Staying detached while tethered....

[rebelson]

J doesn't like NA because he doesn't want to listen to all the "losers" beat a dead horse about their "sorry lives".

To me, this sounds like he thinks he is not an addict himself. So, denial.

 

[BusynMember]

Just one sentence: paying rent for an adult doesn't make them change for the better.

I watched parents pay rent/buy homes/give abusive adult kids rent free beds to sleep in...for the nearly fifteen years I've been here. Jail has helped more of our kids get their lives together than paying their bills. Give them anything you feel like, and don't feel guilty about it if it makes YOU feel better. But realize who you are doing it for...yourself. it soothes hearts that can't stand to know their child homeless. We all get that. And we have a right to be good to us. If we sleep sounder if our kids are not on the streets, I think it'd fine to do it for us. But the help we give is for us.

With Bart, we made sure he stayed in motels until his father bought a condo so he could live with him. He could no longer live with me for many reasons, but, unlike later on when another kid had drug problems, I was not ready to put my kid on the street. So I didn't. I bought him food too. When he got to move in with his dad he was no better than when he'd lived with me though. Not one bit. He got better as soon as he married and moved out. Not until. He got a good job. Good deal too as his money train had stopped. Ex and I were done.

Giving doesn't make our child get a job, be nice, go to college, or stop smoking pot or using scarier drugs. But it helps us before we are ready for true tough love.

 

[Roxona]

To me, this sounds like he thinks he is not an addict himself. So, denial.

He's made it clear he knows he is an addict, and that he will always be an addict. They way he described NA is he felt like they were just wallowing in their despair and not doing a lot to move forward to work on their problems. I can kind of see that. Plus, it was a constant reminder of his addiction and how terrible he feels about getting caught up in the whole mess. Sometimes it would even make him feel like using again and his cravings would increase. In addition, he felt like he was a failure because he has every intention on not using meth again, but he doesn't necessarily feel like he would completely stop alcohol or pot throughout his entire life. He's not much into alcohol, but pot helps with his anxiety and adhd. He says it makes him feel normal. Because legalization is coming to many states, he feels like it's okay to use.

 

[toughlovin]

Somewhere is absolutely right. The giving has to be because it feels right to US, and helps us sleep better. I help my son, when he is helping himself, because that feels right to me.... And I really do not want him on the streets again.... BUT if he is using or blowing me off, or not doing the things to help himself then I am willing to let it go and let him be on the streets.

Giving to them doesn't guarantee they will do any of the right things.

But having them on the streets doesn't guarantee they will get it either. My son figured out how to survive on the streets by panhandling and doing whatever things I don't think I want to know. I am not sure being on the streets helped him except that he does know he doesn't want to be on the streets again.

There are no easy answers or answers that work for every kid. So in the end you have to do what feels like the right thing to you, and what will help you sleep better at night. We have all had sleepless nights worrying about our kids and in my view anything that helps us sleep better is good.

 

[Copabanana]

I am not sure being on the streets helped him except that he does know he doesn't want to be on the streets again.

This is something, TL. To know what you do not want and that you will do what it takes to not go there.

The problem with us is that though my son has changed a great deal in some things (not violent, angry, more cooperative to our face, and loving) he does not feel committed to change what he does not want to change, and is committed to do the minimum to keep us engaged. This buys us constant stress. When somebody wants to stay engaged on their terms but wanting to sabotage as much as they can, while remaining tethered?

I wonder if with that attitude it can work at all.

I think it'd fine to do it for us. But the help we give is for us.

I do not know if I agree with SWOT. That giving them support is for us only. Perhaps I agree if she means a place to stay only. Without conditions. But with conditions?

That would be like saying that supportive services given to young adults with mental illness or cognitive deficits, is for us, not for them. If what we provide to our kids is given with monitoring, training, coaching, support, feedback and accountability--they can eventually buy in, little by little. After all, that is the principle behind group homes, and community-based services for mentally ill.

The question is what we are willing to commit and the cost to us, emotionally.

Those of us posting now about this topic have children of different ages with different abilities and potentials. One size does not fit all.

There are so many ways to respond. When first my son left, I did foist him out without support. I do not know if I would do it again. Perhaps I would. He was completely non-amenable to working with us. Keeping my son close, without conditions, I feel unable to do as well.

I guess we are working this through little by little. Are we?

 

[rebelson]

He's made it clear he knows he is an addict, and that he will always be an addict. They way he described NA is he felt like they were just wallowing in their despair and not doing a lot to move forward to work on their problems. I can kind of see that. Plus, it was a constant reminder of his addiction and how terrible he feels about getting caught up in the whole mess. Sometimes it would even make him feel like using again and his cravings would increase. In addition, he felt like he was a failure because he has every intention on not using meth again, but he doesn't necessarily feel like he would completely stop alcohol or pot throughout his entire life. He's not much into alcohol, but pot helps with his anxiety and adhd. He says it makes him feel normal. Because legalization is coming to many states, he feels like it's okay to use.

Got it.
Many do, though, look down on AA/NA.

 

[rebelson]

Since my son got kicked out of Grammys in August, I have seen much struggle, but also much movement in him. While some of it has been bad, some has also been good.

He has been drinking a lot. He was asking me for food $, then buying alcohol with it. He had a job where he was bringing in plenty enough money to pay his own rent, yet every time his rent was due he would tell me he didn't have all of it. Of course not, he was spending it on alcohol. Why would I help with that? I would not.

I have seen a slight increase in maturity. I have also heard him expressing, making actual attempts to stay clean more times in the past eight months than ever before. By this I mean going to AA and getting a white chip. These 'stops and starts' are a newer thing since August. I totally associate this slight progress on the fact that he has been on his own. And not being funded by us.

March 25th, he entered detox and is now in residential treatment and doing very well according to support staff and his psychologist.

Would he have done this if he was comfy in Grammy's house? I doubt it.

I am here in south Florida now for family session with-him this week. Yesterday I read the packet they emailed me on enabling.

It is a selfish act. I know this. We know this. I think I have been enabling him for ME. So that I can sleep at night. Not worry so much - I have anxiety & Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD). Too bad, I will have to deal with it.

While I did not pay his rent, I have been enabling him in other ways.

We all detach as well as we can, at the moment. It's a process, I think.

I might fall back and help him again. I cannot say 100% that I won't. I think we have to take this thing day by day....baby steps. It is also easy to set ourselves up for failure. Baby steps.

Hugs to all of us.

 

[toughlovin]

I think it is a process and a balancing act. I know there are ways I enable my son and at times help him too much. Other times though I think it is an act of love and letting him know I love him is a good thing. Sometimes I think the only thing that has kept him from becoming a hardened criminal is the love of his mother!

And I also get that sometimes we have to let ourselves have sleepless nights because enabling him is clearly the wrong thing to do. I had many sleepless nights when my son was on the streets.... But at the time he was doing nothing to help himself and I was not about to get him an apartment or pay for a hotel or anything like that. I did get him a sleeping bag. I also was not going to let him live at home.

So to me it is a balancing act between figuring out what is best for them and what is best for me. I think letting my kid be on the streets was the best thing I could do at the time.... Eventually he wanted to come in from the cold and was willing to go to treatment. This time around making it clear I would not pay for his sober living if he didn't continue with IOP got him to go back to IOP and figure out a plan.... I don't know for sure if he stayed sober the whole time but he didn't have a fall apart, get kicked out of sober living etc etc relapse.... So he is making progress.

I will also say that although he has relapsed several times, with our unwitting help, those relapses have gotten him to realize he has a serious problem. So he is way ahead of where he was in the past. At least now he admits he has an addiction problem and really can not just drink moderately. That is huge.

 

[Copabanana]

Sometimes I think the only thing that has kept him from becoming a hardened criminal is the love of his mother!

TL. I like how you think.

Some parents seem to get frozen in a fairly harsh and rigid, even blaming posture. I can understand it, because there has been a history of real abuse by their children. But the problem is, it seems to me that the parent suffers as much as the child, sometimes unaware of how much. I was there too. I felt I had to be. Did I really? I am not sure.

Being open is the hardest thing, because the hurt comes in, and because our kids (mine) perceives open as weak, and open to manipulation by him.

I am in bed today. I feel sick at heart. My son was supposed to come here and give me the keys to the house. It was a plan he came up with in order to have one more night at the house where we have been letting him stay. He is a no show.

 

[RN0441]

Copa - I am so sorry you are sad. It's all SO SO hard and unfair for us moms! I know you were so happy when he was working on the place with M. It was going in a positive direction. Why can't something start positive and end positive? Why does it always have to go South?

TL - my husband always says that I saved our son's life but he isn't ripe yet so too soon to tell if that is true!

I think in some ways I think they do what they do no matter what WE do! Yet we stress over it all so.

I have often wondered what my Difficult Child would do if... say his father and I died in a plan crash! I know his older brothers would not take him in because he has stolen from them when high. I lost both my parents by the age of 17 and I stepped up to the plate and fended for myself. I am hoping he would survive. Maybe he would grow up and actually do the right thing. Who knows.

 

[Roxona]

I have often wondered what my Difficult Child would do if... say his father and I died in a plan crash!

I asked J this once, and he said, "I don't know. Just something different, I guess."

COPA, sorry things did not work out as you had hoped with your son. I don't blame you for staying in bed. (((HUGS)))

 

[rebelson]

Some parents seem to get frozen in a fairly harsh and rigid, even blaming posture. I can understand it, because there has been a history of real abuse by their children.

Are you referring to me here, Copa? I doubt it because you know from my posts how my son has treated me. And also I have posted plenty and recently on here how I do not stand up to him. But need to start. I react like mush to his meanness & that's not good.

I have been SO soft, patient and loving to my son, that he feels free to take out ALL of his frustrations on me. He knows my love has been constant & is unconditional.

I come on here to help myself have strength & to get better at not enabling him. I might sound tough & firm, but inside I feel weak. Talking, venting, hashing out my feelings on this CD helps me.

I also love my son so much. Trying to be strong for my addict, by not enabling does not at all mean that I love mine less than you all love yours.

I feel like this topic is turning into a messy power struggle.

Family session parent group was fairly exhausting today. Tomorrow & Friday will also be 8hr group days, with our addicts.

I am tired. I feel deflated right now.

Have a great night everybody.

 

[Copabanana]

Are you referring to me here, Copa?

NOOOOO. Of course I am not!!!

I might sound tough & firm

No you do not. You never do. I cannot remember one time I thought you sounded too tough. If anything, I wish you would not let him hurt you.

Trying to be strong for my addict, by not enabling does not at all mean that I love mine less than you all love yours.

Of course not.

I question MYSELF. I feel defensive about every little thing because it costs me so to turn my son away. I hate doing it.

I also question myself because I feel some parents think I do too much, and some think I do too little. Even though I know what the right thing is...there is nothing right about having to turn away your own child and there is nothing right about being your child's victim.

I feel like this topic is turning into a messy power struggle.

I think I agree with you.

Did you read my new thread? All of my soul searching is there.

I am sorry, rebelson. The last person I was thinking about was you. I have never read one word of mean or judgmental or critical. I do not think that parents here mean to come across that way. I am the one who can sometimes get too direct. I do not want to cause pain.

 

[toughlovin]

I think we are all trying to figure out the best way to help, to support, and not enable our kids.....and it is not easy and not clear cut. I know there is no judgement from me on anyone here choices. But like Copa I have at time found from people in real life thinking I am either not tough enough or can't understand how I could let my son be homeless....and others who just can't imagine how I get through what I do.

Rebelson..I hope you get some rest and look forward to hearing more about how it went.

 

[rebelson]

I'm nervous as hell not knowing what will be my sons demeanor tmrw & Friday. Today, was for parents only so I have not seen my son yet.

It was fairly intense today. The very on point therapist/program leader had us digging a bit, & it was all in a group setting. Different for me.

When it was my turn to discuss, I brought up how my son is verbally abusive to me at times. And I expressed concern in that I (bizarrely) do not feel angry, or react angrily at the mean, nasty things he says to me. Sadly, I think her answer was point on. She said to me that "You do not feel anger at the things that he says to you because you subconsciously think those things are true about you." [emoji44]

This reasoning has never, ever has come to my mind.

I think she is correct.

My mother was not very attentive to me. I was the last of 5. Long story short, Dad and she were divorced when I was 5. I was always shushed & I felt like I was extra baggage to her. Her men were more important.

Consciously I slough the things he says off and say "meh, he's wrong so it doesn't bother me." But perhaps subconsciously I believe those things that he says about me. It's so deep, really.

Now tomorrow we are supposed to discuss these things with our addicts. I asked her "should I confide in my son how hurtful it is & that I may actually believe the things he says because of my childhood?"

This is a tricky question you see? My son likes to use things against me, so should I give him this to keep in his back pocket as leverage against me one day? Even the therapist did not have an exact answer to that question for me. She kind of 'left it up to me'.

Talked to my husband tonight and he thinks that I should not admit that to my son at this time. That he is not mature enough, right now, to be able to respect that revelation from me and not use it against me.

So right now I'm going into tomorrow not knowing what the heck I'm going to work on with my son. We are supposed to be working on relational, family issues from our past.

I must go to bed now good night everybody.

 

[DarkwingPsyduck]

I don't mean to be unkind, really. This is a situation that I am familiar with, and I am also in groups that will call out behavior. Sometimes it seems harsh, but sometimes we need our eyes opened.

RN, honestly, I wouldn't call it "binges" I would call it "relapses."

I have seen this attitude a lot with addicts and families of addicts where they feel that they aren't "really" addicts because they use prescription medications, not street drugs, or because they haven't had the legal complications many of our addicts have.

This is a discussion I have with my sister. It's about her kids. I have told her, and my line in the sand is very firm, that she cannot have any contact with the kids unless she is sober, and since I am NA hardass by sober I don't mean not just using, that isn't sobriety, but actively sober as in clean and actively involved in her recovery for at least a year.

I think, and I am sorry, but I think that you need support also. I think al-anon or Nar-anon is a good place to start. I also think that you need to get very tough. I know I have said this before, but I would sell the car. Use it to recoup some of the funds you have laid out. Having that car will cause nothing but problems, believe me. Not to mention, Dog forbid, he use it under the influence and your name is on the title.

I also think that offering to pay for any type of housing other than sober living is a mistake. If he wants to live on his own let him pay for it.

I'm on the fence about school.

Maybe having a firm set of "rules" with a timeline is what you need to do, such as what you absolutely will or won't pay for and what level of sobriety has to be met in order to achieve that. Like I would say, "If you maintain a job and stay clean for a year we will pay for 2 community college classes a semester, but you have to pass them with C or better." or some such thing that works for you.

I think that you also need to be firm about consequences of relapse or leaving the program or not committing to the program.

Playing around with words and terminology is common for us. We do just about anything we can to downplay the enormity of our problems. Like I said, we convince ourselves that we aren't addicts in the same way this other guy is. That our problem is nowhere near that guy's severity. It is all bullshit, done to justify our actions. The bright side is that, when we do this, we acknowledge that what we are doing is unacceptable, even if they don't want to face it. No need to dick around with words if we were actually justified. Your son needs a lesson in humility. I cannot stress the importance of humility. It is crucial. It is about breaking ourselves down, and fully accepting that we have the same exact problems as every other addict. There are no "levels" of addiction. Addiction is addiction is addiction. You don't need to use a needle, or perform fellatio to be considered a junkie. What you took, and how much is no longer relevant. Accepting ourselves without the bullshit is the whole idea. Without it, there is no recovery. Recovery comes when we face our problems head on, and without reservation. True honesty. Which is why the anonymity of 12 step meetings exists. So we can be completely open. To come to terms with the reality of it.

 

[Copabanana]

Sadly, I think her answer was point on. She said to me that "You do not feel anger at the things that he says to you because you subconsciously think those things are true about you."

I think this is true of me, and I know at least one other mother who felt the same way.

My son likes to use things against me,

he thinks that I should not admit that to my son at this time. That he is not mature enough,

I agree with your husband. I believe that your absolute priority right now is to protect yourself.

I know this is supposed to be about your son, and his recovery. I believe his recovery is supported by your having boundaries and not allowing him to define you.

If I said anything at all it might be something like this, a general statement: I have taken responsibility for things SON says to me that are hurtful...as if I am at fault or did something wrong...when I know I did not.

I do not think I would say more. This is about him. Not you.

 

[Sister's Keeper]

I think because the verbally abusive, hurtful things are an issue I would mention them, but I would not mention WHY they hurt you.

 

[RN0441]

I agree Rebelson. I would not give him any ammunition.

Our son doesn't say cruel things and sometimes I wish he did. I think then it would help me build a barrier against him being able to hurt me when he hurts himself. Does that make sense?

Glad the first day went pretty well. Sometimes it feels good to be in a group and hear everyone else's experiences.

Darkwing it's me playing around with the words but not intentionally. He really never labels it but has said in the past he is an addict. When I talk to him next - not sure when that will be - I will let him tell me his feedback on what his counselor told me. I'm sure he'll dismiss everything or play is down. But I have to realize I can't control him nor should I try. I can only control my need to separate myself and my extreme desire to find my own happiness during his struggle.