My son is out. Again.

[Copabanana]

....there was a thread about leaving an inheritance to a difficult child

I remember that thread. It was about I year ago I think.

If I were to look for it (running short of time right now) I would search these terms: special needs trust and if that does not find it equal share. I am not sure which forum it was on, so I would either search all of them, or search first in watercooler, then PE.

 

[Copabanana]

the only way to find peace for both ourselves and our difficult children is through the process of really understanding and implementing detachment.

Kalahou, yours was a beautiful post and I am grateful for your expression of your point of view. I want to tell you how my viewpoint differs.

Not everybody aims for detachment, nor should they. Some parents choose to detach some, others for a time, and then move closer. I think detachment can help and it can hurt. And there are different views of family, how it is lived throughout the lifespan. There are too many variables between cultures, families, individuals, really, to be able to say that definitely, detachment is our goal, our universal goal. To me there is no one size fits all remedy. Detachment is one tool, in a varied tool kit. I have used it. It seemed to work, then. Looking back, I wonder if I made the right choice.

But I believe that detachment is not necessarily the ultimate goal for everybody. And should they not reach it, this does not mean they are not fully evolved, or more conflicted or more limited or confused or weak, or any other thing. Because, of course, we are all of us, these things. Human.

Nor do I believe detachment necessarily helps all of our children for an extended period. Often our children require our support for their whole lives, to one degree or another. There are parents here whose children have some degree of mental retardation, developmental disabilities, serious mental illness, or severe health problems, including brain injury. My own son has a combination of these.

Not all of the adult children of ours are either drug involved or involved with crime and the criminal system. Not all of them have been violent to us or to anybody else. I agree. In cases such as these, detachment can be a solace to a parent.

To detach from a child who will always need some kind of support, is not a goal that I would want to strive for. Nor do I want to detach from a child where the jury is still out--as to whether they can benefit from support and structure.

There is also the personality of the individual parent, as mediated by our differing cultures. There are some parents who will never find contentment in full-on detachment. The benefits, freedom, self-realization, peace of mind, diminishing responsibility--whatever--would be outweighed by the costs, to the child, the parent or both.

When I replied to your post I did so in a way that stigmatized me, as somehow damaged or defective--for loving too much. In retrospect, I believe my reply did not serve others well. Nor did it serve me well.

There are many parents on this board who, like me, strive to stay connected and involved in their child's life. They do so primarily not because of some limit on their part but because of their sense of responsibility and their conscious intention to support growth and responsibility in their child.

This is not to say that we can force growth and maturation and responsibility and self-care. But sometimes we can support it. Sometimes. If the child is unrelenting in her rejection of responsibility, or seriously and continually undermining the relationship, or the support is enabling regression or more serious misbehaviors and greater loss of autonomy--these have to be considered. And of course this: serious mistreatment of the parents, how could this be validly advocated or continued?

Is it not a type of cost-benefit ratio, an equilibrium that is dynamic and constantly changing?

I am in the process of deciding what to do. Honestly, after a 24 hour respite, I am in a holding pattern. Waiting to see what will happen. I slept not a minute. It is cold here. But we are agreed that we will not change our conditions. We are also agreed that if my son himself decides to get a clean drug test, and to tell us clearly that he accepts responsibility for having failed himself, we will reconsider our support. M has said this explicitly. I agree. Or more to the point, my stronger part agrees.

While I respect the Al Anon and 12 step ideology, it is not the only viewpoint or value system that I adhere to.

 

[Mamacat]

Thank

I remember that thread. It was about I year ago I think.

If I were to look for it (running short of time right now) I would search these terms: special needs trust and if that does not find it equal share. I am not sure which forum it was on, so I would either search all of them, or search first in watercooler, then PE.

Thanks. I'll search for it.

 

[Copabanana]

there was a thread about leaving an inheritance to a difficult child

Mamacat. I found two threads in the PE forum. writing a will involving a difficult child and special needs trust.

The former one is the one I am familiar with, started by Seeking Strength as I remember. The other thread, Special Needs Trust, is older. I have not read it, but I did set up a special needs trust for my son, at the urging of my attorney.

I regret it. I keep wanting to change it to a regular trust, but keep waiting for my son to get a grip on the marijuana, first. I may have to set a deadline for myself, to act regardless of any objective behavior change by him.

 

[Mamacat]

I'm leaning toward leaving my daughter's share to my granddaughters. I don't feel revenge or anything like that in my heart. I just hate to see the money blown on drugs and\or alcohol or abusive relationships. Her history with money is not good. She blows through money.

 

[Go slow mama]

But I believe that detachment is not necessarily the ultimate goal for everybody. And should they not reach it, this does not mean they are not fully evolved, or more conflicted or more limited or confused or weak, or any other thing. Because, of course, we are all of us, these things. Human.

Thank you Copa for how beautifully you responded to the question of detachment. It has troubled me at times, made me feel deficient that I am presently incapable of it writ large, full on. But I too see a continuum of detachment, certain aspects being relevant and different times. I understand from my own professional capacity that detachment is far more complicated than it appears, and not solely because of our own personal limits. It comes down to our standpoint as articulated by discourse theory. I loved this academic model for its allowance and embracing of variance in our individualism. So feminism for me as a white woman is going to look and mean something different than feminism for a woman of colour; and that is ok and equally valid. The thing about theories, is that they are good in theory. No one should feel they are held to or evaluated against any theory or model. Our family and parenting relationships are too complex as you've so well stated. If the prevailing model only sees us feel deficient it its face, it is not helpful from my view point. I applaud your critical thinking and articulation in your most difficult time. Thank you.

I am in the process of deciding what to do. Honestly, after a 24 hour respite, I am in a holding pattern. Waiting to see what will happen. I slept not a minute. It is cold here. But we are agreed that we will not change our conditions.

I am glad you are still in process and not shut down. Although I would also understand if you were shut down at this point.

 

[Mamacat]

Cops, we got the will hashed out. We're leaving my daughter's portion to her daughters, my granddaughters.

 

[Mamacat]

Sorry, Cops, not Cops.

 

[Copabanana]

Sorry, Cops, not Cops.

I want to be Cops!!! I have been Cops, to a few.

 

[Mamacat]

I'm laughing. I still had it wrong, but a neighbor came over and I had to leave it.

 

[Albatross]

I am in the process of deciding what to do. Honestly, after a 24 hour respite, I am in a holding pattern. Waiting to see what will happen. I slept not a minute. It is cold here. But we are agreed that we will not change our conditions. We are also agreed that if my son himself decides to get a clean drug test, and to tell us clearly that he accepts responsibility for having failed himself, we will reconsider our support. M has said this explicitly. I agree. Or more to the point, my stronger part agrees.

You have a lot of different things going on right now, Copa. The communication style/conflicts with M, thoughts about your mother, your son disregarding your agreement, how disrespected you feel about him doing so, etc. They all affect one another.

But I think the key issue is the clean drug test. This is non-negotiable for you and M.

You and M have determined, based on many attempts and much experience, that with marijuana in the picture your efforts to help him move toward independence are severely hampered, if not completely wasted.

I assume, after so many attempts to make this work, that your son understands why the clean drug test is a prerequisite to your assistance?

Do you think your son doesn't accept why you feel the way you do about him smoking? Or is it a question of lack of respect for your rules?

Or maybe he is just too short-sighted?

You say that you want him to take responsibility for having failed himself, rather than having misled you, disrespecting you, etc. Do you think your son sees it that way?

 

[Copabanana]

Do you think your son doesn't accept why you feel the way you do about him smoking? Or is it a question of lack of respect for your rules?

Or maybe he is just too short-sighted?

Yes. You are right. He does not accept our thinking about the marijuana. Yes, while he does try some, he does not put as a high priority respect for our rules. And most definitely, yes, he is short-sighted.

All of the above, Albatross. He says he does not intend to collect SSI long-term. He says he just needs 2 or 3 more years to stabilize himself. Maybe he is right. But M and I see him without job skills that he can realistically exercise, without a real work ethic, but improving, still disorganized but better, and worst of all--no motivation to set or meet goals. What is magically going to happen in 2 years, to make him capable of working, unless he does something?

It is not that he is waiting for other people to do it. He is not lazy (all of the time). He just does not see, or cannot take into account, or will not take into account, or gets anxious when he thinks about--the steps that are needed to be self-sufficient.

Actually, I do not think he values self-sufficiency. He much prefers this strange version of dependency that he imposes on us or any other willing, competent and comfortably-off person, that allows it: He will depend upon your good will, eat your food, stay in your place. And in return? He will do what he wants, when he wants, and pay lip service to the idea that he is cooperating, helping out, etc.

He gets wounded when he is thrown out by them, but he seems unable or unwilling to make decisions that lead to different results.

There may be a cluster of psychological and cognitive factors that contribute to this denial of or unwillingness to face reality. I get that. I mean, he did get the SSI. There probably is. But he is maturing slowly. M sees him growing in strength. He sees my son's will and self-determination as strong and persistent.

What he does not like is his manipulation, lying and willingness, actually eagerness, to deceive us to serve his own ends. He wants his cake and to eat it too. And so far there seems to be no dissonance felt or exhibited by him, that he will agree to one thing and blatantly do another, while denying the very thing you see. Gaslighting, really.

For insight and judgement, a psychiatrist who evaluated him 3 years ago wrote "very poor." But another psychiatrist who we have known many years, called my son "very self=aware" which to me means insight.

Clearly it is not good judgement to smoke up your SSI. But it can be seen to be good thinking to voluntarily commit yourself to a psychiatric ward, to avoid sleeping in the street. A $3000 a night hotel.

My son several times has tried to explicitly to lobby to use marijuana here--for me to change my mind. He points to professionals who sue it. And I point to the same professionals who work 50 hours a week, went to university for 14 years and do not need to rely upon anybody to subsidize or house them. I tell him: It's your call. Use it, but don't live here.

How many more times do I have to post that phrase to get it through my head, that he wants his cake and to eat it too.

He cannot see (apparently) that running out of money every month without food, paying little or no rent--is a problem. I charge him no rent. And more months than not, he has no money to finish the month to buy food.

You say that you want him to take responsibility for having failed himself, rather than having misled you, disrespecting you, etc. Do you think your son sees it that way?

In a word, No. My son wants full autonomy in his choices, values, interactions. He sees himself as the driver of his life (going pretty much nowhere, for the last 10 years.) However he sees problems or falling short as externally driven, the responsibility of others, or the effect of unfortunate circumstances.

I do not think my son sees himself as failing himself. Nor do I think he feels he is failing me or us. I feel that he thinks we are being difficult, unrealistic, irrational, un-evolved, rigid and demanding.

Writing this post, I feel depressed. My son does not like living as a homeless person. He does not like living near the street. He does not like being around problematic people. He likes hard-working, decent people. He likes comfortable, secure and upscale neighborhoods. He has never held himself responsible for creating either one environment or the other. All the rest of us are responsible. My son has run out of enablers. M and I are the last rats on the ship.

The last time this happened, I kicked him out, and he did go to residential treatment. There are bills for thousands of dollars. The insurance paid some but not all. The Residential Treatment Center (RTC) was his choice. All I had told him was THERAPY or a 12 step group. If you want to go to residential treatment, please verify the coverage and cost, verified in writing. Oh well.

So that option is not open to him. He has probably found a couch with some highly problematic people, and for that he has given them half of what remains of his check. And there we go again.

Thank you for your post, Albatross. It is always a pleasure to read your comments. And I learn much, too.

In the middle of the night I got your joke. About Olga. Funny, Albatross. (I just thought that you might be Russian.) Funny.

 

[A dad]

You are right to have expectations that your require of him to well be in your life but this is a big but there has to be a reasonable limit to them. For example my expectation are get a job get your own place to live and I do not care anymore my wives are higher which is a conflict but like a landmine I try to not put my foot on it.

In my opinion yours are reasonable but he does not follow them so its your right to detach. But I have to point out again no such things as job skills he has 2 hands and 2 feet and can write and read in different languages I might add what job skills does he need to arrange products on a shelf and present them or what job skills does he need to well work as he worked with your husband or better what job skills does he need to be a cashier or a security guard or a farm helper or a janitor or a babysitter and many others there quite a lot of well jobs that need no job skills.
The problem is his temperament that needs to be controlled in any job.

 

[Copabanana]

The problem is his temperament that needs to be controlled in any job.

You got that right. This is the key. You know I was posting to somebody else, and I thought about how cockiness and bravado are often broken out of prisoners quite young. The men themselves, the strong ones, do not break, but instead, their strength becomes more tempered, tested, well-controlled.

I think my son is the opposite of these men. Because of blows he received in life, almost all beyond his control--he felt broken from almost the start of his manhood. And without a father, until M came there was nobody to help him with this. And then M was first a rival, and then an authority figure.

There was no way that M was going to permit that my son go down the drain in our house, and no way he was going to let him dominate and mistreat us in our own house. End of story. Guess who wins? It is not that M needs to win (although he likes too). When the aim of my son is manipulation, irresponsibility and foolishness, M will not allow my son to win, where M has control.

So let me get to my point: my son asserted his power in exactly the wrong ways. By volatility, self-indulgence, drama, acting the martyr. He acts from whim, in the moment, not purpose. Doing what he wants. Putting himself first. Indulging every emotion and craving. This, is what to him feels like power and control. How dumb can he be? For some paradoxical reason, he seems to b conflicted about acting from true power in any sustained way. M thinks the key is avoidance of responsibility for anything.

My son simply prefers marijuana and self-indulgence to doing what needs to be done. Like M says, "I did not benefit in any way at all from what I asked of him." Nor did I. It was for him. While my son can see this in the abstract, he will not or cannot rise above it. He wants what he wants when he wants it.

Prison or the military would have broken him. Either completely or so he could rebuild himself. But due to his illness, the military was not an option. I do not think he could have done it. Now maybe. 10 years ago, no.

a farm helper

I always thought this would be good for him. He is disorganized, easily distracted, with no real concept of orderliness. He was a disaster as a stock boy. But with livestock, that would not require organizational skills.

His saving grace is that he is at heart a loving man, can be polite and charming and very smart.

I agree with you, a dad, it is his temperament, that is the issue, and deciding to get a handle on it. He needs to decide who and what he wants to be. Like the rest of us.

Thank you a dad. I am always happy when you visit my threads. Your advice is always sage and practical. You are a good man, a dad. Thank you.

 

[toughlovin]

Hi Copa

So my take comes from wher I am at with our son who is now back in our home.

For me detachment is about detaching from his choices and life decisions and letting go of my wish to help him make better ones.

So for me making rules about drinking or smoking pot are futile. He will find a way to do it and lie to us about it in the process. So to me it feels pointless. Instead I look at things that directly affect me. So use of the car is limited and we agreed on an app on his phone so I can see where he is going with our car.... and obviously he will have no use of the car if there is alcohol or drug use.

He needs to treat us well, clean up after himself etc. clearly he is out if he does anything like steal from us.

So I know you don't want him smoking weed and I don't blame you at all for that. But I think trying to control that doesn't get you anywhere. Better to be clear about expectations of things that directly affect you.

 

[RN0441]

So how is your son doing now at home TL? Is he working etc. and following your rules?

 

[toughlovin]

It's a bit up and down. He got a job which is great. It starts at 4am and so I have been holding back and not getting up to make sure he is up but leaving it totally up to him and so far so good. We shall see

 

[Copabanana]

I know you don't want him smoking weed and I don't blame you at all for that. But I think trying to control that doesn't get you anywhere

I have the issue that M is adamant about the marijuana use.

He will relent, if I say so, but I do not know what I want.

What I want is my son to take responsibility to make a life, to do productive things, constructive things. To take responsibility. This is unenforceable. It is a yearning of my own, over someone I cannot control. I know this.

My son has put marijuana use over everything in his life. How likely is it that he will stop, because we want him too? No chance. None. I do see this.

Except that I have maintained this stance throughout: You can be here under our roof or where we control on the stipulation that you make choices that are improving your life in constructive ways, taking responsibility, etc.

I have told him repeatedly: we are not a homeless shelter. We are not a treatment facility. We do not want to support you to keep your life the same. We want to support you to improve it.

We differ on the timetable. We say day by day, do something. He says, in the future. He can say that in the future, he wants x or y. But he does not choose to do one thing to realize x or y or would ever lead to x or y.

We tolerated the marijuana until we realized that it fueled so much of the irresponsible, labile and problematic behavior. And he smoked up his SSI money by mid-month, was dependent upon us for food. This felt very much like enabling. So, that is the reason for the marijuana. As long as he spends half or more of his SSI on marijuana, why should I subsidize him to smoke marijuana. This is the conundrum.

There is common ground between us. Maybe that is the place from which to begin again. Well, that IS the place from which we begin again, over and over: He wants a safe, comfortable place to stay and to be around people who are safe and decent and who love him.

We want this, too.

It is the rest that leads to conflict and pain. Because he never buys in to the rest, really, except on his own timetable, in his own way.

Because he does not buy in, he never complies. This makes absolute sense to me. You cannot make somebody buy in, unless they commit, they want to. He does not want to. Even I get that.

If I relent, and turn a blind eye to the marijuana, it is to subsidize his remaining dependent without control over his own life. I am as if putting my moral authority in favor of the status quo.

But if I look at it another way, maybe letting go, surrendering and letting him do it his way, including the marijuana use, is a way to manifest hope, to demonstrate confidence. Maybe my attempts to impose control and to govern him, is working against our working this out.

M will not help him or allow him to work with him, as long as he is non productive and using the drugs. M has every right to set this condition.

Maybe I could envision staying out of his life, except for imposing minimal conditions, to not include his stopping marijuana. He will not be allowed here in my house under the influence and will be asked to leave, if he violates this request.

If he smokes up his SSI, the consequence is his. No food, or food bank or free meal at the church.

That way I have gotten part of what I want: that he be safe, that I know where he is, that there is contact.

So the idea here, is that we begin again (if I can find him) where there is consensus. And take away the incentive for him to lie, deceive, manipulate. Which I seem to be supporting by imposing conditions he finds onerous and taking away his autonomy.

That is another way to look at this.

I am still unsure which way I fall.

I am afraid of his falling still more. I want to put a floor there, by providing safety and security.

The question is: what supports growth, the falling, hitting bottom and choosing recovery?

Or the sustained support and security, and the ability to choose? TL, you seem to be coming from this position. You seem to embody the belief in the natural evolution of capacities based upon support and hope.

Many people on the thread seem to favor the first. That we detach, and let them experience the direct consequences of their degradation and suffering. I am deliberately suggesting the extreme consequences because that is my fear.

These contrasting viewpoints are really deeply divided philosophies of life, that lead to radically different views of life, and how it is lived.

How am I supposed to know what I should do? What do you think?

 

[Copabanana]

He got a job which is great.

Fantastic, TL.

 

[Lil]

What I want is my son to take responsibility to make a life, to do productive things, constructive things. To take responsibility. This is unenforceable. It is a yearning of my own, over someone I cannot control. I know this.

This is me. This is me exactly. I could have written a lot of this post, but this ↑ is me. We want them to grow up! To be responsible, functioning members of society. To hold jobs and pay their bills and taxes. Maybe even to help their fellow man...but I'd settle for mine helping himself.

And you can't do it. You can't MAKE someone be responsible, productive and have a "typical" - or at least acceptable - life. But I want it with ALL my heart.

But if I look at it another way, maybe letting go, surrendering and letting him do it his way, including the marijuana use, is a way to manifest hope, to demonstrate confidence. Maybe my attempts to impose control and to govern him, is working against our working this out.

I've said before that I think having a kid live with you - regardless of age - makes it very hard, even virtually impossible, to stay out of the mother/child relationship. When they live with you, you expect them to be grown-ups. To work and be polite and clean up after themselves - and when they don't, you end up "reminding" them...just like you did when they were 12. What grown-up wants to be nagged by their mother? So then there's resentment and finally an ending of the living arrangements. I don't think a "responsible" kid wants to be taken care of. So a responsible kid doesn't come home and if they did, they wouldn't be nagged because they do things right. We have irresponsible kids, who don't do things right and therefore get nagged, and it's a vicious circle.

Sorry, that became kind of stream of consciousness.