Kids can not be diagnosis'd BiPolar (BP), nor Mood-Disorder...

[pepperidge]

Totoro,

I am so sorry your psychiatrist is such a jerk. What a disappointment, after all you have invested.

Don't know what advice to give you. Sometimes medication washes are a good thing, if a child has been on a number of drugs that haven't helped. Helps you rediscover the wonder that is your child (lol). Do you have the sense that Lamictal is doing anything? I have to say, I have usually know within a week or two whether a drug was helping or hurting. And my kids have each trialed about 15 by now I think...

On the stims, my own experience is that it has greatly helped my oldest (who has bipolar or something close to it, and benefits greatly from Lamictal). He is a different person when he takes Adderall (good). But alone, the rebound was really awful--he got very aggressive and nasty. Without it, he is excessively silly, immature, defiant. The mood stablizers have done a great job on his depression and helped his anxiety, but the stims also work miracles. Not to say they will be good for K, but they do have the advantage that you know within a day or two whether they are worth keeping. My youngest (who doesn't probably have bipolar) but would appear to have classic impulsive, inattentive ADD, reacts very badly to them. Within an hour, they made him whiny, anxious, obssessive, you name it. It was bad.
If you are going to trial them I hope the doctor gave you the lowest dose--and not long acting!!

I hope you can manage to find a place that believes in childhood bipolar--or at least is willing to medicate along those lines. even when we did find a good psychiatrist, who had a well thought protocol of the order in which he wanted to try various medications, it still took us about 4-5 to find the right ones.

I am so sorry. You must be so bummed out. It shouldn't have to be this hard.

Hugs

 

[totoro]

I am not going to get into what the FDA regs are... We Are talking about BiPolar (BP)... And we are talking about a psychiatrist who does not agree that a child can be diagnosis'd with BiPolar (BP)... I don't need to know what the fed regs are thanks though.

I am sure he could care less. because he thinks what he thinks... and I think what I think...

 

[dreamer]

Totoro- I am so sorry this doctor was not the answer. Many many hugs to you, you know....we were told that very thing here for years and years. it caused us quite a bit of trouble over the years.

Uncheerleader- I see you are in IL. Seems to me chances are very good that if you are in northern IL, that many years ago? It would not have made much difference ----there simply was not much in way of help for kids like our .......it was simply awful.

 

[meowbunny]

I can remember getting into a very serious argument with my psychiatric professor in college. He said kids couldn't be bipolar. I asked him what happened? Does someone just magically become bipolar at 18 even though there were years of history showing mania and depression? I never got a satisfactory answer to that. So, I guess people take some magic pill to become bipolar as adults since they can't have it as kids. In other words, you have my sympathy. My argument and my professor's small mind caused me a lower grade. The blindness by your psychiatrist could be harmful to your child.

At least he was willing to try some medications. Some psychiatrists won't even do that because of this idiotic belief. I do agree that BiPolar (BP) is over-diagnosis'ed today but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I wish he'd validated your feelings more. You deserve at least that.

I wish psychiatry were more of an exact science and that more was known about the mind. It would make it easier to get better diagnoses and treatment plans. It would open the minds of people who are the "specialists." It would help families in turmoil and pain.

(((((TOTORO)))))

 

[totoro]

pepper-
I don't know if the Lamictal is doing anything at this point. She has been on it for almost a year!!!
I don't mind trying a stimulant if she was semi stable... but he wants her off of the Lamictal, he doesn't like those medications for kids... and since he doesn't believe in Early Onset Bi-Polar (EOBP)... she doesn't need it. I would put her on a stimulant after a MS or AP maybe...

Maybe as a last resort by itself... am I at my last resort????

 

[flutterbee]

That he doesn't believe that a mood disorder can exist in a child is bad enough. But to want to try a medication that you've already tried with disastrous results (tenex) would make me run. I hate that 'try it and see what happens approach' that so many seem to be willing to take with our kids; it seems so callous. Would he be willing to do that to himself if it caused the kind of reaction K had to it? I doubt it.

And anxiety causing hallucinations?!! Not many kids have more anxiety than my kiddo and we've never experienced anything near hallucinations like K deals with. It would seem to me - thinking logically - that mania is causing hallucinations which is throwing her anxiety sky high.

(((((hugs))))

You had such high hopes. I'm so sorry for you and for K.

 

[pepperidge]

Have you tried Tenex or Clonidine?

my youngest had a paradoxical reaction to Tenex--we tried it for a week, made him very cranky and irritable. Tried it again a year later for a couple weeks, also seemed to make him more irritable, but he also started to get extremely aggressive to the point where we were locking ourselves in the bedroom to prevent oursevles from being kicked. The reaction went on for about two weeks or so after we d/c the medication. Needless to say, its not my favorite medication (right up there with Trileptal and Lexapro for my oldest), but it does work for some.

If I were in your shoes, I would want something to try to address the underlying issues, then if you needed something like Clonidine for sleep. I can understand why you thinking that it is not the answer.

 

[totoro]

Pepper~This is from my original post...
"He wants to put K back on either Tenex or Clonidine... then a stimulant... take her off of Lamictal.
I said what about the Tenex inducing Rages, depression, aggression, violence, no sleep??? He said well we can try it and wait to if it goes away... But lets think about Clonidine then... I said well what about Clonidine knocking her out???
He said well we can quarter it??? I said UH how??? I guess I can try that!!!
I then said Ok, So if we were to try the Clonidine,"


So as you can see... We only had her on the Tenex for 8 days, psychiatrist3 left it up to us to Difficult Child it!!! She was out of control, much like you said, if she was older, I would have been scared... I kept asking him if it would stop? He was like well, we don't really know if this is part of her Disorder or the medications... WHAT???
The clonidine made her fall over into her food the very first night she took it, I thought she died! Seriously... I took her pulse, this was 1/2 a tab, it happened 2 more nights... same response from psychiatrist3, stop it if you want...

UGH

 

[totoro]

We use Clonidine now as a PRN, it kind of knocks her out, just makes her groggy, but when it wears off she gets amped up and is up then... we told him this... OH well... and this is on 1/2 tab still

 

[navineja]

I don't have a lot of experience with the BiPolar (BP) stuff (except for my 10 yr old nephew), but it truly sounds like you need to seek out a new doctor who will actually listen to YOU and not just push a bunch of already tried and failed medications on your already struggling child. Too many docs (in all fields) fail to listen to the patient or parent, leading to an increase in problems so often. Put on your armor and go fight for your baby! We are all with you. GO, MOM! (I would put a little warrior mom here, but I still can't figure out how to on these new boards.)

 

[BusynMember]

I don't need guidelines to know that mood disorders in kids exists. I was a very depressed child. I can trace it back to four years old and my mother thinks I was "different" as an infant--I always cried, couldn't be soothed, and had no physical problems. At age thirteen, I went into such a bad depression that I couldn't even function. I remember I didn't bother trying to make an effort to smile because I didn't have the energy. I did nothing. I went to school, couldn't concentrate, didn't try. Came home, did nothing, too depressed to do homework, didn't care if I flunked. I cried to my mom at night that I felt "depressed and nervous." I remember it well. What would that psychiatrist call it? ADHD? I have either bipolar II or the more popular version of a mood disorder called Mood Disorder Spectrum. They are pretty much treated the same way, only, since I get more depressed than hypomanic, I need an antidepressant. My advice is to dump the doctor. I don't have a clue why anyone with a scientific background can think that at ten you can't be clinically depressed, but magically at eighteen you can. They're just wrong--and in my opinion they make no sense.

 

[SaraT]

Even if this psychiatrist doesn't believe in mood disorder/BiPolar (BP) in kids, he should still treat the symptoms! Going bckwards to medications you have already tried is rediculious, in my humble opinion.

My difficult child is on Lamictal and doing much better. All ADHD stims made her completely uncontrolable.

I would be running away from this psychiatrist as fast as I could.

I am sorry for all the trouble you are having. been there done that and it is no fun.

Here is the armorand a hug.

SaraT

 

[mrscatinthehat]

I am so sorry you are going through this. I have to say I don't understand how they can say an illness doesn't exist in children. I have been there. Once with and Residential Treatment Center (RTC) for difficult child 1. Was horrid that they wouldn't listen.

There are other things that professionals won't diagnose until older. My question is do they say that about diabetes, cancer, etc. No, symptoms are symptoms and then you diagnose what it is and treat the symptoms. Shouldn't matter the age.

I am so angry for you. Many hugs on your continuation of this battle.

Beth

 

[totoro]

Well MWM~
He asked me about my childhood and hey I was much the same way as you... I hung on my Mom, cried, I ripped my hair out in clumps... night terrors...
not a mood disorders...not you either MWM!!!
It was most likely ADHD, Anxiety or Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) like symptoms!!! and we needed his medication regimen and more parenting mods... (which I did) but, and then we miraculously got Bipolar Disorder one day!!! But much later... My 72hr hold at 15yo I don't know if that started qualifying me yet in his eyes???
Yeah and he gave me the 3rd degree on my symptoms. But you know how it is when someone is throwing questions at you out of left field?

"How is your sleep, how is your spending, how was your schooling, what do you mean, I see, hmm," and he acted like no answer was good enough...

And afterwards I had all of these other answers come flooding to my head... I was thinking of since I have been kind of stable. And part of me is like i don't have to prove anything to this jerk!!!

But he said how is your sleep, do you stay awake because you WANT to or because you can't sleep!!!
I did not even mention how my twenties I stayed up for days, and then he acts like sleeping for 4-5 hours is enough... and waking up all night is ok, I take Trezadone!!!
I have read enough, to know it says quality of sleep also!!!

He also said my spending... he asked me how much... so I tell him, he asked me if I put my family into debt?
I said not now...

But in my 20's I was living on the credit card... and kept spending... and I still have moments... I wanted to go back in there and set him straight...
It was just bizarre the few things he focused on.

Not all of my risky behaviors... not all of my other things...


And K he didn't look at her sleep at all... we kept telling him about her restless and night terrors... he said well it seem like she sleep OK. I said well she wakes all night. What about her quality of sleep, she wakes with black under her eyes...

Nope because that is the BiPolar (BP) books...

LAME

 

[BusynMember]

I learned not to trust doctors if it doesn't ring true. Doctors can be wrong about anything. My friend went to a doctor for a lump in her breast and he said it was "nothing." He even looked at her mammo and said "nothing." Two years later she went to somebody else. It is an aggressive form of breast cancer. If I went to a doctor with symptoms of depression so deep that I never wanted to wake up again and he told me I had ADHD, I'd move on. There are people out there who are more updated and can help. When I was thirteen, I was so scared of what was wrong with me, because I knew something bad was going on, that I looked up "mental illness" in the Encyclopedia (remember days before computers..lol)? I diagnosed myself years before I got the diagnosis which, at the time, was manic depression. However, now there is a school of thought that mood disorders are NOT all or nothing--bipolar or just depression. There are so many "in-betweeners" and I think that's me because I have had debilitating depression with a few hypomanic highs. My psychiatrist calls it Mood Disorder Spectrum, which I love. Essentially they are the same--moodswings that debilitate your functioning. My psychiatrist believes I had early onset. I do too. If it doesn't feel right, tell the doctor good-bye and find a better one. Good luck

 

[DammitJanet]

Toto...

I am furious for you! I have heard the whole "kids cant have bipolar" thing for years. I was so hoping things had changed by now. When Cory was little I kept getting told he was ADHD/ODD but the medications didnt work quite right and all the professionals kept saying...there is something else going on too but we dont quite know what it is. Hmmmm. At 13 he got the diagnosis after some really eye-opening happenings in a psychiatric hospital.

I know that they didnt diagnosis BiPolar (BP) when I was young and I wish they had. Heck nothing but ADHD was dxd back then and it was called something else. I ended up being called incorrigible. Nice.

I have often argued the idiocy of saying something cannot be dxd until a person hits 18. Ok...what...do they get a nice pretty box on their birthday and open it and suddenly they have this disorder? Makes no sense to me. It cannot make scientific sense. No way. What was different the day before they were 18 and the day after? Nothing.

And mental illness isnt genetic? Oh please! The man should meet my family. My mom was crazy as hell...probably schizo-affective, Im bipolar 1 and borderline and Cory is bipolar and ASPD. So what...did I go to the store and buy some weird genes? Is it all just a coincidence that this runs in my family? I dont think so.

Run, dont walk. Go on the other bipolar boards and look for recommendations of psychiatrists who treat many kids with mood disorders. Even that weirdo who claims there are 6 forms of ADHD and one of them looks oddly like bipolar says to treat it with the bipolar medications.

 

[Lothlorien]

I'm sure, given the time, he would likely blame you for some of difficult child's behaviors too. been there done that with a therapist and a developmental neurologist when my difficult child was three. I won't go back to either of them and would likely knock either of them into the next century, given the chance. Find another doctor. You aren't stuck with this one. Obviously he's established his "opinions", but they aren't based on standards set by the national guidelines and literature. If you aren't getting the needed results, then go elsewhere.

 

[Marguerite]

Totoro, I know you feel abandoned by this doctor but hang in there a little longer. He may have something positive, once he's wrapped his head around the problems.

You asked him a specific question, he told you his views. But in the way he questioned you,I think he may have been gathering information (and NOT feeding back to you a sudden change of opinion, because he's still sorting out his own view). Hewas honest with you about what he thought.

He was right when he said BiPolar (BP) in children is diagnosed far more in the US than in Australia, say. Are we wrong or right in Australia? I don't know, although I do worry when I see cases of kids for whom the more standard diagnosis doesn't seem to fit...

The thing is, he didn't just say, "It's not BiPolar (BP), go away, go find someone else," he seemed to me to be digging to find an answer that can really help here.

You think he's wrong - he may be. But he strikes me as a doctor who is going to keep looking and digging.

You have a number of possibilities arising out of this.

You could just leave, go find someone else. This will not change this doctor's views one iota, and the next family to cross his path will go through the same experience. Not your problem maybe...


Or you could stick it out with him, answer his questions, wait for him to catch up to where you are. In the process, he will learn.

DOctors are always learning (or should be). I had a specialist who I felt was really good (top in his field) but we didn't always agree. I often put my concerns in writing, he would discuss them with me. He was VERY against complementary medicine and felt that it just exploits patients to no positive end. Many of his patients simply didn't tell him when they saw a chiropractor or a herbalist, which is sill because doctors NEED to know. So I told him everything. WHen he said, "your reflexologist is ripping you off, it's nonsense," I pointed out that she didn't charge me at all, and I also told him when she had red flags for a health problem (such as my liver) and amazingly, the blood tests he then ordered confirmed it (and I wasn't jaundiced, so she couldn't have known).

My specialist was a top notch investigator with a blind spot in some areas. I stuck it out with him and educated him; he eventually conceded that there ARE benefits to alternative modalities which he had not allowed for, even if those benefits are purely psychological (or social). He began by trying to treat my illness; he finished by always considering me as part of a family unit with complex issues needing to be considered in the mix. He's retired now, but he still lectures medical students and I hope is passing to them, the need to consider the broader picture.

If this doctor suggests something you have already tried with bad results, then ask him to convince you that you will not have these bad results again. Also ask him to tell you what to do in case you DO have the same bad results. Sometimes doctors do not consider the ramifications. For example, mother in law has a problem with swallowing, perhaps due to her myasthenia gravis. The gastroenterologist wanted her to have endoscopy, but to do so she would have to stop taking her blood thinners, and also endure a general anaesthetic. She was understandably reluctant to do this, so she spoke to ANOTHER specialist, her neurologist. He is thinking from a different point of view and said, "we can get the same info more easily."

There are other ways and means.

A good doctor is not necessarily one you will agree with. He is one who will listen to you and talk it through with you.

The more you go up the specialist ladder, the harder it is to find a good 'fit' with a doctor you get on with, who is also competent. Bedside manner is a luxury we often can't afford, at this level.

Totoro, this bloke may be wrong in every area, or only some. Or none. I can't tell you, because I'm not a doctor. But he may also be one of the best, in so many other ways.
Bide your time, if you can. If you do feel, after careful considered opinion, that he simply isn't answering your concerns, then move on. But if there is a chance that he can either change his mind after learning more about you all, or perhaps pulling a rabbit out of a hat in some other way, then this could be the best thing that's happened.

Right now he seems like a disaster. It may not be so. But go carefully, tell him every concern you have and ask for reassurance. If he starts floundering because he can't help, then ask him if this means he may need to revise his views. 'Never ever' is SUCH a major statement, especially medically.

Marg

 

[susiestar]

Oh Totoro, what an IDIOT this psychiatrist seems to be. And after all you went through, to try to put her back on medications she clearly had bad reactions too. It just seems like the Twilight Zone!!

YOU and husband know her best. You are the ones with her through ALL the problems. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE follow your instincts.

If you need it, I know a good psychiatrist in Cinci - she did great testing and hit my difficult child right on the nose. Was very very helpful and understanding. I can send her name, she is at Children's in Cinci. I know, through various group sessions, that she had patients with mood disorder and bipolar.

This seems to be one of those people who are just for decoration. I wish he was not.

Maybe he could just have playdates with K and let a REAL doctor do the medical treatment??

Sending hugs for all of you!

Susie

 

[totoro]

I just wrote to psychiatrist1... who alot of people know of... she is on the advisory board of CABF... anywho. She is livid... she is sad, she is not surprised. She is just finishing up her book she said it is covering just this topic!!! She also reminded me not to give up hope and that hopefully when the DSM is revised she is helping and pushing for revisions... For 2012... Her words were "ossified Doctors like this" to true...
Her book is due May 15th... Maybe I will mail it to him!!!

Marg, I understand what you are saying. But I am not young nor new to this game. I have enough people in the medical field in my family... lots of nurses who have been through the Doctor treatment... I have taken enough classes to know a little about the mind and body. Plus I know my daughter, I also have the added bonus of growing up in a family of Mental Illness and having Bipolar myself... I know my daughter needs more than ADHD treatment. She is not going to get that from someone who is convinced that is what she has.
I am not even saying it is just medications... But I need someone who can open their mind... He clearly could not. It was obvious from our conversation. I have been right about all 3 previous psychiatrist's so far... I loved our first one ... so far she was the only one who could be held accountable for her treatments.
I have changed my whole life for this kid... It has nothing to do with me being inflexible or unwilling to adapt. He was not willing to see anything else but his side, he did not see her... even though he spent time with her.