SuZir
Well-Known Member
I wasn't really talking about few beers when I said relapse. I meant more like constant drinking benders. I don't know if it is a local phenomenon, but at least here the very common type of alcoholism seems to be a one, there a person either isn't drinking at all or is drinking compulsively some period of time (often until they physically can't any more.) They may think they are taking just one or two beers but after that they may drink a week or two and be a whole time drunk, miss work etc. A typical relapse for alcoholics I know are like that. And I think treatment is working, if an alcoholic gets back to the wagon after relapses and those relapses get shorter and times between them get longer.
I live in the country there we mostly use ICD-10. So for example alcoholism is defined like this https://web.archive.org/web/20060427015733/http://www.mentalhealth.com/icd/p22-sb01.html But of course it is often difficult to say, who is alcoholic and who is not. For example my dad is a difficult case. He has certainly been alcoholic according to ICD-10 in several times in his life. Still he also have had several, long periods of time (I'm talking about years and even decades) when he has been mostly social drinker and in control of his drinking. He has been treated at least three times for delirium that I know and hospitalised because of alcohol poisoning many more times. He has been also kicked out of Minnesota treatment centre for drinking (and getting others to drink) and gone through it twice (and started to drink right after it again.) But as I said, he has also had long periods in his life, when he has used alcohol and had a control over it. He is also currently doing so. He has also dabbled with all kinds of drugs, but I'm not sure if he has ever been really addicted to those.
BusynMember
Well-Known Member
I think we all have our own definitions. I like the AA definition, which does not say you are addicted physically.
"If alcohol is causing you problems in your life you are an alcoholic."
Whether it means addiction physically or that for whatever reason one keeps drinking and drinking even when he almost dies or loses his job and family or ends up in jail etc...that is enough for me to think the person needs all out treatment and to stop drinking. Not all, what I define as alcoholics, drink every day of their lives....some do weekend binges...some are functional alcoholics and can look ok while in public then they pass out at home. The same goes for any compulsive behavior, which I refer to as an addiction...pot, other drugs, gambling, the internet, anything. If a behavior of yours is ruining your life and you can't stop doing it, in my opinion you are addicted and need help. HOWEVER, while gambling is horrible, you don't get physical withdrawals from it. You do from alcohol if you are in the later stages of addiction. Alcohol can also kill you. I've known several people who died from a failing liver due to alcohol abuse.
Whatever one calls it, in my opinion it's splitting hairs. If something is hurting the person, and the person keeps doing it and can't stop on his own, he/she needs treatment. In alcohol's case you may die young and sick if you drink too much.
That's really all I have to say about it. I do think there are various ways to quit and that sometimes you need medical help if you are having withdrawals. There is no one universal method that helps all people from self-harm. It is an individual journey. Whatever works, do it!
"If alcohol is causing you problems in your life you are an alcoholic."
Whether it means addiction physically or that for whatever reason one keeps drinking and drinking even when he almost dies or loses his job and family or ends up in jail etc...that is enough for me to think the person needs all out treatment and to stop drinking. Not all, what I define as alcoholics, drink every day of their lives....some do weekend binges...some are functional alcoholics and can look ok while in public then they pass out at home. The same goes for any compulsive behavior, which I refer to as an addiction...pot, other drugs, gambling, the internet, anything. If a behavior of yours is ruining your life and you can't stop doing it, in my opinion you are addicted and need help. HOWEVER, while gambling is horrible, you don't get physical withdrawals from it. You do from alcohol if you are in the later stages of addiction. Alcohol can also kill you. I've known several people who died from a failing liver due to alcohol abuse.
Whatever one calls it, in my opinion it's splitting hairs. If something is hurting the person, and the person keeps doing it and can't stop on his own, he/she needs treatment. In alcohol's case you may die young and sick if you drink too much.
That's really all I have to say about it. I do think there are various ways to quit and that sometimes you need medical help if you are having withdrawals. There is no one universal method that helps all people from self-harm. It is an individual journey. Whatever works, do it!
lovemysons
Well-Known Member
Don't know why I can't delete my post on this thread...I accidentally posted to two threads and only meant to post on the Trading addictions post.
Nancy can you help me out please.
Thanks,
LMS
Nancy can you help me out please.
Thanks,
LMS
I read an interesting book lately and it contained a chapter about the success of the AA program. According to the book (and for the life of me I cannot remember the title), the success of AA has nothing to do with religion, or specialized knowledge, or even the "12 steps" in particular. The program succeeds because most human beings are two things: social animals and creatures of habit.
Usually, people who drink or abuse drugs do it with others who also drink and/or use drugs. Most people were introduced to drugs or alcohol by a friend or family member. Drinking and using therefore has a social aspect to it. We don't use the term "peer pressure" when we speak of adults - but it is a form of peer pressure, nonetheless. When our peers are drinking, smoking, getting high - we want to be included.
Also - like it or not - we all like to stay in a comfortable rut. Habit is easy. We don't think about it. Therefore, if we always have a cigarette with dinner, and now we want to quit smoking - we don't just have to break the addiction to nicotine - we have to break the habit of smoking with dinner. The habit is part of the addiction.
The success of AA is due to the two-step process of introducing the addict to a new social circle - PLUS introducing a new habit to replace the act of drinking or getting high. If one attends regular meetings - the social pressure of fitting into the group is a good tool to reinforce sobriety. Additionally - the "buddy system" gives the addict a partner to call when in crisis instead of turning to drugs or alcohol.
This is the same idea with programs like Weight Watchers. They support you with a group of like-minded people and suggest alternatives to poor dietary choices and stress-eating.
Obviously - if someone is not very social, or does not feel they have anything in common with others in the AA group - then this two-step system will not work for them.
Usually, people who drink or abuse drugs do it with others who also drink and/or use drugs. Most people were introduced to drugs or alcohol by a friend or family member. Drinking and using therefore has a social aspect to it. We don't use the term "peer pressure" when we speak of adults - but it is a form of peer pressure, nonetheless. When our peers are drinking, smoking, getting high - we want to be included.
Also - like it or not - we all like to stay in a comfortable rut. Habit is easy. We don't think about it. Therefore, if we always have a cigarette with dinner, and now we want to quit smoking - we don't just have to break the addiction to nicotine - we have to break the habit of smoking with dinner. The habit is part of the addiction.
The success of AA is due to the two-step process of introducing the addict to a new social circle - PLUS introducing a new habit to replace the act of drinking or getting high. If one attends regular meetings - the social pressure of fitting into the group is a good tool to reinforce sobriety. Additionally - the "buddy system" gives the addict a partner to call when in crisis instead of turning to drugs or alcohol.
This is the same idea with programs like Weight Watchers. They support you with a group of like-minded people and suggest alternatives to poor dietary choices and stress-eating.
Obviously - if someone is not very social, or does not feel they have anything in common with others in the AA group - then this two-step system will not work for them.
Daisy thank you for posting that. Dr. Bob and Bill W who by the way lived in a city about 30 minutes from me, founded AA for those very reasons. They realized they were social beings and it was easier to stop drinking with someone else and to stay sober with others who also wanted to stay sober.They were remarkable men and their group has proven to work for many many people. It is recommended by the medical community who understand they don't yet have a better way.
Nancy
Nancy
Incredibly interesting and thoughtful posts
(I just thought I'd express my apologies again for the upset caused, it definitely wasn't my intention and there was a degree to which I might have been venting)
I think I'm very much on the same page as Suzir; the reason this is so is that
(a) The deity-based approach of AA did turn me off quite a lot, being an atheist (and in a country where lack of belief is prevalent), and also their opposition to using rx to help a person stay off illicit substances
(b) When I did get "clean", you might say in very abstract, intellectual terms I did want to stop using... on the other hand, I did't actually want to give up what heroin gave to me, which is the "makes everything okay" effect of it in emotional and anxiety terms
Even though deep down I didn't really want to give up that much, maintenance rx (suboxone) did work in the sense that I stayed clean for 4 years, and when I did relapse it only lasted a month or so and I got back on the wagon very quickly
Having had two short relapses since I gave up when I was much younger, I can't say that being on suboxone has been 100% effective, but it's been effective *enough* to allow me to get on with my life, and recover very quickly when I did relapse (to the point that no-one except my GP/MD noticed that I'd actually relapsed).
If a particular method works then I am all in favour of it; I think that, as Suzie pointed out, what also turned me off was the implication of, "We'll never let you live this down, you'll always be an addict, you can't even drink alcohol" (even though it was never my drug of choice).
The fact that I don't have to define myself, my personality, as being an addict, is something that gives me a lot of strength. If I felt like I was tainted, or damaged goods, as AA often seems to imply, then I think I would find it a lot more difficult to get on with my life. Also what Suzir said re relapses, sometimes it feels as though AA/NA implies that if you relapse then you're back at square one, whereas the way I see it a short relapse, successfully dealt with, I'm still much older, more mature, I'm still at law school and moving forward with my life, etc.
No one size fits all, but I really hope that no particular treatment option (rehab, AA, maintenance) should preclude the patient from seeking any other form of treatment at the same time if it works for them. Also I should keep in mind that I think opioid/heroin addiction does have many more treatment options than stimulant addiction due to the existence of maintenance drugs
(I just thought I'd express my apologies again for the upset caused, it definitely wasn't my intention and there was a degree to which I might have been venting)
I think I'm very much on the same page as Suzir; the reason this is so is that
(a) The deity-based approach of AA did turn me off quite a lot, being an atheist (and in a country where lack of belief is prevalent), and also their opposition to using rx to help a person stay off illicit substances
(b) When I did get "clean", you might say in very abstract, intellectual terms I did want to stop using... on the other hand, I did't actually want to give up what heroin gave to me, which is the "makes everything okay" effect of it in emotional and anxiety terms
Even though deep down I didn't really want to give up that much, maintenance rx (suboxone) did work in the sense that I stayed clean for 4 years, and when I did relapse it only lasted a month or so and I got back on the wagon very quickly
Having had two short relapses since I gave up when I was much younger, I can't say that being on suboxone has been 100% effective, but it's been effective *enough* to allow me to get on with my life, and recover very quickly when I did relapse (to the point that no-one except my GP/MD noticed that I'd actually relapsed).
If a particular method works then I am all in favour of it; I think that, as Suzie pointed out, what also turned me off was the implication of, "We'll never let you live this down, you'll always be an addict, you can't even drink alcohol" (even though it was never my drug of choice).
The fact that I don't have to define myself, my personality, as being an addict, is something that gives me a lot of strength. If I felt like I was tainted, or damaged goods, as AA often seems to imply, then I think I would find it a lot more difficult to get on with my life. Also what Suzir said re relapses, sometimes it feels as though AA/NA implies that if you relapse then you're back at square one, whereas the way I see it a short relapse, successfully dealt with, I'm still much older, more mature, I'm still at law school and moving forward with my life, etc.
No one size fits all, but I really hope that no particular treatment option (rehab, AA, maintenance) should preclude the patient from seeking any other form of treatment at the same time if it works for them. Also I should keep in mind that I think opioid/heroin addiction does have many more treatment options than stimulant addiction due to the existence of maintenance drugs
BusynMember
Well-Known Member
in my opinion it's not necessary to drink to live anywhere. It's a personal choice. I really don't see the big deal it is in some circles. Not everyone shares that belief.
No it isn't necessary to drink to live, but it's enough a part of certain cultures (Britain, Germany, Australia etc) that not drinking is seen as very unusual, even suspect... in "the City" (in London, that is, the financial industry, law firms, certain insurance conglomerates), it's very hard to get on if you don't, it would immediately raise questions about you... equally, no one in my family has had alcohol problems so not being at least a moderate drinker of alcohol would raise questions.
I think this makes more sense for people who come from Europe or Britain or former British colonies other than the US.
R
MWM my easy child is totally against drinking. I don't know if that comes from watching her sister make a wreck out of her life or if she's afraid she may become an alcoholic or she just doesn't like what it does to people and doesn't want to be around it. But it's very hard for her to find social events that don't revolve around drinking in some manner. And it's almost impossible for her to meet a guy who doesn't drink or have drinking a big part of their life. We've tried to help her understand most people drink responsibly and there is no harm inhaving a drink or two and it can even be enjoyable as long as you are not an alcoholic, but she is still against it. I wish it was easier for young people to say they don't drink and have it respected.
I remember when I was newly married and all my husband's friends drank to drunken state. I would have two drinks and that's all because it gave me a headache and I also saw my father drunk all the time and hated it. One female friend mocked me and said "you'll grow up some day." I still remember that. Guess what...she turned into an alcoholic, got divorced and lost her job and house.
Nancy
I remember when I was newly married and all my husband's friends drank to drunken state. I would have two drinks and that's all because it gave me a headache and I also saw my father drunk all the time and hated it. One female friend mocked me and said "you'll grow up some day." I still remember that. Guess what...she turned into an alcoholic, got divorced and lost her job and house.
Nancy
T
toughlovin
Guest
I do think drinking is a big part of our culture, especially in young people. In high school the major parties etc all involve drinking.... my easy child is not into that and she does have a good group of friends where drinking is not central at all but she also has a very good sense of self and like Nancys daughter has seen what drug use can do so she wants to steer clear.
I think as you get older it gets easier to not drink... I am not a big drinker although i am not a total teatoaller.... and will have a drink now and then. If we go to a party or something I may have a glass of wine that lasts all night or even drink water but alcohol is not a major thing in our group of friends really.
So although I agree it is a choice and very doable I think it is all around us and if you like to drink but are choosing not to, I could see how tempting it would be.
TL
I think as you get older it gets easier to not drink... I am not a big drinker although i am not a total teatoaller.... and will have a drink now and then. If we go to a party or something I may have a glass of wine that lasts all night or even drink water but alcohol is not a major thing in our group of friends really.
So although I agree it is a choice and very doable I think it is all around us and if you like to drink but are choosing not to, I could see how tempting it would be.
TL
Good points Nancy and TL.
I must confess, I really don't want to give up drinking, it's something I enjoy in moderation, but I can see how for many an addict it would be intolerable for them to have to drink in moderation, that the "in moderation" part isn't really realistic. I think I'm both at a part of my career and my life that it wouldn't work to give it up; "going for a pint", as the Brits are so fond of saying, is something really ingrained in the culture, even more than in Australia (as much as the latter has a reputation for a drinking culture).
I would even venture that there's a degree of selfishness there; I enjoy drinking alcohol, I don't want to have to go without at this point in my life. Perhaps in the same way that many an addict respond differently to different forms of treatment, it could be said some can deal with moderate consumption of alcohol, and many can't.
It reminds me of a particular case mentioned to me by a psychiatrist friend here in London; a certain patient always tended to drink to excess on weekdays, he would find himself in a pub after work getting drunk, but on weekends he had no problems just having a glass or two of burgundy with his wife. In the end, the treatment was to have his wife supervise him taking disulfiram on sunday through thursday nights, meaning he could not take alcohol mondays to fridays, but could still enjoy drinking saturdays and when they had friends around on sunday for lunch.
R
I must confess, I really don't want to give up drinking, it's something I enjoy in moderation, but I can see how for many an addict it would be intolerable for them to have to drink in moderation, that the "in moderation" part isn't really realistic. I think I'm both at a part of my career and my life that it wouldn't work to give it up; "going for a pint", as the Brits are so fond of saying, is something really ingrained in the culture, even more than in Australia (as much as the latter has a reputation for a drinking culture).
I would even venture that there's a degree of selfishness there; I enjoy drinking alcohol, I don't want to have to go without at this point in my life. Perhaps in the same way that many an addict respond differently to different forms of treatment, it could be said some can deal with moderate consumption of alcohol, and many can't.
It reminds me of a particular case mentioned to me by a psychiatrist friend here in London; a certain patient always tended to drink to excess on weekdays, he would find himself in a pub after work getting drunk, but on weekends he had no problems just having a glass or two of burgundy with his wife. In the end, the treatment was to have his wife supervise him taking disulfiram on sunday through thursday nights, meaning he could not take alcohol mondays to fridays, but could still enjoy drinking saturdays and when they had friends around on sunday for lunch.
R
DammitJanet
Well-Known Member
I am not a fan of the Anonymous groups but that probably doesnt surprise anyone. I have never gone to any of the AA or NA groups because I dont think I have ever had those issues but I did try OA twice and I found them to be the strangest meetings I have had the misfortune of attending. I would chalk one up to just a bad group but when both were similar it makes me think all are that way.
I really went because I felt I had a problem with overeating and wanted support with that but I was quickly told that we would follow rigidly the 12 step model of AA but the one thing we simply could not and would not ever speak about was food. I was astounded! How on earth were we going to work on an addiction to food without talking about food? I am not sure but I would think that in AA they talk about alcohol at some point in time. It seems to me that OA is just trying to ignore the subject. Food is even a harder issue because we have to eat. We cant just not eat like we can just not drink alcohol. There has to be some food entering the body. I would have thought we would have talked about how we worked on overeating from week to week but no...that was taboo. I also dont go in for the higher power deal...even less back then.
Now as far as soboxone or methadone for the treatment of opiate addiction, I have seen that work. I have also taken methadone for pain relief and I have never felt any sort of high from it at all and I didnt become even dependent to it. I easily stopped it. I have never had experience with the other. I have also heard good things about antibuse and I have heard that there is another one either on the market now or in the pipeline coming out soon. If your child has an addiction to another drug, Im not sure what there is to help. I dont believe there is anything to help with pot unless its a SSRI that would help with the psychological need to alter one's state of mind. I believe most folks use pot to self medicate so maybe something else would work. Not real sure there. And with meth or coke...I have no clue.
I really went because I felt I had a problem with overeating and wanted support with that but I was quickly told that we would follow rigidly the 12 step model of AA but the one thing we simply could not and would not ever speak about was food. I was astounded! How on earth were we going to work on an addiction to food without talking about food? I am not sure but I would think that in AA they talk about alcohol at some point in time. It seems to me that OA is just trying to ignore the subject. Food is even a harder issue because we have to eat. We cant just not eat like we can just not drink alcohol. There has to be some food entering the body. I would have thought we would have talked about how we worked on overeating from week to week but no...that was taboo. I also dont go in for the higher power deal...even less back then.
Now as far as soboxone or methadone for the treatment of opiate addiction, I have seen that work. I have also taken methadone for pain relief and I have never felt any sort of high from it at all and I didnt become even dependent to it. I easily stopped it. I have never had experience with the other. I have also heard good things about antibuse and I have heard that there is another one either on the market now or in the pipeline coming out soon. If your child has an addiction to another drug, Im not sure what there is to help. I dont believe there is anything to help with pot unless its a SSRI that would help with the psychological need to alter one's state of mind. I believe most folks use pot to self medicate so maybe something else would work. Not real sure there. And with meth or coke...I have no clue.
It is hard to understand AA unless you are an alcoholic. And unless you have attended many different meetings it's hard to make an opinion on the entire program. Some meetings are open where family members and loved ones are allowed in. I have been to many of those. Some are Big Book meetings where you discuss a Big Book reading. Some are step meetings and I think that is probably the one Janet went to. It is rare that steps are talked aboutin other meetings except superficially. Rather they have seperate step meetings usually with their sponsor and a group of sponsors where everyone works a step together. Soe meetings are reflection meetings where you discuss a reflection from on of the reflection books. Many meetings are leads where an alcoholic gets up to tell his story. These are sometimes very emotional depending on where in the process you are. They are gut wrenching and this is where you find most of the power of the program, in these people's stories. I found myself crying listening to many, they hit too close to home. The schedule of meetings book always tells what kind of meeting it is so you can choose which best suits your needs. My difficult child had her favorite meetings, they were the leads. She made very good friends at these meetings. I have never walked into an open meeting where I didn;t feel instantly welcomed and accepted.
Rather than talk about why AA or al anon did not work for you, I would like to hear what program or technique did work. What gave you the incentive to want to stop and stay clean and sober? What support program or technique helped you take care of yourself and stop enabling your loved ones addiction? What gave you back your life? I think anyone in a program will tell you that they could not do it alone so for them they sought out something that would help.
Nancy
Rather than talk about why AA or al anon did not work for you, I would like to hear what program or technique did work. What gave you the incentive to want to stop and stay clean and sober? What support program or technique helped you take care of yourself and stop enabling your loved ones addiction? What gave you back your life? I think anyone in a program will tell you that they could not do it alone so for them they sought out something that would help.
Nancy
BusynMember
Well-Known Member
I don't like drinking either...at all...and you just don't get asked to socialize if you don't drink. Since I'm kind of a loner, I don't care. I don't enjoy people who are drinking anyway. Interestingly, people never get tired of trying to be the one to get me to "loosen up and get drunk." I have no idea why they care...lol.
Jumper is against drinking and drugs to the extreme and does not party and, since her boyfriend J, (who did not drink or do drugs) she has not found any guy she is interested in and vice versa...her core group of girl friends is very straight. They don't enjoy as good a social life as the drinkers (and those girls who have sex). She also got to see drunks and alcohol up close and personal with her sister too, so maybe that is part of it. It wasn't pretty!
