I think some perceive my post as being, "Aha, look how wonderful my life is", when it's more that I profoundly believe that medical science holds some pretty good, if not necessarily definitive, answers about addiction. Over and above that, the addict having an "out", rather than feeling like they have to choose between drugs or years of interminable meetings, pseudo-religious nonsense and guff.
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I think some perceive my post as being, "Aha, look how wonderful my life is", when it's more that I profoundly believe that medical science holds some pretty good, if not necessarily definitive, answers about addiction. Over and above that, the addict having an "out", rather than feeling like they have to choose between drugs or years of interminable meetings, pseudo-religious nonsense and guff.
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Signorina
Guest
Yep rumple. That's me. Add cruel to mad. I'm the cruel mad mom with a bad kid who I have thrown out into the cold just so he can hit rock bottom.
When I need support I come here to my other mothers in arms who understand parenting a child on the skids. That's the point.
I have wonderful insurance, a great education, 5 phenomenal universities within a 2 hours drive, a fast processor and google. When I want to explore different avenues of treatment and get learned, groundbreaking advice; I can get it. (And I have availed myself of it.)
You came here with the assumption that this is a place for naive mommies to trade homegrown wisdom and give bad advice to one another. Nothing could be further from the truth. You never extended the courtesy of exploring the forum, lurking, reading, seeking understanding or simpatico with the members. Rather you saw us as an audience. And you plunged in certain we would all jump at the chance to be enlightened by you. You failed to show us even a modicum of respect as hurting parents and -dare I say- your elders. I suspect your mum would post here from an entirely different perspective.
But - hey - thanks for the labels.
When I need support I come here to my other mothers in arms who understand parenting a child on the skids. That's the point.
I have wonderful insurance, a great education, 5 phenomenal universities within a 2 hours drive, a fast processor and google. When I want to explore different avenues of treatment and get learned, groundbreaking advice; I can get it. (And I have availed myself of it.)
You came here with the assumption that this is a place for naive mommies to trade homegrown wisdom and give bad advice to one another. Nothing could be further from the truth. You never extended the courtesy of exploring the forum, lurking, reading, seeking understanding or simpatico with the members. Rather you saw us as an audience. And you plunged in certain we would all jump at the chance to be enlightened by you. You failed to show us even a modicum of respect as hurting parents and -dare I say- your elders. I suspect your mum would post here from an entirely different perspective.
But - hey - thanks for the labels.
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pasajes4
Well-Known Member
The only thing that is true about any treatment/ approach is that they only work if the addict wants to change. It would seem that at that point, almost any good program/ approach would do the trick. I hope in the deepest part of my mommy heart that all of our addicts reach that point. I never want to see another parent or child have their heart broken by this horrible cancer of the soul.
In reading through the posts my initial reaction is Rumpole is looking at this from the perspective of a younger person, seemingly without children yet, who has somewhat recently come out of a very difficult life challenge which was governed in a particular way which worked very well for him. One of the realities, as I recall from so long ago, is that youth affords one the opportunity to have a point of view which doesn't always include the huge grey area of experience. And, it makes sense to me that because of his own experience, he advocates the way he found recovery. Without difficult child's to raise, without the suffering and angst that comes from that parenting path and the choices one faces that feels like it severs us from our own humanity, without age to offer perspective and with youth on his side, which can bring absolute certainty to issues without certainty...... and with promoting a path many on this board have looked at and bypassed which cost them their own sanity and health, I can see how this caused quite an uproar.
I can also see how Rumpole may be attempting to protect difficult child's he may see as being abandoned by us and perhaps that touches a part in us, a tiny part of our psyche, which feels as if we have, even though that is not the truth. The world can judge us and blame us for how our kids are and the choices we make about them, but in reality, at least in my opinion, no one judges us as harshly as we judge ourselves. Perhaps Rumpole brings that self judgement out. I believe we are all doing the best we can under extraordinarily challenging situations. In Rumpole's zeal and sense of rightness, he may utilize that point of view as an attorney to advocate for the difficult child's who will require that position. It may save a life someday.
I hope I do not offend anyone, this is simply my own point of view. There are a lot of different ways to find our way, and when it comes to our kids, we are all doing the best we can, all the time, I believe that with all my heart.
I can also see how Rumpole may be attempting to protect difficult child's he may see as being abandoned by us and perhaps that touches a part in us, a tiny part of our psyche, which feels as if we have, even though that is not the truth. The world can judge us and blame us for how our kids are and the choices we make about them, but in reality, at least in my opinion, no one judges us as harshly as we judge ourselves. Perhaps Rumpole brings that self judgement out. I believe we are all doing the best we can under extraordinarily challenging situations. In Rumpole's zeal and sense of rightness, he may utilize that point of view as an attorney to advocate for the difficult child's who will require that position. It may save a life someday.
I hope I do not offend anyone, this is simply my own point of view. There are a lot of different ways to find our way, and when it comes to our kids, we are all doing the best we can, all the time, I believe that with all my heart.
Not quite. I saw Teree's post and I felt obligated to post some information. And having done so, I was pretty shocked and outraged to see parents saying things like jail is a safe place for their children, the addict needs to want to get help, and so on. And seemingly, pointing at the blatant invalidity of AA, something that is scientific, empirical fact, not opinion, is offensive.
If it is true (and you don't need to take my word for it, the double-blind studies on AA, and on maintenance and disulfiram, are there for you to look up), then in fact what I've done is share accurate information about treatment.
But - hey - thanks for the labels.
I think having someone shake things up occasionally couldn't possibly be such a bad thing. The amount of back-slapping and mutual justification is, in my opinion, something that could be self-reinforcing, that those further down the path with their children advise those much earlier in their journey to act in a certain way that probably should come from experience and trial and error.
Perhaps recoveringenabler has come closest to articulating (better than I was able, certainly) what I was feeling when I hit the post button. My sympathy naturally lies with the difficult child, and it breaks my heart to see unwell, disordered, misunderstood kids, much as I was, being labelled as being somehow wilfully disordered and disobedient.
By the way, when I wrote the title "Mad or bad?", I was referring to difficult children. We're presumably mad (as in, mentally ill), or we're bad. I don't think you can say we're both. This is why the issue of willfulness, punishment, being forced to choose between your own wellbeing and that of your child, is so sensitive to me and I expect to all parents going through this.
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toughlovin
Guest
Rumpole, I can totally see where AA is not for everyone but I have also met a number of addicts who have been helped by AA... and I don't think the 12 steps do what you describe them as doing... to me it is about taking responsibilty, making amends and forgiving yourself and moving onwards. So I think you have a very biased opinion of AA...and to be honest I dont really care about scientific studies so much as hearing stories about what helped someone reach sobriety... and there are many stories where AA helped people and I have known some of these people. I also firmly believe there are other methods and ways to sobriety.
The problem with your mention of medicinces such as suboxone... is then you are assuming the addiction is only physical and it is an opiate. Some of our kids will literally take anything to get high... and may not have yet reached use of heroin... and something like suboxone is not going to help if they are still trying to get high with anything they can get their hands on.... they have to also deal with the emotional issues that lead them to trying to use drugs to escape their lives... in other words the issues playing into emotional addiction.
Believe me if I had thought that my son could benefit from my dragging him out for exercise such as your mum did I would have done it. The issues were much bigger than that... and believe me to think of me doing that and him agreeing to go is totally laughable. We were dealing with very destrucitve behavior such as stealing from us.... using whatever drugs he could, using our car without persmission and finally threatening violence to us.
And I am one who made the comment about jail... and no I don't particularly want my son going to jail but to be hoenst it does feel safter than living on the streets homeless, and not knowing where he is. And depending on the jail or the situation drugs may or may not be more available.... it would certainly give him time to think and reflect, have a place to sleep and food to eat!!!! My son did spend 2 weeks in jail at one point and the worst thing he had to deal with was the boredom.... now it was jail and not prison mind you but still there was a lesson there for him and at least for a time he wanted treatment.
I am not sure if you somehow really think that we can get our kids into treatment if they don't want to go..... we can't. I dont hear you at all admitting that really the addict needs to want help and be willing to do the work.
TL
The problem with your mention of medicinces such as suboxone... is then you are assuming the addiction is only physical and it is an opiate. Some of our kids will literally take anything to get high... and may not have yet reached use of heroin... and something like suboxone is not going to help if they are still trying to get high with anything they can get their hands on.... they have to also deal with the emotional issues that lead them to trying to use drugs to escape their lives... in other words the issues playing into emotional addiction.
Believe me if I had thought that my son could benefit from my dragging him out for exercise such as your mum did I would have done it. The issues were much bigger than that... and believe me to think of me doing that and him agreeing to go is totally laughable. We were dealing with very destrucitve behavior such as stealing from us.... using whatever drugs he could, using our car without persmission and finally threatening violence to us.
And I am one who made the comment about jail... and no I don't particularly want my son going to jail but to be hoenst it does feel safter than living on the streets homeless, and not knowing where he is. And depending on the jail or the situation drugs may or may not be more available.... it would certainly give him time to think and reflect, have a place to sleep and food to eat!!!! My son did spend 2 weeks in jail at one point and the worst thing he had to deal with was the boredom.... now it was jail and not prison mind you but still there was a lesson there for him and at least for a time he wanted treatment.
I am not sure if you somehow really think that we can get our kids into treatment if they don't want to go..... we can't. I dont hear you at all admitting that really the addict needs to want help and be willing to do the work.
TL
SuZir
Well-Known Member
My problem is, that I have felt this board is very AA supporting and at times very dismissive for other options. I'm sure people are not doing it in purpose, but comments about someone not being 'true addict' if their recovery doesn't go as AA teaches or idea that someone is dry instead of sober, if they don't believe in AA or 'work the steps' tend to feel quite hostile to me.
I honestly see many problems with 12 steps approach and that is why I don't want my son be part of it. And to my knowledge AA is not any more efficient than any other treatment or no treatment at all (as jarring as it kind of is, it seems most addicts get sober just by themselves.) The one great thing with AA is, that it is free and offers support to also those who have no other choices. My son's treatment is much more expensive but because of universal health care system me and my husband are not the ones paying for it. And from our societies point of view, if it works, it is a really good investment because it will make a scenario there tax payers would be paying my difficult child's living much less likely and making a scenario there difficult child is in fact a good tax payer much more likely. But that is politics and not something in topic in this board.
It bothers me, that when writing to this board I feel the need to censor myself to not create controversy. For example in this thread I wrote about people whom I know and who have recovered well. I wrote that, because I feel writing ex-addict would be too controversial here. Then again most of those people would consider themselves ex-addicts and even find 'being in recovery' offensive. But because AA lingo forbids an idea of ex-addicts, I chose to censor myself and talk about recovering addicts. These people have been sober long time now and while they choose not to drink (much, many of them for example drink their Eucharist wine with alcohol and don't ask non-alcoholic version and drink some locally common low alcoholic drinks (less than 0,8 % alcohol) that we let even our kids drink) or use illicit drugs, they don't want to define themselves by something they used to do ten years ago.
Great post, Suzir. I can't tell you how important that last bit is. It's incredibly depressing to be told by AA, "You're never going to be an ex-addict, we're never going to let you live this down or get over it". I actually do drink alcohol, and it's because having an interesting, normal life is what makes it worth it not to relapse, or to get back on the wagon very quickly if I do.
I am circumspect about bringing national issues into this, but I can't help but think that cultural orientation does create a very different approach. I think the AA/NA model fits perfectly with the puritanic, self-help, "choose your own religion" mindset of the United States. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love the country,, but it seems as though there's a tendency to confuse one's right to have an opinion, with the idea that all opinions and facts are equal and should be treated as such.
There are empirical reasons why the countries we live in will fund drug treatment, including maintenance, as part of a national health service, and not fund nonprofessional, group therapy such as AA. It's because we know one works, and the other is indistinguishable from the spontaneous remission rate (the number of addicts who get well by themselves) in terms of outcomes.
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Signorina
Guest
The Rumpole doth protest too much, methinks.
I can't fathom where or how or WHY on Earth you think we are in need of shaking up! And why on earth do you feel a mandate to be the shaker? That's meant to be rhetorical, by the way
When I read your assumptions about me, about the jail in my well heeled, affluent suburb, about parenting in general I start to bristle, and then I remember the saying about the word "assume."
That you actually believe your recent 6 months of sobriety gives you intimate knowledge of my child whom you have never met is mind boggling. in my opinion - your painting of our collective difficult child's- the sons and daughters of my friends- in your own mirror image suggests a bit of simple-mindedness and dare I say; a smidgen of self righteous narcissism. Ah, the ignorance of wide-eyed youth!
Enjoying the platitudes? I can write in them all day. But I won't. Your repetitive responses and evident need to have the last word suggest an unease about you. And as a mother, I will bow out in order to give that last word in hopes that it soothes your soul . I truly wish you continued success as you battle addiction. I wish you the gifts of grace and humility. But most of all, I wish you peace.
Good day.
I can't fathom where or how or WHY on Earth you think we are in need of shaking up! And why on earth do you feel a mandate to be the shaker? That's meant to be rhetorical, by the way
When I read your assumptions about me, about the jail in my well heeled, affluent suburb, about parenting in general I start to bristle, and then I remember the saying about the word "assume."
That you actually believe your recent 6 months of sobriety gives you intimate knowledge of my child whom you have never met is mind boggling. in my opinion - your painting of our collective difficult child's- the sons and daughters of my friends- in your own mirror image suggests a bit of simple-mindedness and dare I say; a smidgen of self righteous narcissism. Ah, the ignorance of wide-eyed youth!
Enjoying the platitudes? I can write in them all day. But I won't. Your repetitive responses and evident need to have the last word suggest an unease about you. And as a mother, I will bow out in order to give that last word in hopes that it soothes your soul . I truly wish you continued success as you battle addiction. I wish you the gifts of grace and humility. But most of all, I wish you peace.
Good day.
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The reason that AA gets a lot of support is because it represents ACTION. An addict willing to attend AA meetings is taking ACTION - they are willing to do something to help themselves. The idea behind AA is that it is supposed to help the addict by replacing the addiction with a new behavior for coping with the trigger that causes the addict to use. For some it works - for others it doesn't.
Unfortunately, there is no shortage of very expensive facilities that require a HUGE financial commitment from Mom and Dad...and then cannot guarantee any results. These are the solutions that do not get much support around here. Parents can literally go broke hoping for a miracle from these kinds of places. At the end of the day - no money in the world can save an addict from themselves if they are bent on destruction.
I am curious about the suboxone (sp?)....
Is it a substitute drug? As in: instead of using heroin, I will use suboxone? Isn't suboxone addictive in and of itself? Or am I confusing it with something else?
Suz I don't recall ever reading any posts of yours that gave us information on what is helping your difficult child. As I stated, please don't use this forum to bash one method of recovery when in fact it has helped millions of people irregardless of what Rumpole has said. I stand by my words that if you came on our forum and told us about your son's success with whatever program he is fortunate enough to attend we would all celebrate that with you and would never tell you that it was not valid. Kathy's difficult child was having success with the DBT program. Even though that program did not work for my difficult child and she just completely snowed the very competant therapist I am happy for her difficult child.
Hopefully we can soon get back to supporting each other no matter what program or non program our difficult child's are in or are not in.
Nancy
Hopefully we can soon get back to supporting each other no matter what program or non program our difficult child's are in or are not in.
Nancy
Interesting last words. I don't see it as a battle, this is probably more of a "never the twain shall meet" situation. But your call; I'll stick to the treatments that has given me 7/8 years of no heroin use punctuated by 9 weeks of use, and the mental space and peace of mind to get into the best law school in the UK, and you keep doing whatever it is that works so well for you (including, I presume, personal insults like calling people simple-minded).
You'll forgive me if I don't wish you a good day, I tend not to say things when I blatantly do not mean them.
R
It is physically addictive, but the philosophy is that being a quite benign drug, surely it is better someone is physically addicted to suboxone than physically and mentally addicted to heroin, and experiencing all the downsides that come from the illicit nature of heroin (the dangers of being arrested, of overdosing, etc). It's also not a drug where your tolerance increases over time if you stay on the same dose.
In fact, buprenorphine (the main constituent drug of Suboxone) has just gone generic. There are hundreds of GPs in most states who are able to prescribe it, so it is in fact quite cost effective. It might not deal with other mental health issues, but at the very least it spares the person in question from the chaos of illicit drug addiction. Unfortunately, there are many who believe that despite being on the same dose of suboxone, employed, at school, that it is no better than being a heroin addict. I've never understood that myself.
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