Enabling or not?

[WiseChoices]

JayPee, I so feel where you are at having lived for my childrens' love and approval for so long.
As I continue to work on myself with the 12 steps in Al-Anon, with daily prayer and meditation and exercise, I am learning that my Higher Power loves and approves of me , and when I place my opinion of myself in the hands of sick or other people in general, I am handing all of my God-given power over to them. All of it.
The opinion of other people is none of my business. My children can see me however they chose.
BUT, they do not get to define me, attack me or call me names. Not to my face. Not anymore. Because I am God's child and as such I am valuable, and loved, and loveable, and I am enough. And when I don't protect THAT , I am teaching others how I will allow them to (mis)treat me. I have started to say NO MORE to this. I stop them, I speak up for myself , and I walk away .

I would respond to the email by stating that I don't accept being called names. Thats it. End of email.

I agree with the others here that his employment or lack thereof , even his lies and manipulations are not your property, not your concern.

If he is smart enough to survive on the streets or living in his car, he is smart enough to figure out how to make this job work IF it is true . But either way, it does not concern you.

By showing him YOUR WORTH by teaching him how to treat you respectfully (or lose the privilege of communication with you) , you are doing so much more: You are giving him a chance to start to value himself. Because the way he treats his Mother must be hurting him. It is a reflection of how he feels about himself, of how little dignity he has left. And every time you give him money, bail him out, allow him to disrespect you, you are confirming to him that he has no dignity, no self respect, no honor. If you can't do it for you, do it for him and give him the chance to fix his own life.

You are a kind and loving soul. Start to give yourself the care and love you wish to lavish on your sons. Nurture yourself and watch yourself grow and feel good about yourself to where you no longer need other humans' approval. When you give to yourself what you seek from your sons, they too will have a chance to heal . Be the example, be the strength, be the love. I am praying for you .

 

[Albatross]

Wise, that was beautiful. What a loving way to put things. I am saving your post for my dark moments.

It’s a good question why we tolerate the name-calling and cruel words. I certainly used to, and felt like crap for a long time afterwards. I don’t anymore because I don’t communicate at all with him, but Hubs still does and will say it is because (a) he can’t stop hoping Son will “get it” one of these times and (b) he prefers that contact to no contact at all and the worry that goes with it. And truthfully I benefit from Hubs’ decision too; I’ve been in the spot of not knowing if Son is dead or alive, and that is not a fun place to be...

I think the most important thing is to do whatever we can live with. That looks different for each of us.

 

[Blindsided]

My oldest son (30yrs.) who is verbally abusive and often threateningly abusive via e-mails even up until yesterday sent me another e-mail this morning.

I "think" I know the answer to this but want to ask the forum their thoughts. He "says" he has a potential for a 40 hr. week job (which he has NEVER had in his life) but he'd need tolls and gas because it's in the next town. Even with that information he calls me a big fat nosed troglodyte (which I had to look up). Usually he calls me a , whore, shriveled up v*%@*a so he's expanding on his vocabulary.

Even with all this I think, is this the time I won't help him that he'd finally get on his feet and be able to get out of the cold and help himself?

Am I not being realistic or falling back into the "trap"?

I haven't looked at others comments, but here is mine. Never reward bad behavior, period. That is regardless if their is a modicum of truth in what he says. Maybe arrange for an Uber, buy a toll pass (based on where his JOB is located), or stick to the boundaries. Would you let anyone's adult child talk to you the way he does, then feel all warm and fuzzy about giving him money?

I am so sorry you are facing this. They sure know how to manipulate us and unfortunately, they learn to manipulate everyone around them. If he does have a job, how long will he have it if he thinks it's okay to talk to anyone the way he talks to you.

Sending love and light, JayPea.

 

[BusynMember1]

I do care what my kids think of me. That is why this is so hard. I know I'm not supposed to care, but I do.

 

[Crayola13]

The other idea I forgot to mention is there are churches that coordinate with the shelter to give people free bus passes for the month.

When I work at the shelter, not everyone wants to take advantage of these types of services. It's very emotionally taxing for the social workers and volunteers because half of the homeless want help, but the others don't. Most of us will never be able to understand. Their minds are very complicated and over half actually choose to be homeless. Only 20% take full advantage of all the services available and get into supportive housing, job training, etc. They won't give personal information to a social worker and are content to be homeless. They only to go the shelter when the weather is -32. They see no need to live a conventional life. There is only so much we can do for them. It's easy to feel like a failure because they reject every service they are offered.I

Here, the City and the shelters we have are taking so much grief about the homeless problem.

 

[Beta]

But we are responsible for protecting ourselves. That is our responsibility. I want to put what I wrote in another way. What we are addicted to with our family members, who may be our kids, is to their love. To wanting their love, wanting them to love us, wanting to love them. You must look at those emails, believing on some level that this next email will contain what you seek, yearn for, want. Every.single.time. it contains hurtful venom.

So true. I want Josh to love and respect me so badly, and I want to feel the love and affection I once felt for him. So I text him, oftentimes calling his attention to a happy memory from the past, hoping that that will touch something within his mind and heart, and I will see a glimpse of the person he was. Instead, there is only venom and hate. It's beginning to sink in, albeit slowly.

 

[JayPee]

I think that a changed son will not arrive through an email. How he will arrive, I'm not sure.

This statement is so true. We think that this intermittent broken e-mailing or texting communication of some sort is going to somehow fix their hurt, their mental issues, addictions and that all of a sudden one day in an e-mail or text they're going to "show us" they're changed and on board with life.

I'm not sure either, how the changed son will arrive (if ever) but you are right, I don't think through an e-mail. I think that as mothers we will know in our hearts if this has taken place. We will see them face to face and see the clarity in their eyes. We will see that they are present to life. We will know. Maybe it's because everything is so instantaneous in our lives now. An e-mail flies across the world in less than a minute. A text the same thing and so on.

The kind of healing and help my adult sons need and the work it's going to take on their part is going to take time. I feel some healing within myself accepting that. I am not going to check on e-mails in my delete folder. It's compulsive behavior and doesn't make me feel good.

I also, wanted to add that yesterday I mentioned that I never heard my therapist describe that maybe each time I was opening his e-mails was because I wanted to love him and to be loved back. I thought about this last night and it's likely she did tell me this but sometimes in my case, I'm not always open to something initially when I hear it. I'm not ready...I think. Anyways I just felt I needed to say that.

Also, Beta...I'm thinking of you as I know the time is getting closer that your son will be out of your sister-in-laws home. My prayers and thoughts are with you and Josh hoping that God will place the right people in his life to help him on this journey.

 

[Copabanana]

each time I was opening his e-mails was because I wanted to love him and to be loved back. I thought about this last night and it's likely she did tell me this but sometimes in my case, I'm not always open

Here on this forum is way different than therapy. I don't think we are defended like we are in therapy. I am not sure why. It may be because there are so many of us. We open to the group not to one person. Actually, when I write here, I open to myself, first. When I am describing my own life, I write first of all to myself. Only secondarily do I write to you. Unless it's a response. The relationships we have here in a sense are more with ourselves than with any single person.

But I also think that the unique thing here is our shared experience. We are able to put ourselves in each other's shoes, and minds and hearts, because we are living variations of the same thing. Which is different than therapy. There is no self-other split to the same extent as therapy. We overlap. And very few of us feel we know all that much. Except about broken hearts.

Finally, I think that (some) therapists see their role as knowing things that their clients do not, and they see their role as having the prerogative to tell the client what they should believe or know. This has happened to me a number of times, where a therapist who does not know my son (nor much at all about him) has told me horribly painful "truths" about him and then put me down because I would not accept their "truth." My friends who are therapists, who also don't know my son, are also apt to tell me hard truths that they can see and I can't. They don't hesitate, sometimes, one bit, to hurt me. Most everybody here would never want to hurt me unnecessarily. (That's why most of us are so careful not to diagnose, on this forum. It used to be done more. Thank goodness it's not so common anymore.)

I know this is different than what you are expressing about your own therapist but I know I close down too. To ward off pain I can't bear. I do it way less here. I open up way more.

 

[Beta]

By showing him YOUR WORTH by teaching him how to treat you respectfully (or lose the privilege of communication with you) , you are doing so much more: You are giving him a chance to start to value himself. Because the way he treats his Mother must be hurting him. It is a reflection of how he feels about himself, of how little dignity he has left. And every time you give him money, bail him out, allow him to disrespect you, you are confirming to him that he has no dignity, no self respect, no honor. If you can't do it for you, do it for him and give him the chance to fix his own life.

Wow, this really resonated with me. Wise, you put into words so well what I have intuited within myself and just hadn't been able to articulate. This is something I will need to read and re-read to remind myself of when I am tempted to believe (again) that texting Josh will somehow "this time" reach him.
Jaypee--thank you for your kind words and your prayers. Yes, today is his deadline so I'm sure he's either gone by now or leaving. He told my sister he has rented a room. So now he is "out there" but at least my sister and her husband don't have to feel "creeped out" in their own home, which I felt really bad about since I'm the one who asked if he could stay.

It’s a good question why we tolerate the name-calling and cruel words. I certainly used to, and felt like crap for a long time afterwards. I don’t anymore because I don’t communicate at all with him, but Hubs still does and will say it is because (a) he can’t stop hoping Son will “get it” one of these times and (b) he prefers that contact to no contact at all and the worry that goes with it. And truthfully I benefit from Hubs’ decision too; I’ve been in the spot of not knowing if Son is dead or alive, and that is not a fun place to be...

I think Albatross' husband's reasoning is oftentimes why I reach out to Josh and tolerate some of his abuse. "Some contact is better than none." But I know I pay a price for it--in terms of the mental and emotional fall out from being called whatever names he can come up with.

This whole experience we are all going through--it's like a form of mental torment at times.

 

[JayPee]

Here on this forum is way different than therapy. I don't think we are defended like we are in therapy. I am not sure why. It may be because there are so many of us. We open to the group not to one person. Actually, when I write here, I open to myself, first. When I am describing my own life, I write first of all to myself. Only secondarily do I write to you. Unless it's a response. The relationships we have here in a sense are more with ourselves than with any single person.

But I also think that the unique thing here is our shared experience. We are able to put ourselves in each other's shoes, and minds and hearts, because we are living variations of the same thing. Which is different than therapy. There is no self-other split to the same extent as therapy. We overlap. And very few of us feel we know all that much. Except about broken hearts.

Finally, I think that (some) therapists see their role as knowing things that their clients do not, and they see their role as having the prerogative to tell the client what they should believe or know. This has happened to me a number of times, where a therapist who does not know my son (nor much at all about him) has told me horribly painful "truths" about him and then put me down because I would not accept their "truth." My friends who are therapists, who also don't know my son, are also apt to tell me hard truths that they can see and I can't. They don't hesitate, sometimes, one bit, to hurt me. Most everybody here would never want to hurt me unnecessarily. (That's why most of us are so careful not to diagnose, on this forum. It used to be done more. Thank goodness it's not so common anymore.)

I know this is different than what you are expressing about your own therapist but I know I close down too. To ward off pain I can't bear. I do it way less here. I open up way more.

Here’s something I read which is so true and to me speaks to your point and how we share on this forum and for me in Al anon.

“Also from the chalice of our need, we start reaching out for help. That’s because once we’ve been taken apart by life, we are more humble, more open, more willing to both give and receive. We take bigger chances, we speak up. We reveal ourselves. We ask. We breakdown. We accept comfort, Words. A blanket. A meal. In time, we realize something amazing has happened: that the more we reach out to others, the less lonely we feel ourselves. Somehow, even in the midst of our chaos, we are actually feeling loved. And the beautiful thing is that, the more love we need, suddenly the more love we have to give.”

 

[JayPee]

JayPee, I so feel where you are at having lived for my childrens' love and approval for so long.
As I continue to work on myself with the 12 steps in Al-Anon, with daily prayer and meditation and exercise, I am learning that my Higher Power loves and approves of me , and when I place my opinion of myself in the hands of sick or other people in general, I am handing all of my God-given power over to them. All of it.
The opinion of other people is none of my business. My children can see me however they chose.
BUT, they do not get to define me, attack me or call me names. Not to my face. Not anymore. Because I am God's child and as such I am valuable, and loved, and loveable, and I am enough. And when I don't protect THAT , I am teaching others how I will allow them to (mis)treat me. I have started to say NO MORE to this. I stop them, I speak up for myself , and I walk away .

I would respond to the email by stating that I don't accept being called names. Thats it. End of email.

I agree with the others here that his employment or lack thereof , even his lies and manipulations are not your property, not your concern.

If he is smart enough to survive on the streets or living in his car, he is smart enough to figure out how to make this job work IF it is true . But either way, it does not concern you.

By showing him YOUR WORTH by teaching him how to treat you respectfully (or lose the privilege of communication with you) , you are doing so much more: You are giving him a chance to start to value himself. Because the way he treats his Mother must be hurting him. It is a reflection of how he feels about himself, of how little dignity he has left. And every time you give him money, bail him out, allow him to disrespect you, you are confirming to him that he has no dignity, no self respect, no honor. If you can't do it for you, do it for him and give him the chance to fix his own life.

You are a kind and loving soul. Start to give yourself the care and love you wish to lavish on your sons. Nurture yourself and watch yourself grow and feel good about yourself to where you no longer need other humans' approval. When you give to yourself what you seek from your sons, they too will have a chance to heal . Be the example, be the strength, be the love. I am praying for you .

Wise

I keep re-reading this. It’s so uplifting.

 

[Blindsided]

That's my concern. There's always manipulation involved and I never know what the "truth" is. I would never speak to someone the way he speaks to me and then think they'd help me in any way shape and form.

I'm a lot stronger but I suppose this is similar to what I learned from living with an alcoholic. I learned I too was "sick" from the disease so I expect I too am sick from the enabling/triggers/repetitive wrong behaviors/rescue mode/fear/obligation/guilt.

I appreciate your advice and support.

I am learning that when I start self depricating, it is because I have been abused and traumatized. I cant change the past and it dies no good to infuse the future with worry and doubt. All I can do is try to be present in the moment. I can fill that time with regret or fear, but the better choice is to be mindfully aware of all the good and wonder around me. Some days it's harder to find, but it's always there.

 

[WiseChoices]

Worry is praying for the worst possible outcome.

 

[Blindsided]

Here’s something I read which is so true and to me speaks to your point and how we share on this forum and for me in Al anon.

“Also from the chalice of our need, we start reaching out for help. That’s because once we’ve been taken apart by life, we are more humble, more open, more willing to both give and receive. We take bigger chances, we speak up. We reveal ourselves. We ask. We breakdown. We accept comfort, Words. A blanket. A meal. In time, we realize something amazing has happened: that the more we reach out to others, the less lonely we feel ourselves. Somehow, even in the midst of our chaos, we are actually feeling loved. And the beautiful thing is that, the more love we need, suddenly the more love we have to give.”

I love this. Thank you!

 

[Blindsided]

Worry is praying for the worst possible outcome.

Great analogy.

 

[BusynMember1]

The opposite of love is not hate. The opposite of love is fear. You can not love when you fear