Harsh words and a tough order-how do we play this?

[donna723]

CAmom - Maybe I missed this, but what would happen to him if he were to be terminated from the program he is in? Where would he go then? Would he be transferred to some other type of juvenile detention facility? Surely, they wouldn't just allow him to come home! That wouldn't be much of an incentive to stay and do well in the program! Mess up bad enough and you get to GO HOME!

Does he by any chance THINK that if he is booted out of this program, he will then be able to just come home and resume his old life like nothing ever happened? Maybe it's time to discuss with him the potential consequences of being dropped from the program.

Just a thought...

 

[CAmom]

Thanks everyone, I've gotten some great advice.

Donna, there is no way he's coming home. He's got to finish the program...period, which is supposed to take from six to nine months to complete. If he DOES get terminated, it will be because he's wasting time and not progressing through their required steps.

IF he gets terminated, he'll be taken back to Juvenile Hall, and wait there while he goes through the interview process again. Of course, if that happens, he will now have a record of a failed placement, so I would imagine that finding another placement won't be as easy as this one was.

He knows all of this, and he also knows that the next placement could be with a boot-camp or wilderness-type program where life won't be as cushy for him as it is now.

This is what I have a difficult time understanding--he KNOWS this, and he STILL does stupid things that could get him terminated. He's always been his own worst enemy, and he just doesn't get it...

 

[skeeter]

CA mom - please don't take this the wrong way......

..... but are you getting any therapy or support?

It sounds like you just are having such a tough time with what is LEGALLY required of your son. I capitalized LEGALLY because this is NOT your choice, or your son's choice, or whatever. This is the PENALTY he must pay because he broke the law.

I really think it would be helpful to you to have a therapist or someone you can talk with who will help give you coping mechanisms, help you to turn away from enabling, etc.

This is not something you can change, this is not something you can make better. This is something your son MUST work through, as required by law. And if the law says "no contact" then that's what should be. "No gifts", then follow that.

You know this, but gifts, etc. are NOT how to show your son love. My kids would NEVER tell me something isn't "fair". That's because they already know my response; "Life isn't fair, get used to it". They also know what my response is to "you don't love me because you didn't......" My job isn't to be their friend, or buy them things, or make them happy. My job, as a parent, is to raise them to be self sufficent, contributing members of society.

Please, I'm not trying to be harsh, and I can hear your hurt and pain. I'm really think YOU need some help to get through this, and help to get some coping skills for the few months ahead.

 

[Ephchap]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> He's always been his own worst enemy, and he just doesn't get it... </div></div>

CA Mom, you've just described my difficult child, and probably many more here on the board, to a "T".

My son would get a chance or an opportunity, and blow it, knowing full well what the consequence would be. Even as a young child, I could tell him that if he did "x", the consequence would be "z", and he'd look right at me and do it anyway. It could be something as simple as, "Don't touch that; it's hot. If you touch it, you'll get burned." You guessed it. He'd touch it anyway, knowing he'd get burned. It's almost like he did it for the sake of doing it. Testing the waters, so to speak. Unfortunately with the drugging, he learned the hard way. He paid the consequences.

I am thankful for each and every good day my son has had since he turned things around, trust me. It was a rough road, and it wasn't easy. We stayed on him, we forced him into treatment when he was younger, we even signed him in against his will into a psychiatric hospital. Those were some pretty dark times. But I know that I did everything I could to help him. He didn't think so at the time, I'm sure, but he does understand now.

Your son knows you love him. Don't let him manipulate you into feeling badly or into feeling like he's questioning your love for him. You simply tell him that you love him so much and that's why you're doing everything humanly possible to help him help himself.

You sound like you've come to terms with him being in this program, and that you agree with the do to get. Following through by telling him no won't be easy - but again, know in your heart and your head that you're doing it because you do love him so much.

Sending hugs,
Deb

 

[CAmom]

Skeeter, I agree that I could use some counseling, but I really do understand the legal ramifications of what my son is facing now.

One of the four boys involved in the crime that got them all sent into placement is in a group home similar to my son's, although they have much stricter rules, i.e., it was made clear from day one that he could have NO contact with his parents for the first 30 days and would only be considered for an EXTREMELY limited, four-hour home visit after 45 days. On the other hand, the easy child at my son's group home allowed us to visit him the day after he was placed and allows nightly phone calls. Our son was also allowed to visit home for five days after only two weeks.

In many ways, although this has made the past four months not quite as painful for us since we've had access to our son, I'm not sure it's been in any of our best interest. I've thought a few times that my son might have adjusted better and become "immersed" (as his easy child put it) had he been placed in a much stricter setting.

However, be that as it may be, now we have been asked to basically back off, and we have to do so for his sake. We have the greatest trust and confidence in his easy child, and if he thinks this will help our son progress more approiately through his program, then so be it.

 

[CAmom]

Deb, that's the weird thing--when my son was younger, we had to be VERY careful to stay as neutral as possible when we would warn him about consequences because he would invariably OVER-react and become excessively fearful. This changed somewhere along the way, I think around middle school. I'm not sure why.

I do know that our son knows how much we love him. I also know that I do tend to shower him with "stuff," and a lot of it is because it gives me pleasure to do so. I also can see now that that probably wasn't the greatest thing to do in the past and how it certainly isn't helping him now.

Someone mentioned that him receiving a lot of "stuff" is setting him apart from at least some of the other boys. When I read that, I remembered that his easy child said something similar way back when my son first arrived at the home. I was such a mess back then that I guess didn't allow that to sink in.

 

[CAmom]

Well, we got the anticipated call last night. Although I didn't get hit with the BIG guns (abandonment, blah, blah, blah...probably keeping that one in reserve...), he did lay on the "If you and Dad don't visit me this weekend, I don't care if I get kicked out of the program and they take me back to Juvie." Mind you, the last time we visited him, we were there for only an hour when he was gently nudging us out the door so that he could help start lunch so that they could all get going on their mini-golf outing after lunch! So, I don't believe that us not visiting him is the tragedy he's making it out to be...

Now, when he actually WAS in Juvenile Hall for the first and only time, he was so frightened and anxious that he was given medication for it! He couldn't WAIT to get out and in this program and assured the intake coordinator that "I'll be the BEST kid ever!"

Anyway, my response to the "why" was (thanks to you all...), "Honey, Dad and I love you, and we want you to succeed in this program, so we're going to keep doing what your easy child asks of us." To the Juvie thing, "I think that,if you think about it, you might decide that that isn't a good idea, but it's completely up to you."

Now, we have to sit here, biting nails, and HOPE and pray that he doesn't sabatoge himself to "teach us a lesson"--something I think he is VERY capable of doing.

 

[Suz]

Sounds like you handled the phone conversation well. In your shoes I think I might be out to dinner or otherwise occupied when the phone rings tonight. :angel:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Now, we have to sit here, biting nails, and HOPE and pray that he doesn't sabatoge himself to "teach us a lesson"--something I think he is VERY capable of doing. </div></div>

The simple fact is that he might. So today you need to prepare some responses in case he does. Neutral. Calm. Short!

You're on the right track...so, think about what you might say and let's hear what you come up with.

Suz

 

[CAmom]

Suz, that's going to be even tougher--it literally makes me
sick to my stomach with dread and anger to think about visiting him in JH, ESPECIALLY if he ends up there because he blows this program after FOUR months simply because he can't learn to follow a few simple rules and keep his mouth shut!

 

[SunnyFlorida]

It is liberating to throw "pat answers" back to difficult child and let difficult child make the decisions.

Our job was to get them to this point that they can make decisions. Many of our difficult child's on the way though picked up some bad habits like not following rules and deciding that they want to run the world around themselves. This is not compatable with society. An infant? yes, a toddler? to a point, a teen? no way!.

Too often the difficult child finds that they can manipulate school, home, work, friends, everyone who they are associated with. They continue to manipulate until they are stopped. Problem with our difficult child's is that stoppage is sometimes the law which ends in a negative consequence to which the difficult child turns it around and blames us.

It doesn't sound like your difficult child has issues that are preventing him from learning, ie he's not MR, no delays (so to speak). So....if his cognitive ability allows him to learn then he is also able to make choices.

Use the link to see the "pat answers" that Suz gave. The rest of the posters are "right on the money".

Is it hard for us "mommies"? yep, that's our babies out there, our mommy heart hurts when they whine and complain. Our natural instinct is to help. RESIST. :smile:

 

[JJJ]

CA Mom

We have a cardinal rule in our house. No visits in jail, ever. If our kids do something bad enough to go to jail, they can rot. We'll send letters and do phone calls but that is it. I am not a criminal and I will not go to a jail. We even limit visits when hospitalized. At Kanga's first hospitalization we called every day and visited her 6 times in 14 days. She never really engaged in the program. Her 2nd hospitalization was for 7 days and she got 1 visit (for family therapy). We called her the first night and explained that she would need to call us each future night if she wanted to say good night. I know they are ill but because they are mentally ill they need to work harder to make good choices, they aren't excused from making those good choices.

Be strong!! Great first phone call with him. Enjoy some thing fun just for you so you'll have the strength for phone call #2. Come back to this board for support whenever you need it, we'll all be here for you.

 

[DDD]

We did visits with the Juvie placements I attended each Court
hearing when he was a Juvie. I hoped and prayed that there would
never be an occasion when he was over 18 and in trouble. Lordy,
Lordy...I sure did pray for that.

I told him "you need to understand that although we will always
love you and miss you terribly when we can't see you...we will
never visit you in a 'big boy jail' so make sure you change the
way you've been making choices".

He responded "I wouldn't want you or Grandad to come to a jail.
You all don't deserve to even have to visit here, Mama." We have
not visited and he has not asked. We accept phone calls and we
put money in the commissary for socks, sweatshirts or an extra
blanket.

Your son doesn't believe he will be an adult offender. I hope he is right. Sad to say, HE is the only one who can decide. DDD

 

[CAmom]

Sunny, I've been thinking a lot about what you said, the part about no MR or other serious issues to prevent good decision making. And, also, what JJJ said about having to make good choices, despite any mental health issues. I've always wondered, in the past, whether my son just couldn't conform on a consistent basis or simply wouldn't. His easy child told me that he had given him the benefit of the doubt for four months and had come to the conclusion that my son behaves the way he does because he enjoys doing so for the attention it gets him. I'm afraid he may be right. I think, for my son, the consequences have to be over-the-top harsh to make an impact. That, combined with his immaturity, i.e., he can't seem to think past today to see the "big picture" and behave accordingly, doesn't bode well for his progress through this program.

 

[CAmom]

DDD, when my son was in Juvie, he bounced back and forth between
wanting us and his grandparents to visit to not wanting us to. I felt, at the time, that he really needed to feel that we would drop everything to be there for him, despite his current lodgings, although we did draw the line at asking my 80-something-year-old parents to accompany us.

Now, I'm not much feeling that way because I'm starting to believe that it's not so much that, because of his nature, he just can't conform but rather chooses not to in favor of "being myself." And, what's really strange is that he's TOLD me this in so many words several times, but I've never wanted to believe it and felt that he was just blustering. Now, I'm not so sure.

What he hopes to gain from this oppositional behavior, especially in the setting of a group home, I simply can't figure out. I think there's at least some degree of immaturity and wishful thinking in that he thinks the worst simply can't happen to him. in my opinion, it couldn't get much worse than being in a group home with the prospect of being sent back to Juvie in the near future if he doesn't get with it.

 

[everywoman]

"What he hopes to gain from this oppositional behavior, especially in the setting of a group home, I simply can't figure out."

That's just is CAmom---it's not your job to figure this out. It's his to find out that it won't work anymore. He needs to learn that now---before he turns 18 and weekend visits aren't his only worry! The next step is jail. My oldest sister's son, a lifetime difficult child, is in prison for a 15 year stay--this time. They can't even decide when to start wearing their winter coats. There is a certain date they can put them on and not before, regardless of the temp. outside. There are no goodie packages sent. I know when husband's cousin was first arrested, we tried to carry some stuff to him for Christmas, but they wouldn't even let him have any books!

 

[rejectedmom]

CAmom, I am so sorry for your pain. Please take what I am about to say in the compassionate way I mean it. I have walked in your shoes. My son is now in jail because he couldn't or wouldn't obey the cardinal rule. He left the premisis just because he could. I have learned that we cannot save them if they cannot or will not save themselves. It really doesn't matter which is the case because the outcome is the same sad thing. Even if they are uncapable of change due to mental illness if they continue to break rules or get into legal trouble they are going to have socital consequences imposed upon them. Whether it be a MH section of a prison or the general population they are going to pay. Your son was given the opportunity to go to a Residential Treatment Center (RTC) instead of juvie. It was an opportunity for him. It was not about you or your pain. These things need to be kept seperate because the way you are dealing with your pain (sending gifts and frequent visits etc) while good for you is not good for your son. It is hard to switch from buying things for our children to make them feel better
(I call this the boo boo kissig phenomena) to indulging our own needs instead. It isn't selfish to make the switch rather it is healthy. Healthy for you and healthy for him. You do not need to explain every last one of your actions to your son. And you should not accept any disrespect from him. This is his last chance before he gets into the adult system. Your wellmeaning actions are allowing him to blow this opportunity and pin the blame on you. That gives him a guilt free pass and allows him to be angry with you when he fails.

I know I battle the thoughts that if I couldn't do it nobody can. Nobody loved my son more, nobody did more, cared more, sacrificed more for my son than me. I am sure the same is true for you... but the thing is, they would not have arrived at this place in their lives if what we did was effective. don't misunderstand me. This doesn't mean we failed or that we didn't do enough or that we did it all wrong. It just means that our difficult child's are wired differently and they have failed to learn all they need to learn. We lead them but they didn't follow.

Sometimes we have to relinqish control of a situation to get the reinforcing help we need. Fran always says "If you always do what you always did then you will always get what you always got." It is so hard to sit on the sidelines after 18 years in the trenches with our difficult child's. But sometimes it is exactly the agressive action we must take. Notice I say aggressive action for that is what sitting back is for us parents of difficult child's. And that aggressive action is often the harrdest one we will ever perform. -RM

 

[CAmom]

Katmom, you make so much sense. I'm trying very hard to keep telling myself this--at 17 1/2, it really ISN'T my or his dad's job to figure all this out for him. What I'm having to deal with now is that stepping back, at the PO's strong urging, and let this be his "game" now.

Now, I just have to prepare myself for the next stupid thing he does, if he does it, so that I can, hopefully, not get sucked into the drama. It's the fear of what will happen next, if he does continue to behave the way he's behaving, that is the hardest to deal with, such as what happened to your nephew.

 

[CAmom]

RM, I appreciate your words, and I know you're right. I have been doing that "boo-boo-kissing" thing, once again, trying to make everything better for him which makes ME feel better. However, thanks to you all and his easy child, I am able to really hear that now and accept it.

I had begun to feel a bit manipulated before his easy child's phone call. And, it especially became clear to me after I heard about the second smoking incident.

I realize and believe now that there's nothing I can do or say that I haven't already done and said many times in the past to help him set his feet on the right path. It hasn't worked in the past (although I thought that it had), and it won't work any better now. As his easy child said, he's making these bad choices, and he can just as well make good ones, despite what we do or don't do.

You've got it right that sitting back and doing nothing is taking aggressive action, and the HARDEST thing.

Understanding, but biting nails ANYWAY...

 

[donna723]

CAmom – I don’t know if they have programs like this where you live, but … you might ask if there is anything like this available…

I have worked in a Close Security State correctional facility for over twenty years. And although we are not currently doing it, we used to have a program for kids from the various Juvie halls, group homes and wilderness programs to come and spend a day with us so they could see for themselves what life in the “big boy jail” is really like! Our program was in-house, but there is a national program called “Scared Straight” that it was patterned on. Most of them had no idea and thought it would be just like Juvie only with bigger “kids” – NOT! Most of them were genuinely shocked and it was a real awakening for them. It was a very effective way of getting through to them that “This is where you’re heading and you don’t want to be here!”

They would take them on a tour of our compound and the housing units – the “safer” areas but the kids didn’t know that. And our inmates, eager to do their part, would leer and whistle and just generally be obnoxious. One bunch of kids who had a female counselor with them were giggling because they assumed that the hoots and whistles and obscenities were in her honor. The Lieutenant who was taking them around changed a whole lot of attitudes instantly when he said, “You think they’re whistling at HER? They’re whistling at YOU, kid!” Not nice, but very effective. They’d take them down to our High Security building, lock them in cells, and bring them lunch in the little styrofoam trays. Then after they had been in there a few hours and were ready to come out, the staff suddenly got “too busy” for a while to let them out! And they stayed “too busy” until even some of the worst of them were in tears!

When they let them out, they’d bring them up to our conference room where several carefully selected inmates addressed them and answered questions. These guys were all Trustees and very good inmates, but the kids didn’t know that either. And they purposely tried to find the scariest, most threatening looking inmates to do this! The more tattoos the better! And they didn’t pull any punches either with the kids. They told them exactly what it was like to spend your life living in a prison, and how if they ended up there or not was entirely up to them!

It didn’t work with all of them long-term, but with some of them it did, so it was well worth it. Some of the programs required the kids to write letters to the prison about what they thought about the “tour”. One kid wrote, “You didn’t have to bring me in there to scare me! I was scared on the bus!” :eek: You might ask if anything like this is around in your area, or suggest it if it’s not. Your boy would be a very good candidate.

 

[Merris]

As a fellow "mommy" and "boo boo kisser", my advice to you is to fake it. I know how hard it is to detach and I know how many tears you've shed over your only child, but you can bite your lip on the phone and cry when the call is over. You KNOW what the right things to do are, it's doing them that is so hard.

It's very obvious you love your difficult child. Let him face the consequences of his actions without your input. Let him stand on his own 2 feet.

If only I could listen to my own advice! :smile:

Merris