of us were saying. (even though he isn't lol)

That is M in a nut shell. I have to limit it to that as I could write a book.

So........................ How do you discuss with your daughter that if she has any hopes of a future at all for herself and her kids that she has to dump her husband who would probably fit in nicely (and qualify for) the halfway house for MRDD across the alley from us??

Her husband is not a horrid person. He is a severe difficult child with multiple issues of which make him incompetent as both a spouse and a parent. The "man" drives me nuts consistently..........but it is the same way Travis drove me nuts at 12 yrs old.......only on many levels worse. It is so bad that if something ever happened to Katie, we as a family would have to go to court to prevent him from having custody, as it would endanger the kids. Yeah. That bad. And I've watched him for 3 wks very closely just to be sure. I wouldn't be surprised in the least if his IQ were many points below Alex's. Sad, but true. (and alex's is pretty low)

Ok. Now to be fair.........

Katie:

1. Parenting skills are right up there with easy child's and Nicholes. Does have some issues treating both Alex and Evan as if they are much younger than their ages and with consistancy (some of that is due to her husband) but over all is making me proud. She's come a very long way in this area.

2. Is responsible. Knows what needs to be done and works hard to get it done, from getting all the info for welfare, jobs, the school ect to paying the rent at the motel.....attempting to manage the money her mom gave her and the food stamps (you should hear the fights over this whew)

3. Is not only parenting 3 kids alone, but also parenting her husband who due to being an "adult" refuses to listen to anything she says, simply ignores her when she tells him to stop ect. (some of this applies as the social cues thing too)

4. Her migraines are due to being stressed beyond the max, worrying herself to death over having a roof over their heads, feeding the kids, being a good parent, clothing the kids, dealing with the school..........and all the rest that goes with being the head of a single parent household. She will feel fine. Then you put her with her husband and the kids and 15 mins later she's got a migraine. Yeah......well sometimes they give me one heck of a headache and I'm not around them 24/7.

This is awful. But if katie wants to turn her life around and offer her kids a brighter future.......the only way I can see that she has any hope of doing that is by getting rid of her husband. I know that once he was gone, and he accepted he was gone for good (cuz he's the type that is going to bug the hades out of her for months at least) her migraines are going to decrease dramatically. The children's behavior is going to improve drastically due to consistency of real parenting. Their lives will stabilize, which will be a new thing for the kids.

If she does not get rid of him..........she will continue the futile effort of spinning her wheels. Homelessness will always be knocking at her door no matter how hard she works or tries to keep it at bay. Kayla is now old enough that she has noticed her dad is not like other dads. He frustrates her beyond belief, embarrasses her. As she grows older that is going to get worse, a resentment will build up toward not only her dad, but katie as well, especially due to the conditions she's been growing up in. I see her in her teen years trying to find a way to escape the situation which puts her at high risk of latching on to someone worse than even her dad by getting pregnant at a very young age in a desperate search for some sort of security and stability.....something she has never known. Alex and Evan may never get it about their dad.. (do to their own gfgness).....but their own potential is going to be stunted because M is a major player in treated the boys as much younger than they are while treating and depending on Kayla as if she is an adult.

So? How do you tell your kid she married a person who doesn't have the capacity to be considered an "adult" in any sense of the word other than age? This needs to be discussed, and fairly soon, if she hopes to build a life here. But I'm not quite sure how to go about it without her taking offense that I have it in for the guy or her going to his defense.

I know that she was very close to leaving her husband behind in Mo and only changed her mind at the last minute when he begged her to let him "prove" himself to her. I don't have a clue how sincere he was, but in all blunt honesty........even if he put out 100 percent effort, he doesn't have the mental capacity to function as an adult. That part is not his fault. That is the hitch. He can't help that he is both develpmentally a child and mentally slow. But it also isn't right to put their children at risk because he is a difficult child either. I think, I may be wrong but if I'm reading body language right (which I'm good at), Katie sees he does not act like an adult. But the key is, does she realize that he can not / is not nor never will be capable of being an adult? That is the losing battle she has been fighting all these years.

I think Katie is torn between: He is a person I care about, he is the father of my kids, he's not horrid. Yet I am not married to a "man", an adult. Instead I face each day mothering the person who is supposed to be my partner but who is instead is as dependent on me as our children. Due to this we've never known security or stability which has driven me to the brink.

It can be rough in that position. It's one I've faced many many times with husband being autistic. Many things about himself he simply can't help, it's part of who he is as a person. It took me many years to understand that you can love a person, but not be able to live with that person as your partner. And I've been fortunate that when I draw the line in the sand, husband is able to "get it" and change the behaviors enough that I can tolerate it. But I still have to ask myself daily, Is it worth it to keep trying? The day it isn't husband will find his bags packed. Because I've finally realized that although I may love him, my needing to have a real partner, having security ect is just as important.

I just don't know if katie has come that far yet. So we'll keep kidnapping her and getting to know her better and when I feel the time is right we'll have a heart to heart.

Oh.......and by the way.........I know it's not Katie spending the money from her Mom. While we were at the outlet mall I put her to the test. Now the katie I've always known and loved is a shopper at heart. One of the stores had 60.00 jeans (nice ones and she needs them really bad) on sale for 10 bucks in her size. I pointed them out to her. She even carried them around for a while. Then put them back. Now honestly, I wouldn't have faulted her for spending 10 bucks on a pair of jeans when she needs them so badly. But she passed the test with flying colors. The Katie from 10 yrs ago would've snatched them up like yesterday's news and grabbed several more that weren't nearly as cheap. Then tonight M when with husband to the store for something to drink. He came home with a case of pop that cost 6 bucks at least (store they went to is close but expensive). Now this was paid for with foodstamps and still katie went ballistic on him and told him he's not allowed to go to the store anymore she's had it.

Well, that's one worry off my mind anyway. If she was also into spending money like water they'd really be in trouble.

 

[DammitJanet]

I dont know. this one is going to be very tough. Would he join the french foreign legion?

 

[Hound dog]

LMAO

Probably not.

 

[HaoZi]

She may not be seeing it as her acting like a single parent already, and the prospect of that may well frighten her. She needs to meet some good examples of husbands and fathers in her own age range (and it might not hurt if some of those fathers are good single fathers). She also may need to meet some single moms her age that know how tough it is but have managed it on their own nonetheless.

 

[toughlovin]

From your previous posts I have been wondering if Katie, herself is realizing that M is not what she wants or who she wants to be with. She may feel pretty stuck, given the kids and lack of money etc. She may also be pretty scared at the prospect of being a single parent and doing it all alone, even though in essense that is what she has been doing. But from what you have said I have to wonder if she is already questioning the viability of her relationship with M.

So these are my thoughts. You want to be as supportive and loving to her as possible without of course enabling a bad situation or taking it all on yourself. You can't do that.. I think you want to try and encourage her own questioning and thinking about her future with M. I think sitting down for a heart to heart may be a mistake because if she sees you as trying to tell her what to do, to leave him, it may make her feel unsupported and feel more stuck and defensive.

instead I would definitely let her know the ways you are proud of her and then inject questions but one at a time here and there, not all at once. So something like, "wow I am really proud of the mother you have become....it must be really hard when your partner does not really co parent with you."..... Of "how do you manage to do all that you do with the stresses you are under. Doeos M help out at all? Try and bring up the questions but don't give judgements and don't tell her what to do.

I hope this helps...

 

[CrazyinVA]

First of all, I think you're right in that Katie's best chance at success is *without* her husband. He does seem to be an obstacle to them getting out of where they are. That being said, separating from your husband and the father of your children is difficult under the best of circumstances. Add in the fact they are homeless and broke, she is already overstressed and feeling physically and emotionally drained, I really think that kicking her husband out may just be too much right now. Sometimes, it's a matter of "the devil you know" being better than the "devil you don't know," as the saying goes. From your perspective, it may seem like the most logical thing to do, kick husband to the curb and move on with her life. But that's the thing.. it's*your* perspective. I'd bet Katie is well aware of all her husband's issues. I'd bet she's thought time and time again that she *needs* to kick him to the curb, I'd bet she wants to more than anything. But that's a huge change, and she simply may not be able to to do it yet, especially she she has so much else on her plate.

I agree with toughlovin. I think the key is to be supportive. I think it's ok to wait for an opening and express your concerns to her about her situation, but if you approach it as, "you need to do this or you will never get ahead," she is likely to shut down.

I want to add that this is coming from my own experience with Youngest. She is in what seems to be an impossible situation right now (one day I'll write an update about it). It's a situation I personally cannot imagine staying in, just as you can't imagine yourself staying with a husband like Katie has. But, here's the thing... it's the choice she's made. I can't make Youngest change her mind. The times I've gotten angry enough to speak harshly about her fiance, she's defended him... and gotten more angry at me. One time, when I more delicately tried to point out how it could be better if she'd come back to VA and start over, that he lied to her to get her down there (told her he had a job offer, but he didn't) and her life has just gotten worse, not better, she said to me, "I know mom. Believe me, I think about that every single day." That's when it hit me (along with my therapist "hitting" me with it). She knows how bad things are. She's not in denial. But this is life experience, not mine. I can't take it so personally, even as her mom. She has to be ready to change it, to believe she can do it on her own (again) without her fiance. I can listen, and offer advice when asked, and encourage her all I can, but I can't make her change her mind or convince her to leave her fiance, nor is it really my place, I finally realized. Good old serenity prayer in action again.

It hoovers. I worry about my grandchidlren, just as you do. It's a helpless feeling. It sounds like Katie's come such a long way, however... and I think that is fantastic. Keep letting her know how great you think she is. It just may be that she has a ways to go to get to the point where she's finally fed up with her husband.

 

[busywend]

I think the thing I would be most worried about after leaving her husband would be visitation! First off, where would that be and how much supervision would he provide? He probably could not even manage to feed them.

I think that is scarier than parenting him myself....if I were her.

 

[DammitJanet]

One thing to actually think about for her is that services would be better for her as a single person than with him in the house. Two parent families dont qualify for as many things as single parent families. Just something to toss into the mix.

 

[1905]

Ask her where she wants to be in a year, or 2, or 5. Then ask her how she plans on getting there. Write it out together, she'll see that her husband isn't helping her get there. I believe she is gathering a lot of strength from you right now. She ses how much confidence you have in her, things she may not even see in herself. She sees what a "normal" lifestyle is, just by being around you. She's got to want that more than having her husband around.

 

[Hound dog]

Yeah. I know I can't make this decision for her, she has to make it for herself. Hoovers, but this is her life and she has to live it; the good, the bad, and the ugly.

And I also know that what I can clearly see from outside the relationship may not be quite as clear to her since she is the one stuck right in the middle of it. Especially when I have a ton of life experience over her plus the additional experiences of being married to her dad for 30 yrs. At her age I was just truly getting that husband was my obstacle.

I don't plan to sit her down and say her husband is such and such and she needs to toss him to the curb. I've raised 2 other girls to adults and know full well that is the last thing I want to do. ugh But it doesn't stop you from wanting to wave a flag in front of their face. lol

Yeah, visitation with dad once they did separate would be iffy......but he could probably manage for a weekend......but raising them simply would not work. Although I could imagine how they'd come back from those visits. whew! So yeah, that might be a worry on her mind as well.

Janet what you say is true and it is something I plan to point out to her. Single her husband is forced in this state to pay child support regardless of employment status or he goes to jail, min of 50 bucks a wk per kid. Is what happened last time and believe me he found work fast. lol I keep thinking gee, it's 150 more per wk than they have now........ (awful but I can't help it) Not to mention all the programs that would open up for her as a single parent vs them being a married couple.

Our biggest hurdle is that Katie has never had much self confidence and self esteem, even as a young child. What I've been trying to point out to her since she's been here is that she is the one who has been carrying the full load under horrible circumstances and to have managed to keep them off the streets as long as she did shows how smart, capable, and strong she truly is.

I really do thank all of you for the responses. They help way more than you know. I feel like I'm walking a tight wire some days. ugh And since I'm sitting right in the middle of all this it can alter my own perspectives somewhat. Doesn't help that I know the cash from biomom is running out and we've got to find a place for them to go before it does. And seriously......while I doubt finances or not, if push comes to shove, I can let katie and the grandkids be on the street (it snowed here this morning) ........I think I'd lose my mind if her husband were here 24/7 again. So I sort of feel this urgent need to get her husband out of the picture asap in order to increase her chances for moving forward. Know what I mean?? I find I have to fight against that urge a lot right now.

The heart to heart will be more about what Katie wants.....her goals ect how she plans to reach them, how her husband may or may not play into those goals ect, not a this is what you gotta do or else thing. Because that would just backfire anyway and it's not my place to do that........not my life.

Most frustrating part, and this is probably going to sound maybe a bit strange..........Her husband is the major cause of her migraines which all but cripple her, which makes it extremely hard for her to look for work or do other things that need to be done. Which is slowly forward progress to a snails pace simply because every day almost she's writhing in bed from yet another migraine. Until he is out of the picture 24/7 I don't see the migraines improving..........which hoovers. That all by itself is a vicious cycle that seems never ending.

 

[DaisyFace]

Lisa--

I don't have a lot of experience in this area....so maybe this is not an option -

but I wonder with all of his "issues" whether her husband qualifies for some kind of services or program that would help support him in his effort to get job training, get his GED, learn to read, learn to budget and other such life skills?

And I wonder if you could offer to help Katie talk him into taking advantage of such a program?

She obviously loves him....and even "needs" him on some level. Maybe rather than splitting up - getting him some help could be a first small step right now.

Just my thoughts...

 

[donna723]

If he won't join the French Foreign Legion, there's always the witness protection program?

 

[Hound dog]

LMAO Donna.

Daisy we do have such a program here. Unfortunately due to sky high unemployment rates, shelter residents are getting first dibs at the program. katie and family are still trying to get into a shelter.

 

[KTMom91]

I kind of like the idea of the French Foreign Legion. I don't think they have an age limit...

 

[susiestar]

I don't think he would qualify for the witness protection program Probably the witless protection program though.

I really hope that at some point in the very near future Katie can see that not only can her husband not be a parent or partner, he is actually doing damage to her children. The patterns they have as a family, where the father is more childish than the children, is NOT going to prepare those kids for life, love or any kind of success/happiness. It will likely feel mean or heartless or cruel or whatever to throw him "out", but if she is to give her children a decent life she is going to have to use her rhino skin and warrior mom shields and do it anyway. It really isn't about meeting her personal goals, or even wanting any specific material thing like a house or car or whatever. It is about doing what her kids NEED to have in this life, about putting the children's needs about her husband's needs and demands. Maybe if you explain things as her needing to be the mother of her children as top priority and the rescuer of her husband as her dead last priority.

Because her husband may not be smart enough to handle raising kids on his own, but I bet he can find enough smarts to find work if he has no food and no place to sleep and no one to take care of him.

I see the hardest thing for katie being where her husband will go if/when she kicks him out. I bet she would drop him like a hot potato in a 3 Stooges film if she was pretty sure he would have somewhere to go.

 

[susiestar]

Don't you wish you could drive him out into the country somewhere out past nowhere, push him out of the car and drive away fast as you can, just like so many people dump pets? I bet he wouldn't remember your address and might not ever figure out how to wander back home.



(I know, it is totally horrible to dump a pet. But this guy?)

Off to my corner now. Just couldn't help myself. I know, it is mean. And you would never do that. Neither would I. But the fantasy is rather interesting and even a teensy bit tempting?

 

[donna723]

You know, something else for Katie to think about ... a few short years down the road, if it keeps on as it is, those kids are going to end up being responsible for their daddy! Life has already been so unfair to them and they're already at such a disadvantage, they don't deserve that at all.

 

[susiestar]

Donna is very right. Katie is under a HUGE amount of stress and if my memory is correct she has some health issues already. If she doesn't have health issues from before she met this guy/had kids/etc... she sure is on the road to some serious ones. For one thing the way her migraines behave makes me think they are likely related to very high blood pressure. Even if it is not high for everyone it may be high for what her body can handle. For about a decade I could tell you if my blood pressure went over 108/60 on the top number because I would have a raging migraine each time.

Has katie thought about what would happen to the kids if she were in the hospital or worse happened? I bet that her husband would try to run so the kids wouldn't be taken away, but he would have no real clue how to raise them so it would fall to Kayla. I am sure that your family would step in to help raise the kids IF her husband was out of the picture (and it was at all possible), but with him in the picture they will be largely on their own. NOT because you would refuse to help unless he left them, but because he would make it totally impossible for you to help in the ways that would really need to be handled.

While this isn't fun to think about, it is something that you and easy child and nichole need to discuss, and then talk about iwth katie when the time is right for it. It is so hard to hear about her struggles when we know her husband is making them all so much worse and so much more difficult to solve.

It is going to take thinking about ALL of this for her to allow herself to make the big changes. She probably knows she is going to have a struggle to get rid of him because he knows she is his meal ticket, even if those meals are very limited. He sure seems like the type to stay on the porch crying and hollering all night or for days at a time.

Is there any sign of him getting violent with her or the kids? Esp if he is thwarted when he wants to buy something? There was also the photo of Kayla that had you very worried. Are there any signs of that type of abuse? A guy with such low intelligence could easily be talked into almost anything, esp if the other person treated him like he is the tough guy he wants to think he is. So it would not be hard for a predator to befriend him and then come and hurt the kids while katie is working or out doing something.

You are doing a great job as a loving Nana to the kids, and an awesome mom to katie. I am glad it looks like she has really matured and is a great mom. I hope she can find the strength and willpower to make the break with her husband. Are they legally married or just common law married? It makes a difference in some states.

 

[Hound dog]

They are legally married, she has the paperwork. (sorry can't think of the word at the moment)

Yes, driving him out to the country and dropping him off is very tempting.........I've had the same thought over the past weeks..........and that's bad since I'd never think to do that to a pet. lol

M has a past history of being physically abusive to katie and her biomom........and due to one particular phone call while talking to kayla........I suspect the kids as well. Is he now? I have nothing short of the threats to "whip off his belt" that one night katie was at the ER to indicate anything. I was just daring him to, the cops would've been here in order to get me off him as much as to arrest him. lol

The only thing I can say per domestic violence..............Katie has that victim stance and look about her.......and it's really hard to describe with words but anyone who has ever been a victim of abuse recognizes it in another person immediately. It's like they're trying to fade into the background trying hard not to be noticed sort of thing........body language, facial expression. I know that M has all of Katie's friends in Mo believing his tough guy routine.......or did back when.

This is going to sound strange maybe, I dunno, but I'm hoping when their money runs out there is enough room in the d/v shelter that katie can take the kids there and "fib" to get in. (my gut tells me it won't be a fib, but I have no proof) Because when they come to me and say they have no where else to go, that's the first place I'm going to have her try. Bit of deviousness on my part because I think she could greatly benefit from the group therapy meetings on a abuse they are required to attend. She was working their program the last time she was here.........and dropped out after Alex was born.

And yeah Susie those are things I've been thinking and worrying about. Dumping him isn't going to be easy just because of the meal ticket thing.......but because she does just about everything for him due to the illiteracy............. And I get frustrated because already Kayla sees no reason to learn to read / spell because in her child's eyes Daddy can't and he's a grown up. Frustrating. We've already (the entire family) begun coaching her on how important doing well in school is, going to college, working hard for what you want in life.........because she has no clue (not kidding) of how it's done.

Since I haven't been asked if they can stay here I'm assuming they've paid yet another week's rent. That's 3 wks. Not bad. Katie must have gotten back into control of at least most of the cash.

I do have to be careful how I approach M's parenting though. Katie's main defense of the guy is that he's a great Dad to the kids and that he loves them so much. ugh Actually, it's the only defense she's made in his favor. I don't doubt he loves them, that isn't the issue. But there is no parenting going on unless it is to back katie up occasionally.

I haven't seen her since thurs. Which means nothing has been done since then either. At the rate of these migraines...........they're never going to find work because she can never get out to apply. And while I do very much understand the pain levels involved..........sometimes you've just got to svck it up already and do what you gotta do. I mean geez, I took care of 2 babies post op with a metal stint in my ureter and pain levels through the roof even with morphine when I was supposed to be on bedrest in the hospital because the wrong movement could cause it to puncture the ureter it was helping to heal. Sometimes life doesn't give you the option to take it easy when you're sick. Because at this rate, they're never going to find work or anything else.

 

[hearts and roses]

As you already know, it is ultimately up to Katie to make any moves about her life and the life of her children, with or without her creepy H. I hope and pray that she grows enough emotionally to do what's in her best interest. It's a very VERY difficult thing to leave a person for oneself and not because of abuse, addictions, etc. It seems selfish to want a better life for yourself and your children by getting rid of your partner, but it's not selfish - it is self preservation!

As the grandma watching it all go down, well, big hugs to you Lisa! I agree with who ever said K needs some healthy role models in the form of true husbands and partners as well as some strong single moms. The amount of programs she would eligible for as a single mom, especially a single mom with two special needs children are many! Her H is like an anvil, slowing her down. I hope she sees that clearer and clearer with each passing day.