Lies

[WiseChoices]

Daughter works now, has own car (I signed my old one over to her), pays for gas and insurance, attends last semester of uni online for her bachelors.

Got involved in the drama of workplace right away, is always out either working or hanging with work friends.

I noticed today when I came home that she had been home but was gone again. No note telling me where she is. I texted asking and she said workplace. Lied she was on break and that they called her back go close. I knew right away it was a lie because they would not have her allmorning and then have her close.

She comes home way earlier than she would if she had closed and is in shorts. Keeps lying about having worked. I finally said "you were not at work , were you"? in a low key voice. She admitted she was out to dinner with friend but doesn't tell me who. Even says "I wasn't doing drugs or anything". States I am probably mad now .

I am not mad .I am just blah, neutral, in a way I don't care. I am so detached , it doesn't matter. The lies have been going on for years, I am immune to it. Or numb. I told her I am not mad but that I don't understand why she has to lie about being out for dinner. She had a lie for that, too.

So I am thinking there needs to be a consequence, and I don't want to live this way anymore. I think I will tell her I wanther to move out by the end of March. She should be able to save enough money by then . I also don't want to pay for her gym anymore (she doesn't go) and I want her to cover her phone line on my plan .

I don't know how else to deal with the lies. I can't change anyone. I can't make her be truthful. I can only think of my choices and actions. She will say I am being punitive but I don't think I care.

Just yesterday she hugged me for the first time in months after she did not want to be touched by me anymore (which I respected). Hugged me tight ,said I love you so much, and that I was very important to her. I should have realized right then and there something was up.

A few weeks ago, I picked her up from co-worker house after she texted me she was too high. And since told me that coworker gets high after every shift. And on another occasion told me another co-worker asked her why she is always in stoner's car . Yet every time she is out, it's with anyone but stoner - so I can see the lies. Pot wears off within 1-2 hours, so she can get high and come home looking normal. She doesn't realize that all these stories she tells me on different occasions I can piecetogether.

 

[WiseChoices]

Part 2: there is a box of take out in fridge, so she at least picked up some food. Don't know whether they are actual leftovers.

I feel drained and tired and exhausted from all of this . Only slept 5 hours.

Al-Anon has this property write up and it says that the lies belong to the other person. But that does not mean we have to accept the lies or that we don't set a consequence .I am wondering whether I am overreacting. I have the butterflies in the pit of my stomach which typically means I am overreacting.

 

[ChickPea]

I would guess that having her out of your house would be very helpful. I couldn't deal with that either. Not anymore. It's not healthy to have those butterflies, loss of sleep, etc. are not good for your health. Is this the 24 year old?

And I would drop that gym membership like a HOTCAKE. But we're on a limited income, so that just stood out to me. No point in giving the gym money for nada.

 

[BusynMember1]

I wouldn't expect a kid 21 or older, no matter what, to check in with me in an honest way. Mine used to say she didn't have to let me know.

I also would not let a child that age live with me. I made sure my daughter moved out although we did not exactly handle that right. We bought her a house but that was a mistake. Still, she was out and never came back. Distance helped!

I paid too much for her but today with hindsight I would not. She was not respectful or honest. And now she is entitled and wasting her life. And still not very nice.

Prayers and hugs.

 

[WiseChoices]

Baby steps. I got her to commit to paying for the gym membership herself. One more bill she is off of. All that remains with her is phone bill and health insurance. She is 21.

With my son who is 24, all that remains to be switched is health insurance.

 

[Blindsided]

Ok, so this may sound harsh, but at 21, not in school full time, she should pay for everything. No one else is going to do for her the way you have unless on an interim basis. I am so sorry to hear she is lying to you and disrespecting your boundaries. And equally sorry this is tearing you up.

My daughter recently told me, out of nowhere, that I was the best mom ever. I have done nothing different except that I didnt even acknowledge her comment. Because history tells me it is manipulation. I understand the anguish you are suffering, why you have become detached. We have to for our own well being. Only then can we be there for others that really need us.

Thinking of you.

 

[BusynMember1]

If they don't make much they can get Medicaid. It's free. We paid for insurance for a long time then let Kay go on Medicaid when she told us she would only go to homeopathic doctors. That was the first time we ever stopped paying for anything. Now we pay for nothing.

Do what you can handle. Blessings and love!

 

[Copabanana]

I noticed today when I came home that she had been home but was gone again. No note telling me where she is

I don't think it's age appropriate for this kind of monitoring. What is the goal here? That she grow up or that she is accountable to you? Don't you want her to be independent and autonomous? How will she learn if you insert yourself?

I think I will tell her I wanther to move out by the end of March.

I think this is appropriate. She is a grown woman. She is working. She is about to finish her bachelor's degree. She is bucking you. Let her go.

I wouldn't expect a kid 21 or older, no matter what, to check in with me in an honest way.

I agree. The only way that this might work, with her at home, is if you give her free rein in everything that affects her, outside of your home. I feel you can appropriately say, I don't want drugs and alcohol in my home or to use be inebriated or high in my home. But I don't see how you can monitor all of her behavior and comings and going. If you don't like her behavior, and how it affects you, ask her to leave. I don't see what other option you have.

also would not let a child that age live with me.

Well. I let my son live with me until he was 23. Did it help? Not one bit that I can see.

at 21, not in school full time, she should pay for everything.

I agree.

Wise. You've been heroic in how you've supported this girl. She has made it so very hard on you. Yet, you've accomplished so much.

She's almost done with school. She's working. Socially, she seems to be making progress, even though you may not approve of her choices. She seems a bit more compliant, and a teensy bit more respectful. In moments she pulls closer to you.

She has the means to finish school on her own terms, under her own steam. Why not let her move out? This is not kicking her out. It's letting nature take it's course. You could talk to her and set a date. I think this is exciting.

 

[WiseChoices]

Well, like I explained to her, when you live with your family, you let them know where you are. It's common courtesy. I don't need details, but a general idea. I leave a note when I go somewhere , so the family members I live with know where I am. To me, it's good communication, and being safe. If something were to happen to me, my family members know my last location. I also have a calendar on the wall where I put my appointments.

I have a big sense of safety, and maybe I am being too fearful. I will give everyone's input some consideration.

She is in school full time and works almost full time, 36 hours this week.

 

[Copabanana]

Who can argue about the courtesy and security of leaving notes about whereabouts? The thing is can one adult impose their values and necessities on another? All of us here on this forum have tried. I don't know one of us who has succeeded. Me, not at all.

The only thing that works in my experience is either to give in to what the adult child wants, and how they choose to live their life, or to live separately. For me, each of these options was horrible, because I hated how my son lived. But the reality is that my son gets to choose how he lives. That's the unavoidable truth I have had to accept. I can only choose how close in I am. A front row seat, with battles I surely lose, or backing off, which I have come to believe is the age-appropriate and realistic option.

 

[ChickPea]

With my adult children that live at home (or stay when college is off), I generally ask them to check in somewhat as a courtesy, and security - like if they aren't coming home at night, I'd like to know. I'll let them know if I'm making dinner or not (when I remember).

 

[Copabanana]

My quote thing is not working. I am responding to Chickpea here: With my adult children that live at home (or stay when college is off), I generally ask them to check.

This is the critical difference. I believe Chickpea is referring to her non-difficult adult children, where issues of compliance and reciprocity and self-awareness are not the battleground that they have become with the children who bring us here. Chickpea, how has this simple request, asking your daughter to check in and keep you posted, the daughter who has brought you here? How has that worked out?

With respect to the adult kids who will work with us and our needs: We are not tearing our hair out with these kids. These kids are not challenging our sanity at every turn. They do not have us cowering under the covers, or going to Al Anon, or into therapy.

Our challenged kids do not conform either to what we want and need from them. or social constraints. If I had to boil it down to one thing that brings and keeps us here on this forum, it's accepting the inherent unwinability of our struggle to impose our values, our needs, onto our children, no matter how correct or inherently necessary and valuable our viewpoints are.

 

[Copabanana]

This is Wise *My quote thing isn't working: I have a big sense of safety, and maybe I am being too fearful.

You are not asking anything that is inappropriate or over the top, in my view. The issue is not the propriety of your needs, or reactions. the issue is your daughter.

She bucks you at every turn. While she's better, she has mocked and disrespected you. She has shown across the board her desire to make her own decisions and to resist yours. The issue is a dynamic between the two of you, and between daughter and her father, not the legitimacy of your wants and needs. The issue is not the specific content of your point of view or your wishes. In nearly every regard, your requests seem reasonable and rational, to me.

The question is whether you choose to perpetuate the dynamic and to feed it; whether or not it is in your interest to do so, and whether it's in daughter's interests that conflict be perpetuated.

Clearly, up until now, your choices have been sound. Witness how well she is doing. The thing is our kids are adults.

Do I want to spend whatever life force I have left engaged in battle with my child, who wins every single battle, regardless of how right I am? Right and wrong don't matter here. Oh, of course they matter to us. But in terms of results and consequences, how much has "the right thing" carried the day?

You have prevailed because you've kept your eyes on the ball. Your daughter's welfare.

Up until now I have believed that my son's welfare and life, that he live, and live with dignity were more important than anything that I could gain or lose. Perhaps I believe this on some level, still. But the thing is, it doesn't work. All the self-sacrifice in the world, in my view, has not worked. And the cost is too great, for him and for me.

I believe we undermine our children by making them adversaries, and making them wrong. I believe we show respect and confidence in our children, by allowing them the freedom to live their own lives, how they choose. My own fears are my own. I have to learn to deal with them.

Perhaps I am wrong, Wise. You have achieved a great deal for your daughter. The household has calmed down. She is living a full life. I remember you saying she had never worked. I think I remember you saying that her social life had been limited. You have not written lately of overtly self-destructive behavior by her. She's almost done with college. The worst of things are in the rear view mirror. Had you not held her (and your) feet to the fire, it is likely that none of these things would have occurred. How can I argue with success?

The thing is, I believe that hand to hand combat in families takes a toll. And as much, I think there will come a point when daughter needs to emancipate. And you will need her to emancipate.

But most of all, when we get into these power plays with our kids we make them wrong. We have the greater power, here. When we win, something in their psyche loses. Your daughter lies to you because she feels on some level she has to. She feels overpowered and she feels her truth is not enough. Is this what you want for her? I regret greatly engaging in this hand to hand combat with my son. Even though I was in the right, I was wrong

 

[ChickPea]

My quote thing is not working. I am responding to Chickpea here: With my adult children that live at home (or stay when college is off), I generally ask them to check.

This is the critical difference. I believe Chickpea is referring to her non-difficult adult children, where issues of compliance and reciprocity and self-awareness are not the battleground that they have become with the children who bring us here. Chickpea, how has this simple request, asking your daughter to check in and keep you posted, the daughter who has brought you here? How has that worked out?

Oh goodness, @Copabanana yes. You are correct. This is for my non-difficult adult children. Sorry I was off to the library with the grandbaby and maybe didn't flesh that response thoroughly enough.

My adult daughter would not comply with this (along with many other basic requests made by us for any adult children living at home), hence, she is not welcome to stay in our home. Even with her not living with us, the constant shadows she throws on things is nearly too much for me to bear.

My difficult child can hardly tell me what days of the week she is supposed to work (and at what job, or if she has a job), who she is with, who is in her car... everything is cast in a shadow. That's not livable for me, especially after the multitudes of broken trust over the years.

 

[BusynMember1]

These particular adult kids, who never really grow up, do not subscribe to our social norms nor do they agree that our rights and wrongs are theirs. I could preach about the right thing to do and the right way to live until my face turned blue and Kay would say, haughtily, "You're just a sheeple. Your ideas are so old fashion." This was after I simply told her that if she didn't work she would not have a comfortable lifestyle. Was that so out of touch and old fashion??? My other kids would not argue about this. Kay thinks her own way.

Likewise, Amy and Rick, when living with us, had no problem telling me and my husband when they would be home. They did not give details of where they went but we knew we could trust them. They never, say, stumbled in drunk or high. They respected our boundaries.

It is hard to live with adult kids who are troubled and rebellious and.not very adult like. While our requests of them are, to us and other parents and normal adult kids, quite reasonable, some of our different adult kids seem to be at war with anything normal or sane. I am with Copa. I am done fighting wars with my wayward child. I just want peace and to be with those who are loving.

It is very hard to be overly involved with non conventional people who argue with any logic we present. Or what WE feel is logical.

Some of our waywards are not as hardcore as others. My Kay as about as defiant and headstrong and unyielding as possible with ideas about the world that make as much sense as Flat Earth. I would call her extreme. Wise, your daughter seems far less resistant to helping herself. This does not mean she isn't difficult and doesn't drive you crazy! But at least she works, pays some bills and is actually finishing college. I feel there is much hope for her, even for her and you. Be proud of yourself! She IS functioning as an adult and you had some role in this.

This is difficult, but we can do this. Love and prayers.

 

[newstart]

Daughter works now, has own car (I signed my old one over to her), pays for gas and insurance, attends last semester of uni online for her bachelors.

Got involved in the drama of workplace right away, is always out either working or hanging with work friends.

I noticed today when I came home that she had been home but was gone again. No note telling me where she is. I texted asking and she said workplace. Lied she was on break and that they called her back go close. I knew right away it was a lie because they would not have her allmorning and then have her close.

She comes home way earlier than she would if she had closed and is in shorts. Keeps lying about having worked. I finally said "you were not at work , were you"? in a low key voice. She admitted she was out to dinner with friend but doesn't tell me who. Even says "I wasn't doing drugs or anything". States I am probably mad now .

I am not mad .I am just blah, neutral, in a way I don't care. I am so detached , it doesn't matter. The lies have been going on for years, I am immune to it. Or numb. I told her I am not mad but that I don't understand why she has to lie about being out for dinner. She had a lie for that, too.

So I am thinking there needs to be a consequence, and I don't want to live this way anymore. I think I will tell her I wanther to move out by the end of March. She should be able to save enough money by then . I also don't want to pay for her gym anymore (she doesn't go) and I want her to cover her phone line on my plan .

I don't know how else to deal with the lies. I can't change anyone. I can't make her be truthful. I can only think of my choices and actions. She will say I am being punitive but I don't think I care.

Just yesterday she hugged me for the first time in months after she did not want to be touched by me anymore (which I respected). Hugged me tight ,said I love you so much, and that I was very important to her. I should have realized right then and there something was up.

A few weeks ago, I picked her up from co-worker house after she texted me she was too high. And since told me that coworker gets high after every shift. And on another occasion told me another co-worker asked her why she is always in stoner's car . Yet every time she is out, it's with anyone but stoner - so I can see the lies. Pot wears off within 1-2 hours, so she can get high and come home looking normal. She doesn't realize that all these stories she tells me on different occasions I can piecetogether.

When I read your post I understand it completely. You titled it 'Lies'. Lies are so hard to listen to, they are a bunch of disrespectful noise, they are insults to your intelligence and the lies can do cellular damage to your body, mind and soul.
Each time I hear a lie it is like I am getting punched in the stomach. It cringes my cells and I have to keep my fists at my side from wanting to punch. I think you are mostly wore completely out from the lies and having to guess everything. It is horrible. HORRIBLE with a capital H..Sometimes after I have been around my daughter and she gives me a ton on BS I can't sleep, I pray to let it go, that this is who she is, but deep inside I feel deeply insulted and irritated.
Sometimes I see that my daughter is working on the lies. This is major progress but she is almost 38. But then mania kicks in and she is back to acting like she is 5 years old. I would not wish a disordered adult child on anyone. I hope your daughter gets her own place soon. It gets much better when you don't have that daily crap.

 

[JMom]

Wise,

I had this same issue. The lie was worse than the truth. I had to tell my kid that I'd rather hear the awful truth than the lie. I told him you can answer "I'd rather not answer or You don't want to know" if he thought I wouldn't like the truth. That was easier than being disrespected with the lie. It is insulting. It sounds like your kiddo is ready to fly the coop. My J was doing better but I still asked him nicely to move out for this same reason. I wanted to know who he was with and when he'd be home, mostly just because I wanted to know who would be home for dinner. I thought similar to you, if you live under my roof, be considerate and check in. (I still do).

I also asked for the once a day text, "I'm alive, goodnight", I still get them and he's been gone almost a year. lol