Conduct disorder diagnosis

[RobinLaurain]

OMG, Nancy!! How I wish my son were labled "Bipolar" instead of "CD". In Michigan getting services is very difficult for someone who has the diagnosis. of Conduct Disorder. I regret someone in this forum told you, you were in denial. None of us have the place to make assumptions such as that. We are experts on our own children. What works for some--does not work for all. You just have to follow your gut. If it all worked the same, we wouldn't need this forum. All we would have to do is follow a step by step program.
Unfortunately, this is not the case. My children had the best in mental health services and I followed the suggestions to the letter, but they all ended up incarcerated at some point. My oldest difficult child passed away from natural causes, but she did finally go into remission a year before she died. I was able to experience with her, her success and I am grateful for it. My other two difficult children are both incarcerated, but their lives are not over yet. I just keep hoping.

 

[branbran]

RobinLaurain,

I am so sorry about your son. I can only imagine how difficult it is to lose a child. For all that you have gone through, your son's death and two children in jail, I admire your strength!!! I love your attitude, I hope to be in the place you are someday.

God bless. :smile:

 

[RobinLaurain]

[color:#33CC00][/color]It comes and goes the place I am at. I have been inert the past few days. Not doing much. Knowing what I need to do next, but not having the energy to do it. Pray for me. Saturday, I had my suitcase packed and was ready to go away. I stumbled across this page. I have been not doing much else since.
I was going to leave and not tell anyone where I was at. My suitcase sits on the dining room table packed, but I still sit here. So what does that say to you? LOL. I have my moments.

 

[wakeupcall]

My difficult child was diagnosis at age four with ADHD. About two years later a pediatrician said read this book, "The Bipolar Child" because she thought it might fit. It didn't....at the time. He had the diagnosis then of ADHD and ODD. My difficult child is now almost twelve. Just in the last two months he has been started on Lithium....and omg...he's almost human. Inbetween age four and age eleven, his behavior has fit every single criteria for ODD (and quickly heading for a diagnosis of CD by his psychologist). There is no doubt in my mind whatsoever that he has ODD, but now I wonder if he had EOBD all along, just didn't fit all the criteria till recently. My point is that I think it sometimes takes years for everything to come to light in their behavior. As those years go along most of us have other crisis in our lives that can affect these children, so we think, well....maybe they are reacting to that crisis? It's all so difficult. I guess right now I'm wondering if my son had been diagnosis'd with EOBD as a toddler and he'd been put on a mood stabilizer sooner, maybe we wouldn't have all been through the He** we've all been through. Oh, I'll never say, "He's all better.", but oh my, he's soooooo much better on Lithium. I think I'm going to fall into the category of.....the Lithium works, therefore he must be bipolar. Do others feel like if ___ medication works, then my child must be ___?

 

[smallworld]

Well, Pamela, Lithium is only approved to treat acute and chronic bipolar mania. Its off-label uses are cluster headaches, augmenting antidepressants to treat refractory depression and Graves Disease (hyperthyroidism). So I think you have your answer.

 

[flutterbee]

No, I don't. Mood stabilizers are used for anger management, emotional regulation, etc., not just bipolar. My daughter is not bipolar - according to psychiatrist and neuropsychologist - however, mood stabilizers have been recommended because of her lack of emotional regulation. My "second son" is a difficult child with impulse control and anger issues - he was diagnosis'd ODD and was headed towards CD. He is not bipolar. However, he was rx'd depakote because of his anger issues and it made a big difference.

 

[RobinLaurain]

Unfortunately, no medications. ever worked for my child so I have no doubt he has CD with his other D's. He was as wild on them or off them unless the medications. sedated him. I went through that for years--would you rather have him sedated or wild? I would rather have him functioning adequately in society, I would reply. It would happen
in spurts. The sixth grade was his most wonderful year. We were involved in wraparound and he had a wonderful Special Education. teacher.
By high school, he refused to take his medications. I would find them hidden in all kinds of places. He turned to drinking and weed to calm himself down which eventually led to his incarceration. He actually acted human when he was high, but I told him over and over
the weed will land him in jail. I told him only in California can
Marinol be used for ADD. Another reason I know he is CD because he will tell you--"The only disorder I have is I don't give a sh** dis-order!" Hmm, Sounds conduct disorder to me.

 

[branbran]

RobinLaurain,

Sorry you are having a hard time right now. You are entitled to have bad days heck, you earn those bad days. You are allowed to be sad and frustrated, at your complete wit's end!! All of us feel that way at times. Unpack your suitcase, "this too shall pass". I can tell just by reading a couple of your post's that you are fighter, you said yourself "I just keep hoping", where there is hope, there is possibility. Take some time to be sad, that's okay. Don't let the sadness take over, find the strength to see the sunshine through the rain. There are brighter days ahead. :smile:

You are in my prayer's.

 

[RobinLaurain]

((((((((((((((Huggs)))))))))))))). I needed that!! :crying:

 

[BusynMember]

Has he ever been on mood stabilizers without being on stimulants or antidepressants at the same time? If not, he hasn't been on everything.Good luck :smile:

 

[RobinLaurain]

My son will not take medications now. I believe he always was given a mood stabilizer with a stimulant. I cannot remember a time he wasn't on a stimulant. He has tried all the drugs possible before the year 2001--always a combo. like Prozac, Adderall, Risperdal, Clonidine. He was on Depakote, Lithium--he used to get IM Thorazine in school until I put a stop to that. He was in a partial-hospital. program and they would give him the injection and he would sleep all day--hardly getting an education and then be awake all night. They threw his sleep pattern off. I am so glad those days are over. He has his GED and is taking classes in prison that I pay for from a University. I have to fight with the prison to let him take them. They take them away from him when he is in seg. I do see why they do it, but it seems counterproductive.

 

[Nancy]

"Mood stabilizers are used for anger management, emotional regulation, etc., not just bipolar. My daughter is not bipolar - according to psychiatrist and neuropsychologist - however, mood stabilizers have been recommended because of her lack of emotional regulation. My "second son" is a difficult child with impulse control and anger issues - he was diagnosis'd ODD and was headed towards CD. He is not bipolar. However, he was rx'd depakote because of his anger issues and it made a big difference."

Thank you WG. Mood stabilizers are NOT just used for bipolar. Your second son sounds much like my difficult child. She has a problem with impulse control and anger issues. The mood stabilizer helps her control that. My sister is on a mood stabilzer because she had heart surgery and her moods were all over the place, which I understand is often common with that type of surgery. She certainly doesn't have bipolar. There are zillions of adolescent girls who have severe mood swings who are not bipolar by any means. Heck there are millions of post menopausal women who have severe mood swings and I'm sure they aren't bipolar.

Nancy

 

[DammitJanet]

Im sure it would cloud the waters here to point out that mood stabilizers are also used for a variety of personality disorders too. I realize there are some who simply do not believe in personality disorders but as a person who lives with both, they do exist! I can tell when I am having a bipolar moment and when Im having a borderline moment.

 

[BusynMember]

Mood stabilizers are often used for Borderline Personality Disorder which many Psychiatrists feel is on the bipolar spectrum. I can not tell you how many talks I've had with MD Psychiatrists about this particular issue since I got the Borderline (BPD) diagnosis first and then bipolar. Since I no longer display any Borderline (BPD) traits, we've discussed it. Of course, different Psychiatrists have different opinions, but I've only talked to non-MD therapists/psycologists who don't agree that bipolar medications help Borderline (BPD) because it's on the spectrum. Again, I don't really care what it's called as long as it is tried and helped. Too many parents get ODD/CD diagnosis. and are told only therapy works. Or their told the child "chooses" to be "bad." Or that your parenting is bad. Or that the child needs stims or antidepressants. I've heard it all myself. I'm not a newbie to mental health care professionals, and I always tried to see Psychiatrists with really good reps so I could get the best "cutting edge" care. Many ODD/CD kids, once put on bipolar medications, suddenly improve after many years. It makes one think, in my opinion. And I think it is often delayed because of ODD/CD diagnoses, so it's always good to question doctors when getting a grim diagnosis. I sure would want to give my kid the benefit of the doubt. I want all the parents here to check out all options. If we had quit, my son would still be misdiagnosed. I'm outta this thread, but I won't stop telling people to see a Psychiatrist or neuropsychologist (or both) before accepting an ODD/CD diagnosis. because, in my opinion, it's common sense.
Last and final note (and I'm gone): A mood stabilizer is something to stabilize moods. Again, it really doesn't matter what it's called as long as it worked. If a kid with an ODD/CD/ABCDE diagnosis. gets help from a mood stabilizer, who cares what it's called?

 

[BusynMember]

One last bit :smile: If parents (NOT MEDICAL PROFESSIONS) had not told me that my child seemed like he was on the autistic spectrum, I would not have pursued it. He is doing GREAT--much better off medications and with Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) therapy. I am grateful to those who brought it up to me. Where they qualified to diagnose? Well, they weren't doctors, but they'd gone through the mill and I am and always will be grateful for what they shared. My son had a bipolar diagnosis, and I was afraid that, off medications, he'd start moodswinging, but IT NEVER HAPPENED. I was happy to chase any leads because, in my gut, I knew bipolar seemed, at best, just a guess, and not even a good one.

Over and out :smile:

 

[SRL]

Janet, we occasionally get a parent on the primary board whose child has been diagnosed with Conduct Disorder. I have in the past and will continue in the future strongly urge those parents to seek out another opinion as well as to make sure that a full multidisciplinary evaluation has been done. I do this for two reasons. First, CD is a serious diagnosis in the services sense: often a dead end in terms of school services because it pegs the child as total behavioral and often limits what is extended to them. Secondly, the few times it has come through the diagnosis has been given by a psychologist without a full multidisciplinary evaluation. Once what pushed the diagnosis over into CD was a parent checkmark on a form saying the child was cruel to animals and the psychologist interpreted everything to the extreme. I don't excuse cruelty but even my easy child brother was unkind to animals from time to time. Once the neighbors caught my brothers holding a blanket spread out and tossing our cat into the air and catching it on the blanket again. Definitely not nice for the at, but it was more stupid kid stuff.

The current DSM text revision pushed the age for CD diagnosis as being possible for young children and I have serious issues with that. Often when parents take the additional steps to get "the works" done an underlying cause or multiple causes are determined. I challenge nearly every parent to make sure a child of this age has a multidisciplinary done so I am not singling out this one disorder. It's so critical at young ages to get as full a grasp on what is going on so that when behaviors have the feel or look or are truly on their way to being CD, it's my hope that early intervention based on a thorough knowledge of the child's issues will turn the tide.

 

[DammitJanet]

SRL...you are looking at pre-schoolers on the early childhood board. You also see many kids from other countries which use the term Conduct Disorder as a catch all phrase. I have read..and I may be wrong...but the UK and Canada still use that term as an umbrella term to cover a spectrum of disorders that we would call all these other terms in the US.

I would seriously question a 3 year old having the capacity to be CD. Obviously how would a child of that age even get out to do some of the criteria? It would be difficult for one so young to be robbing a person or staying out all night or even being truant.

Im not saying that ALL kids are CD. Im saying that we shouldnt tell a parent who has come here with an older child who has been through the mill that their psychiatrist is wrong! That their kid cannot have CD. That it doesnt exist.

As far as MWM and I go, we are going to have to agree to disagree on this and many subjects. I firmly believe that medication does much good but so does therapy. I also believe that Borderline is a diagnosis completely separate and distinct unto itself from bipolar. Met too many of them! There are distinct diagnostic criteria for each. And do trust me, if you have ever been tangled up with a severe borderline you wouldnt think they were bipolar.

 

[meowbunny]

I was hesitant to reply to this thread but feel I should speak up. My daughter is an alphabet soup. None of her Dxes are chemically based. None are organic, although there is a very slim chance that she may have some Fetal Alcohol Effects (FAE) but that is something we'll never know positively. Because of the overwhelming feeling here that ODD/CD do not stand alone, I hesitated posting on this board even though I've seen how helpful you all are and have lurked for well over two years.

My daughter was tested by psychiatrists, psychologist, neuropsychs and everyone I could think of trying to get answers. There were none except that she was badly damaged emotionally as an infant and toddler. So, she does have reactive attachment disorder (moderate to severe). She does have oppositional defiant disorder (severe to extreme). She does have conduct disorder (mild to moderate). She may or may not fetal alcohol effect (mild). She is not bipolar. She is not on the autistic spectrum.

Thank you, Janet, for validating what I have felt and what has caused my hesitation in posting on this board.

 

[Nancy]

There is a big difference between urging parents of very young children to question whatever diagnosis they are given, especially CD and some who constantly and vigorously question every single diagnosis of ODD and CD and try to persuade you it's something else, usually bipolar or autism.

Why can't we use a disclaimer on all forums and suggest second opinions are useful or that children change so rapidlly that what may look like something today will change many times over the years. That way we can allow parents to post here without always being second guessed that their diagnosis is incorrect. I do not see that done with any other diagnosis, just ODD and CD.

MWM has said herself that she and her children have been misdiagnoses many times. Who is to say the current diagnosis is not another misdiagnosis? Who is any of us to say what is correct or incorrect in someone else. I read that some say if you are on this medication or that medication you must be bipolar or whatever. My sister is on a mood stabiler because she had heart surgery a couple years ago and her moods were all over the place. She is certainly not bipolar. My easy child take Paxil, she is not depressed, she has anxiety and Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD). I happen to believe that we are all a little Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD), some of us have learned ways to overcome it. Thank goodness we were not all diagnosed and put on pills. I use to count steps I took and repeat sentences in my head and have to do things an even number of times. I outgrew that in my young adulthood. Thank goodness someone didn't try to convince me it was soemthing I had to live with or take a medication for.

This has come up over and over again and always with the members who seem to want to get their point across that ODD does not exist. The original owner of this board would probably disagree with that. It is not helpful to constantly argue that the diagnosis of ODD or CD is not correct because you know a child that was diagnosed with that and it was wrong. And I'll say it again, my difficult child has ODD and has not been diagnosed with any other mental disorders. It does not mean she doesn't have some symptoms that are common to other disorders at times, but she has ODD. It can and does exist alone or with other things. Who cares. Why is it so important to persuade someone it doesn't?

Nancy

 

[Nancy]

One more thing, I also believe some people are just not nice people. Some people commit crimes, some people have rages when they don't get their way, some people are loners, some worry a little too much, some like to have things orderly, some are drug or alcohol addicts, some are promiscuous, some don't make good choices. They all don't have mental disorders.

Nancy

P.S. meowbunny, anytime you need validation let me know. There are a few of us here who have been here a long time who understand.