I have a 14 year old daugther. She has always been somewhat strong willed and her emotions have been very strong (very happy, very mad, etc.) Otherwise, though, she was a generally kind, happy, caring, well liked child. She has long had a diagnosis of adhd. In the past year, she had dramatically changed. She has been involved with the legal system for a violent crime against my husband (her dad), run away many times, stolen from us, been involved in some shady things online, etc. She has taken now to screaming profanities at me when she doesn't get her way. This is upsetting enough as I'm not the type of person who uses this language at all, nor are most of the people in our circle, but we have a 5 year old who looks up to her who has started to imitate her behavior. She has deep hatred for me as her mom, seeming to believe that everything that ever goes wrong is my fault completely. She cannot hear no or that she is wrong about anything without losing it. When she starts screaming at me, what do I do? I have told her to go to her room and cool off. She refuses. I have tried walking away. She follows me, blocks my path or taunts me. I have tried just repeating my directions (go to your room.) calmly while looking at her in the eye. She just escalates or says "make me." She is in counseling twice a week, sees a psychiatrist who has her on mood stabilizers, has been in jail for 12 days, in the behavioral health ward of the hospital, has social workers trying to help us, her dad and I are in counseling regarding how to parent her, but she just keeps escalating and I hate most of all that it's damaging my son's chance at the same stable, happy childhood she had. Help!
14 Year Old Screaming Profanities At Me
- Thread starter lionsmom
- Start date
Helpless29
Well-Known Member
I feel for you my son started at the age of 13 teen , he has been in and out of behavioral centers nothing seemed to help. Are you suspicious the shady online stuff , has anything to do with drugs? My sons behavior really started to change when he started smoking weed & getting pills. I never thought he would do stuff like that & now looking back I missed all the signs. He is now 17 teen & has been in out of juvenile detention & countless behavioral centers. I pray for your family , I been through it all. I hope you are able to get the help she needs before it gets worst & also for the safety of your younger one. Is there any residential programs available where you live? I know I couldn’t afford any in my city & he had to many pending cases to go. Ask the social worker they should have some resources for longer term programs. I hope things get better , keep posting this is a great site for help, it helped me through my toughest times.
MamaRosie
New Member
Oh boy... that has to be very stressful for you and your husband. I don't have any experience with a situation like yours so I have no advice to offer.
To me it seems like getting professionals involved is a good way to approach this.
Just wanted to offer you my support.
I figured out she was vaping the other day after finding the charger hidden in her room. Shortly after told her what I'd found, she came out and blew vape smoke in my husband's face, so clearly she is not concerned that we know this. I threw the device away, but she could probably get more easily. I wouldn't doubt she's tried other things but I don't have proof.
My insurance doesn't cover long term treatment for mental health at all, and although her counselor thinks that's what she needs, the psychiatrist and social worker won't even consider it. I can't make her go, anyway. In our state at 14 she can legally refuse treatment.
My insurance doesn't cover long term treatment for mental health at all, and although her counselor thinks that's what she needs, the psychiatrist and social worker won't even consider it. I can't make her go, anyway. In our state at 14 she can legally refuse treatment.
While there are ways to make them agree, it isn't always best to force the issue. I had a son who would do all the same stuff, but he was incredibly violent also. He truly wanted to murder his little sister, and when he would try, I got between them. Finally we (hubby and I) decided that he could no longer live with us. I managed to get a scholarship for him at a very well regarded boys' home. At that point, my parents asked if they could have a chance with him. I don't know what they did, but over about 6 years, everything turned around. Now he is a great big brother and son, and he has kept a job with basically the same company since he was 16. He is now a manager and has a real career.
I would advise you to pick your battles. I would also start making her responsible for anything she wants. She can earn money, or she can go without. As for the screaming, try to ignore it. I know how hard that is. I truly do. But screaming back or getting in her way won't help. Maybe she can earn things back by going X days without screaming at you. I would also have a private visit with the social worker and psychiatrist and askt hem why they think long term treatment is not appropriate?
Take video of her screaming, and other types of outbursts. Insist on her therapist and psychiatrist watching them and then telling you how to handle it. If your experience is like mine, they will try to brush it off, esp when you ask how to handle it. Keep bringing them back to the topic. It took me multiple visits to get answers. They were VERY irritated that I kept bringing them back to concrete questions rather than vague answers. I didn't care if they were irritated with me or not. Honestly, I thought they were ridiculous when they got irritated that I wanted a real answer - even an honest "I don't know" would have been better than the vagueness. The one therapist who had never had her own kids used to try to tell me that my son screaming at me for half and hour was something I should know how to prevent.
She got REALLY upset when I then offered to send him home with her for a week so that SHE could deal with it and give me REAL pointers. I was told that "Parents who care don't say things like that." My response was "That is what happens when idiots blame parents for things when they haven't even TRIED to take care of kids one on one." We were done with her at that point, for a lot of reasons.
I do recommend reading "The Explosive Child" and "How to Talk so Teens Will Listen". You can find them on most sites that sell books.
I would advise you to pick your battles. I would also start making her responsible for anything she wants. She can earn money, or she can go without. As for the screaming, try to ignore it. I know how hard that is. I truly do. But screaming back or getting in her way won't help. Maybe she can earn things back by going X days without screaming at you. I would also have a private visit with the social worker and psychiatrist and askt hem why they think long term treatment is not appropriate?
Take video of her screaming, and other types of outbursts. Insist on her therapist and psychiatrist watching them and then telling you how to handle it. If your experience is like mine, they will try to brush it off, esp when you ask how to handle it. Keep bringing them back to the topic. It took me multiple visits to get answers. They were VERY irritated that I kept bringing them back to concrete questions rather than vague answers. I didn't care if they were irritated with me or not. Honestly, I thought they were ridiculous when they got irritated that I wanted a real answer - even an honest "I don't know" would have been better than the vagueness. The one therapist who had never had her own kids used to try to tell me that my son screaming at me for half and hour was something I should know how to prevent.
She got REALLY upset when I then offered to send him home with her for a week so that SHE could deal with it and give me REAL pointers. I was told that "Parents who care don't say things like that." My response was "That is what happens when idiots blame parents for things when they haven't even TRIED to take care of kids one on one." We were done with her at that point, for a lot of reasons.
I do recommend reading "The Explosive Child" and "How to Talk so Teens Will Listen". You can find them on most sites that sell books.
IrisTheVirus
New Member
My younger daughter is very similar. She bullies us successfully because if we deny her she will be in our face for as long as it takes - even if it's days. We haven't held out longer than days because my husband needs to sleep in order to be able to keep his job. I have wanted her to stab me or something similar so we could get her out of the house, but she seems to know what lines not to cross to stay out of legal trouble.
Copabanana
Well-Known Member
I wrote this before I read the rest of your posts. I will leave it because maybe somebody else will read it: As far as residential treatment goes, if you're in the USA, and the child goes for some underlying health or mental health issue, the school district must pay for their share. But this requires she be on an IEP. I would get an advocate to help you. If you are in the States, I would start on that now. Because your daughter would be vulnerable without an IEP in my view.
That's tough that your state's laws tie your hands. It doesn't seem fair that you as the parent bear all of the responsibility (even legal responsibility) without any ability to enforce treatment. I would go to Al Anon, to try to learn skills to enforce boundaries, to cope and to get support.
As naive as this may sound, I would do whatever I could to learn how to get control of the situation and curb her power. Other parents, have gone so far as to remove doors, to restrict allowance, to take away electronics including cell phones and computers, etc. The thing is sometimes restricting them makes our lives harder, or impossible, in the short-run.
It sounds to me like there are drugs involved. As parents, you would be able to have her tested through the doctor. I would request a multi-panel drug test.
Even if she is legally able to refuse treatment, she is not legally able to be a menace and to terrorize the family. I would discuss this with my husband (to be on the same team) and I would decide together what are your limits.
I want to put here I agree with everything Susie says.
She does not have to stab you to be behaving in a manner that it is against the law. The violent crime against your husband, the stealing, blocking your path, all of these are hostile, aggressive and potentially violent. That said, is there a diagnosis? Is this a mood disorder? Your daughter seems to exhibit self-control when she wants to. She seems manipulative. There may be some choice involved in this.
What I am getting at, is that I agree with you. It has to be considered, the effect on your younger child. I don't think you can accept that she terrorize the home, and your youngest child in it. If your younger child is now aping the bigger one, this can't be overlooked. This child needs to be protected.
There are behavioral analysts that can come to the house, observe her behavior, observe family interactions, and teach you to implement a plan to help her control her behavior. If it were me I would find the regional children's hospital near me (you can google it on google maps) and call the Child Development Center. There are teams of neuropsychologists, social workers, child psychiatrists who can help you determine what you're dealing with.
From what you've posted it's hard to know what's going on. Is this an incipient mental illness? Is it drugs? Has something happened to her that is eating at her, about which she hasn't spoken?
Finally, I would post here night and day. In my own experience this kind of situation is not going to resolve easily and quickly. Any solutions come with hard work, lots of trying, and they come slowly. First you need more information to know what you are dealing with. If it were me, I would keep posting. That is what I did. For 5 years. Ultimately I don't think anything here helped me change my situation, but it did help me change me.
That's tough that your state's laws tie your hands. It doesn't seem fair that you as the parent bear all of the responsibility (even legal responsibility) without any ability to enforce treatment. I would go to Al Anon, to try to learn skills to enforce boundaries, to cope and to get support.
As naive as this may sound, I would do whatever I could to learn how to get control of the situation and curb her power. Other parents, have gone so far as to remove doors, to restrict allowance, to take away electronics including cell phones and computers, etc. The thing is sometimes restricting them makes our lives harder, or impossible, in the short-run.
It sounds to me like there are drugs involved. As parents, you would be able to have her tested through the doctor. I would request a multi-panel drug test.
Even if she is legally able to refuse treatment, she is not legally able to be a menace and to terrorize the family. I would discuss this with my husband (to be on the same team) and I would decide together what are your limits.
I want to put here I agree with everything Susie says.
She does not have to stab you to be behaving in a manner that it is against the law. The violent crime against your husband, the stealing, blocking your path, all of these are hostile, aggressive and potentially violent. That said, is there a diagnosis? Is this a mood disorder? Your daughter seems to exhibit self-control when she wants to. She seems manipulative. There may be some choice involved in this.
What I am getting at, is that I agree with you. It has to be considered, the effect on your younger child. I don't think you can accept that she terrorize the home, and your youngest child in it. If your younger child is now aping the bigger one, this can't be overlooked. This child needs to be protected.
There are behavioral analysts that can come to the house, observe her behavior, observe family interactions, and teach you to implement a plan to help her control her behavior. If it were me I would find the regional children's hospital near me (you can google it on google maps) and call the Child Development Center. There are teams of neuropsychologists, social workers, child psychiatrists who can help you determine what you're dealing with.
From what you've posted it's hard to know what's going on. Is this an incipient mental illness? Is it drugs? Has something happened to her that is eating at her, about which she hasn't spoken?
Finally, I would post here night and day. In my own experience this kind of situation is not going to resolve easily and quickly. Any solutions come with hard work, lots of trying, and they come slowly. First you need more information to know what you are dealing with. If it were me, I would keep posting. That is what I did. For 5 years. Ultimately I don't think anything here helped me change my situation, but it did help me change me.
I'm so sorry you are going through this.
My theory, regardless of the "cause" of what's going on our young ones who go so far out of the norm is that they have two basic things happening within them. One, is a lack of a break system. They seem to have nothing that will stop them from stepping over the line, and then stepping further and further over the line. It's that something that has kept us from daring to do anything like they do. The other thing is once they step far enough over that line they learn we really can't do anything about it and it gives them a sense of power. Maybe, most likely, the only thing in their lives where they feel they have power and control, because they know they can't control themselves. This then becomes their go to, instead of any kind of maturing. Just my theory.
A couple of possible helpful points:
1. It seems you might qualify for wrap around services. Considering she has been hospitalized instead of in jail for whatever she was in trouble for. Has the division of Youth and Family services been involved? If so you might qualify for long term inpatient mental health services or a residential treatment facility. You might qualify to have someone come into your home for treatment. You might qualify for her to have a "mentor" who takes her out of the house to spend time with her to try to gain a connection. As far as having insurance that covers long term mental health treatment, I don't know anyone who has that. I could go on about how the insurance companies have taken great advantage of lowering their expenses in the name of the "civil rights" of people with mental illness but I'll just drop that, it's not useful in dealing with the reality of it, it is what it is.
2. The psychiatrist who has your daughter on a mood stabilizer. Mood stabilizers are not for ADHD, they are for mood disorders. I would have a meeting with that psychiatrist, without your daughter present, to discuss what his actual diagnosis is. As a minor, bipolar would not be something they could assign, but mood disorder Not Otherwise Specified could. It's obvious the mood stabilizer is not working. It could be she needs an add on medication, or it could be she does not have a mood disorder at all. Considering the medication she is on is not working, considering you stated she has generally been a kind, well liked and caring child in the past I feel I would be looking into a different psychiatrist who might specialize in girls entering puberty with ADHD. This is just a gut feeling on my part.
3. Therapy for both you and your husband as far as parenting her is great. But considering your situation, I would suggest individual therapy for your own mental health with someone who knows intimately how it is to deal with an out of control child could be very helpful. What I mean is someone who knows how to help you work through the trauma of being in this majorly out of control situation and keep, find, your grounding. Same for your younger child, therapy with the right person would be very helpful. The right therapist(s) is the key here.
I know it's hard to read this stuff. I know the feeling of being so disappointed when looking for a clear, concise road map back to normalcy and sanity only to read way more than you are prepared for. We are here, when you are ready. Wishing the best for you.
My theory, regardless of the "cause" of what's going on our young ones who go so far out of the norm is that they have two basic things happening within them. One, is a lack of a break system. They seem to have nothing that will stop them from stepping over the line, and then stepping further and further over the line. It's that something that has kept us from daring to do anything like they do. The other thing is once they step far enough over that line they learn we really can't do anything about it and it gives them a sense of power. Maybe, most likely, the only thing in their lives where they feel they have power and control, because they know they can't control themselves. This then becomes their go to, instead of any kind of maturing. Just my theory.
A couple of possible helpful points:
1. It seems you might qualify for wrap around services. Considering she has been hospitalized instead of in jail for whatever she was in trouble for. Has the division of Youth and Family services been involved? If so you might qualify for long term inpatient mental health services or a residential treatment facility. You might qualify to have someone come into your home for treatment. You might qualify for her to have a "mentor" who takes her out of the house to spend time with her to try to gain a connection. As far as having insurance that covers long term mental health treatment, I don't know anyone who has that. I could go on about how the insurance companies have taken great advantage of lowering their expenses in the name of the "civil rights" of people with mental illness but I'll just drop that, it's not useful in dealing with the reality of it, it is what it is.
2. The psychiatrist who has your daughter on a mood stabilizer. Mood stabilizers are not for ADHD, they are for mood disorders. I would have a meeting with that psychiatrist, without your daughter present, to discuss what his actual diagnosis is. As a minor, bipolar would not be something they could assign, but mood disorder Not Otherwise Specified could. It's obvious the mood stabilizer is not working. It could be she needs an add on medication, or it could be she does not have a mood disorder at all. Considering the medication she is on is not working, considering you stated she has generally been a kind, well liked and caring child in the past I feel I would be looking into a different psychiatrist who might specialize in girls entering puberty with ADHD. This is just a gut feeling on my part.
3. Therapy for both you and your husband as far as parenting her is great. But considering your situation, I would suggest individual therapy for your own mental health with someone who knows intimately how it is to deal with an out of control child could be very helpful. What I mean is someone who knows how to help you work through the trauma of being in this majorly out of control situation and keep, find, your grounding. Same for your younger child, therapy with the right person would be very helpful. The right therapist(s) is the key here.
I know it's hard to read this stuff. I know the feeling of being so disappointed when looking for a clear, concise road map back to normalcy and sanity only to read way more than you are prepared for. We are here, when you are ready. Wishing the best for you.
JMom
Well-Known Member
Lion,
I am sorry that you are dealing with this. It sounds overwhelming. If you are in the US, (Texas specifically) we have a law against blocking a person's movements. Kidnapping is the most severe, but trickles all the way down to "unlawful restraint", which is what you are describing from your daughter. I am not suggesting that you press charges, that is a personal choice, but the fact that you have a younger impressionable child, in the home makes this situation more volatile. I am not sure how to make her accountable other than, as previously suggested, taking everything away and having her earn privileges by demonstrating good behavior.
If it were me, I would lean toward having her removed (even if for a short time) to protect the younger child. I don't think anyone is a fan of getting Child Protective Services involved, but perhaps it would protect the younger child, who is learning dangerous behaviors. Another thought-the vape pen might actually be a "dab" pen, which is odorless much like vape juice but it a VERY concentrated tar-ish (oil) marijuana, often sprinkled with other drugs. That form of marijuana is so much stronger than smoking mainstream weed. Your local police department could test it for you very easily. Here in the states, the store DollarTree sells marijuana urine tests for $1. I don't know that would comply with a urine test, but it is an option.
Best of luck to you. My heart goes out to you as this is no doubt very hurtful.
Hugs,
JMOM
I am sorry that you are dealing with this. It sounds overwhelming. If you are in the US, (Texas specifically) we have a law against blocking a person's movements. Kidnapping is the most severe, but trickles all the way down to "unlawful restraint", which is what you are describing from your daughter. I am not suggesting that you press charges, that is a personal choice, but the fact that you have a younger impressionable child, in the home makes this situation more volatile. I am not sure how to make her accountable other than, as previously suggested, taking everything away and having her earn privileges by demonstrating good behavior.
If it were me, I would lean toward having her removed (even if for a short time) to protect the younger child. I don't think anyone is a fan of getting Child Protective Services involved, but perhaps it would protect the younger child, who is learning dangerous behaviors. Another thought-the vape pen might actually be a "dab" pen, which is odorless much like vape juice but it a VERY concentrated tar-ish (oil) marijuana, often sprinkled with other drugs. That form of marijuana is so much stronger than smoking mainstream weed. Your local police department could test it for you very easily. Here in the states, the store DollarTree sells marijuana urine tests for $1. I don't know that would comply with a urine test, but it is an option.
Best of luck to you. My heart goes out to you as this is no doubt very hurtful.
Hugs,
JMOM
If you are in the US, it can be extremely difficult to even FIND a residential facility, much less a bed in one that is appropriate for your child's problems. It literally took me spending 5 or more hours a day over more than 2 weeks to find a hospital for my son when he was 12. My insurance wouldn't even begin to help until I actually had a report from Child Protective Services about my son strangling his little sister. CPS first wanted to get me into trouble because I yanked him off of her and left a bruise on his arm. The doctor had already documented my daughter's bruises (all around her throat - he was completely serious about murdering her). It took both the doctor and the school principal complaining about the social worker for a review to be done. The social worker was fired over her behavior and her insistence that my son was "an absolute angel" who was being persecuted by his "evil" mother. Then I was able to get documents faxed to our insurance company to get them to help us find someplace to help him. It was a difficult and convoluted process. Meanwhile my daughter had to sleep with us because who knew when Wiz would try again. It was very frustrating, especially on very little sleep.
One thing that really helped me get people to stop focusing on "poor little Wiz" and start focusing on giving us some concrete suggestions to help the entire family was to tell the doctors/therapists/whomevers that I was not going to sacrifice my daughter on the altar of my son's behavioral/mental/emotional problems. I actually asked a lot of shocking questions, apparently. I thought they were logical, but people seemed shocked when I asked them. Such as "what message is it sending my daughter when I pay her brother to not hurt her?" Yes, we had a therapist who wanted me to pay Wiz with a token every time I "caught" him being near his little sister without hurting her. Tokens could then be exchanged for things he wanted. I guess the therapist never bothered to think about other kids in the family. Luckily he was a postgraduate fellow, so he had a supervisor who was NOT happy to hear about his suggestion. I can guarantee that my daughter would have wondered why she was so unlovable that we had to pay her brother to not hurt her.
If you want specifics on how I got people to give me the info I needed, and got them to finally help us, let me know.
One thing that really helped me get people to stop focusing on "poor little Wiz" and start focusing on giving us some concrete suggestions to help the entire family was to tell the doctors/therapists/whomevers that I was not going to sacrifice my daughter on the altar of my son's behavioral/mental/emotional problems. I actually asked a lot of shocking questions, apparently. I thought they were logical, but people seemed shocked when I asked them. Such as "what message is it sending my daughter when I pay her brother to not hurt her?" Yes, we had a therapist who wanted me to pay Wiz with a token every time I "caught" him being near his little sister without hurting her. Tokens could then be exchanged for things he wanted. I guess the therapist never bothered to think about other kids in the family. Luckily he was a postgraduate fellow, so he had a supervisor who was NOT happy to hear about his suggestion. I can guarantee that my daughter would have wondered why she was so unlovable that we had to pay her brother to not hurt her.
If you want specifics on how I got people to give me the info I needed, and got them to finally help us, let me know.
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So sorry. My adult daughter started out like this as well at age 13. Lying and stealing then onto drugs and drinking. At 32 she still is mean and manipulating and deceitful. It’s to the point now that we are estranged. She has done horrible things to me and others. I tried counseling and medications for her. Nothing worked. Just a few years ago I had to stop contact for my own well being. Some personality disorders like my daughters aren’t easily treated let alone identified.
