My son is out. Again.

[RN0441]

For me, the bottom line is if they are being a productive citizen (working and/or college etc.), respecting your home, making good choices, I don't think some marijuana use would be a deal breaker.

At least for me it would not. The exact same as if they are doing the above, a few beers aren't going to throw me over the edge.

It's the whole picture. You can't just look at one part of the picture and decide it that way. You can't make yourself okay with something you are not comfortable with. That can't work.

That's just my opinion of course!

 

[Copabanana]

I think having a kid live with you - regardless of age - makes it very hard, even virtually impossible, to stay out of the mother/child relationship.

The idea of buying the other house was to create that distance.

Except if I tell the truth, even in the other house, I want control.

But Lil. How do I choose to let my son fall? This time you lucked out. Because he left. You did not push him.

I have changed, Lil. I cannot do it anymore. Literally, I cannot tolerate him living close to the street, in danger. Would not the marijuana be better than this?

And to complicate things, M seems to have morphed into Jabber. Irritated. Fed up with my son, but caring intensely that he become a good man. Willing to go along resentfully with what I want--I think he just wants to get some sleep--I have not slept in 2 nights for even 10 minutes.

He is like: Whatever it takes for me to get some sleep, do it.

Lil. I have the middle ground, the neutral ground (hypothetically), of the other property. Where I could in theory say, "live your life, your business," And know he is safe and secure. Or I could say, "smoke your marijuana, I give up."

Or I could say, what do you propose to make this work? What is your bottom line? Knowing that I could compromise on the marijuana. Really, the marijuana however destructive I believe it to be, is almost legal in my state. He had a medical marijuana card. Maybe that is the compromise. That his use of marijuana be legal; that he buy from a dispensary.

What do you think? I am asking for specifics here. Do I leave him on the street? When I forced him there?

Is that the right or wrong thing to do?

Am I regressing? I used to know things. Now I do not.

 

[Copabanana]

if they are being a productive citizen (working and/or college etc.

Well, he was working with M. But M lost patience, because of my son's constant manipulations, deceits, lack of accountability. My son would blame "the necessity to work for us" for his inability to take responsibility for himself. But he was working close to full time. And sometimes he would work hard.

I do not know what M is willing to do. But I think he is so exhausted that he will resent the need to supervise my son, like some overseer.

You see, if we give my son the work, it is a set up for everybody. Because there is the power dynamic.

If we do not give my son a place to stay, and we do not support my son to work for us, he will not work and he will not have a secure place to stay.

And I am not sure if he will change. Much. I am just not sure.

To have the illusion that by denying him safety and security--I am teaching him a lesson--and it is a lesson that he is incapable of learning. That is a set up for the both of us. I love him. I do not want him to suffer unnecessarily.

But how do you know? When there is so much love and hope and vulnerability wrapped up in a relationship, how does one know the unknowable.

 

[Lil]

How do I choose to let my son fall? This time you lucked out. Because he left. You did not push him.

Well, yes and no. He was given a deadline and he had the money to get a place. He blew that by staying involved with his deadbeat friends and in the end chose to leave town entirely. So yes, that was his choice, but he had 4 weeks to be out of our home...somehow.

I have changed, Lil. I cannot do it anymore. Literally, I cannot tolerate him living close to the street, in danger. Would not the marijuana be better than this?

I think we go back and forth on this.

What do you think? I am asking for specifics here. Do I leave him on the street? When I forced him there?

I wish I could give you specifics.

You do have middle ground - the apartment over the garage or something (right?) and the other house. You COULD give him a place to live, pay the "rent" and utilities and he'd have a place to be safe and warm. He'd have a roof over his head and not be in the cold. Even then, you MUST have rules though! You can't let him trash the place or move in a bunch of dead-beats. And you COULD say, "I'm giving you shelter - the rest is entirely up to you. Do your laundry, buy your food, pay for anything other than heat and AC. You want internet, pay for it. You want TV, pay for it." If he chooses to smoke pot and not eat...well, so be it. You could say, "Get a part-time job by the end of February (when it's warming up) or else you'll be out again. You've got this grace period because of the weather and for no other reason. If you can't get yourself together by then, you'll have made your choice to no longer have my support."

BUT, I don't know if this would work. I have no way to know and you don't even know. It might get you through the winter.

Does he still have the medical marijuana card? Because that would make a difference to me, at least a little bit.

You know, you didn't FORCE him there. He CHOSE to violate what he KNEW was a rule. If he got high on a job and got fired, would his boss be choosing to make him unemployed? I know ... it doesn't help. But it's a thought to keep in mind.

 

[A dad]

This is me. This is me exactly. I could have written a lot of this post, but this ↑ is me. We want them to grow up! To be responsible, functioning members of society. To hold jobs and pay their bills and taxes. Maybe even to help their fellow man...but I'd settle for mine helping himself.

And you can't do it. You can't MAKE someone be responsible, productive and have a "typical" - or at least acceptable - life. But I want it with ALL my heart.



I've said before that I think having a kid live with you - regardless of age - makes it very hard, even virtually impossible, to stay out of the mother/child relationship. When they live with you, you expect them to be grown-ups. To work and be polite and clean up after themselves - and when they don't, you end up "reminding" them...just like you did when they were 12. What grown-up wants to be nagged by their mother? So then there's resentment and finally an ending of the living arrangements. I don't think a "responsible" kid wants to be taken care of. So a responsible kid doesn't come home and if they did, they wouldn't be nagged because they do things right. We have irresponsible kids, who don't do things right and therefore get nagged, and it's a vicious circle.

Sorry, that became kind of stream of consciousness.

Even a responsible adult can not live with their parents without some sacrifices to your values(if anyone knows the term please tell me) for example what if you do not like his girlfriend or his job or hobbies as long as there legal I mean or his car or the way he dresses or what he eats or his friends or his lack of friends or his smell or his lack of smell and many many more things that really should not be our business but be that as it may you can not like it all.
Sure we can accept this with our life partners but their our life partners we chose them and agreed we can live with that and that but you do not chose your children and neither do they and its terrible for both to live with each other especially as adults when then want and should be treated as one. There is a limit to how much you can sacrifice and I really wished I knew thr term.

 

[toughlovin]

Copa - I totally totally get where you are coming from and the conundrum we face. I have done tough love (hence my name). We kicked my son out of the house when he was 18 and completely violating all our rules. We have drug tested and done all that. And he has been homeless and on the streets of Denver in the middle of winter. So we have been really tough and it was probably the right thing at the time. We had a younger daughter at home and we had to protect her.
And my son has been in rehab a million times. And he has been in jail. And none of it solved the issues and he did not fully and finally get into recovery. At this point he doesn't even see himself as an addict or alcoholic!! So none of that worked really.

At the same time, he has matured some. He is now 25. He has taken some responsibility for his actions. All of that has made him much less entitled than when he was 18. He wants to get his life together..... although I am not sure in his mind that he sees not using substances as a requirement to do this.

What I have come to at least for the moment... .and this may totally change again...is that the only way he is going to get his life together is if he wants to and the best way for him to do it is to have the support and love and connection with his family. I dont think he will or can do it without that. So for now my goal is to give him support, love and connection. He is living with us as long as he is respectful of us and treating us reasonably. I will not live in a home that is chaotic and not peaceful again.

Today he ended up giving up the job he had for a week. His reasons were understandable. He talked to me about it. And he dealt with it in an honorable way and it probably was a good decision because I think it really was a job he is not cut out for. It was not due at all to substance use. So I was understanding and supportive. He is also dealing with a difficult situation with a girl and we actually also talked about that and I was supportive there too. I was happy he talked to me about it. He did not completely shut me out and so this is progress.

So I agree there are strongly differing viewpoints of approach. I am not sure there is one right answer. I do believe in letting them suffer the consequences of their actions.... but I also believe that love and connection can make a difference. I also have come strongly to the point of view that we cannot control what they do and so limits and boundaries we set need to be clearly about things that directly affect us. To me this is what detachment is really about. It is not about detaching so that we have no contact or we have no connection.... it is detaching our happiness and our own peace of mind from what they are doing. I am doing my best to live my life, and to continue to enjoy my life no matter what my son is doing. Some days this is easier to do that others.

 

[Copabanana]

A neighbor said a homeless man was camping on the porch at our other house. We figured it was him. A while ago we specifically asked he not do this especially since it is a commercial building. For several days, sometime back, he ignored us and did stay there. This would be the kind of thing he would do, to get back at us. To show us he can win in our space.


So M and I set out at 8pm to see if he was there. Unlikely, because he has told me that the homeless find their spots after 10pm. We could not hold out until 10pm. We are tired and not sleeping. He was not there.

M thinks he has left town.

Thank you TL for digging down and explaining where you are and how you got there.

the only way he is going to get his life together is if he wants to and the best way for him to do it is to have the support and love and connection with his family.

I would say this is true for my son as well. Except that currently M and I are not on the same page. Nearly always we have been.

M has a brother who is severely mentally ill through inhalant use. A bright and promising teen, one day, already owning several properties he bought himself--he is living at a barely human level. I will not go into the details but he is cared for by his 90 year old mother.

M has been an alcoholic for the better part of his adult life. He quit drinking 6 years ago, because he chose it. It makes M crazy the idea that we allow my son "to self-destruct with drugs"while he is in our house or near us. He sees it as his own moral failure to permit my son to do this.

He is more frantic than I when we lose touch with my son. M really does not have a place to stand, with respect to my son. He is not his father but he accepts paternal responsibilities. I owe M.

In a sense I am caught between the two of them. Except I know that M would accept my son back. Wants him back. But wants me to make the decision.

But I do not know where my son is now.

I dont think he will or can do it without that.

So for now my goal is to give him support, love and connection.

I think I could say the same thing about my own son.

I kicked him out in 2011. It got worse and worse. Only when I began to let him come back in 2015 did he begin to get some self-control. He believes he is getting better. That has to count for something.

And I really do set him up with my conditions. I set up the failure. Really. I know I do.

I will not live in a home that is chaotic and not peaceful again.

My son is much improved in this regard. Even 14 months ago when he was here, he would call the police on us. And there were physical fights. There was some property damage before he went into the treatment facility, but nothing since.

And he was working with M for months and months. And I cannot forget that he voluntarily entered treatment for 2 months.

Unlike your son my own is not motivated to work for anybody except for us. We do not pay him because he is on SSI. He fears getting a job because he fears jeopardizing his SSI.

If I leave him to his own devices, I fear that he will live like this the rest of his and my own life. That is where I am here. This may be a spiritual matter for me: will I be able to stop fighting, that which I have no control. If it is meant that he live a life day by day, without real aspirations, that will be his life. I cannot force feed him a life, no matter how much I have wanted to and I have tried.

Thank You TL. A very useful and wise post.

We have tried so hard, you and I. You have learned a great deal.

 

[Ironbutterfly]

Well, he was working with M. But M lost patience, because of my son's constant manipulations, deceits, lack of accountability. My son would blame "the necessity to work for us" for his inability to take responsibility for himself. But he was working close to full time. And sometimes he would work hard.

I do not know what M is willing to do. But I think he is so exhausted that he will resent the need to supervise my son, like some overseer.

You see, if we give my son the work, it is a set up for everybody. Because there is the power dynamic.

If we do not give my son a place to stay, and we do not support my son to work for us, he will not work and he will not have a secure place to stay.

And I am not sure if he will change. Much. I am just not sure.

To have the illusion that by denying him safety and security--I am teaching him a lesson--and it is a lesson that he is incapable of learning. That is a set up for the both of us. I love him. I do not want him to suffer unnecessarily.

But how do you know? When there is so much love and hope and vulnerability wrapped up in a relationship, how does one know the unknowable.

HI Copa, I am sorry you are going through this. You know,we all get so tired mentally, emotionally, physically from our Difficult Child'S in trying to help them, hoping that maybe this time, will work. That maybe there will be a break through. But sadly, at least in my journey with my Difficult Child, the more I helped, did for him, the worse it became.

We don't know the unknowable. Every day we make decisions that will alter our own futures let alone our Difficult Child's.

What will your son do someday when you and M are not there to provide for him? Will he not be forced to make it on his own?

I have had to let go of helping my Difficult Child because when I am gone, how will he know how to survive on his own. I had to start working my way out of always being there for support, to answer his every beck and call. It was hard at first but as time goes by it gets easier. I just kept reaffirming to him, you are adult, you are 35 you make your decisions it's your life, you have to make your own way in life. I love you and know you will make the bests decisions for you. Then you let go.

I have faith in your son- that if you don't provide another chance for him (shelter, work) that he will make his own way- but you will never what he is capable of unless he flounders out there in the world. How will he ever know how good he had it with you and M unless he experiences the reality of life out in the real world?

In the end, we all have to make choices that we are able to live with, how much we will help, not help, to take their calls, not answer, not see them, etc. But they have choices as well; every day they have choices on how they will live their life.

 

[PiscesMom]

Copa, wow, a few similarities in our situations!

I am curious, have you tried to find a middle ground? Some kind of harm reduction, instead of an outright ban? You both sound adamant.

I am just tossing that out there. I keep going for the middle ground, and it never worked, but then again, neither did not allowing it at all.

I mean, might you have to let go of a certain outcome? What I may be struggling with right now, actually.

 

[Copabanana]

have you tried to find a middle ground?

PiscesMom, what would be a middle ground for you?

I guess I bought that other house with the idea it would be the middle ground. That he could be safe, secure and not in my space. The major issue is the marijuana.

I did not kick him out this time, my partner M did. Because my son kept pushing back one way or another the drug test. He is unwilling to stop using marijuana. At first we tolerated it, but it intensified mood instability, depression, and he began to destroy our property. I did not feel a choice, really. There were holes in the walls. All over. He busted my refrigerator door. This was all in the past 5 months, or so.

I guess the only middle ground I can conceive of is: live in there. Do what you want with your life. I cannot stop you. I cannot help you. Pay rent. If you destroy my property, do not live cooperatively or within the realm of convention with the other tenants, or do not pay rent I will evict you. If you smoke up your food money 2 weeks into the month, go to soup kitchens. Do not come and eat my food.

At least this way I would know where he is, that he has a roof over his head. This would be for me, not for him. So I could survive.

That is the only compromise or middle ground situation I can conceive of.

I am desolate and devastated. I do not recall being this low. Ever. About anything. With all the work I have done on this forum one would expect I would have found some core strength. I have none.

I am quite certain he has found some safe harbor. A temporary one. Or he would have called. It is always the same. He calls or come when he needs something from me. He only wants what he wants. How could it be any other way? He is an adult. He is not coming to me for guidance, or for counsel or for a leg up. He is coming to me to get what he wants as he wants it. He will lie, manipulate, deceive, sabotage and do whatever he can do in the moment to sustain the relationship so it gives him what he wants. There is no notion of reciprocity. No notion of integrity.

When will I ever learn?

My son loves me, but he is only looking to use the facilities I have to offer. I am like a high-class homeless shelter. That is it.

 

[PiscesMom]

Oh wow. I must not have noticed that it makes him unstable.
I don't know what to say. I am sure you have considered everything - group homes, medications, etc.

If you don't feed him, does he take it personally and blame you?

For me, I was thinking my son could use, but not be allowed to deal. He can deal because his father enables it. I was going to see if I could get my ex to cut off supply, just enough for them both to use. I know that sounds terrible, but things are how they are. Maybe I am completely wrong.

 

[Copabanana]

Our situations are the same and different. My son is 28. Any control I once had I have lost. I have no way to make decisions for him or his treatment. The only decisions I can make are what not to do. Not let him in my house. Not let him live here. Not let him live in property I own. Not talk to him.

I must not have noticed that it makes him unstable.
I don't know what to say. I am sure you have considered everything - group homes, medications, etc.

I have learned that there is not one thing I can want for him or want him to do. Your son is young enough where you do have some control.

I did say he could not live here unless he got therapy. He did go to a residential treatment center and racked up a lot of debt. But the minute he got out the weed started again, even though we told him he could not use it with us. He lies.

If you don't feed him, does he take it personally and blame you?

No. But why should I feed him? This is like a marijuana subsidy. I am seeing that any help with housing and food functions to provide him more money to buy marijuana. I enable him to pursue his addiction.

I am really almost at the point where I feel I have no options at all, because if I rent the apartment I own to him, I am saying really, it is OK the way you are. OK the way you live. OK to always be dependent upon the government. OK to not pay your bills. OK to not want anything for yourself.

At least if he is on the street he will suffer, and maybe there is a chance he will decide to help himself. My child has a chronic illness which is likely to cut short his life, without treatment, which is available. When he is homeless I lose any control at all to prevail upon him to see his physician. By detaching completely I feel I am risking that he die. Those are the choices I face.

Today, I wish I was not me. I am trying hard not to be me. I am ambivalent even to post, because I would really like to pretend I am somebody else or pretend that I do not exist. Neither one seems to be working.

 

[Go slow mama]

I hear you Copa.

I feel all of this along side you and I am grateful that you continue to post.

 

[PiscesMom]

Me too. Thanks for being here! I wish I had something helpful to say.
I binge watch TV shows on Netflix when things get bad.

 

[Copabanana]

For me, the bottom line is if they are being a productive citizen (working and/or college etc.), respecting your home, making good choices

My son has not had work or gone to school or training for 4 years. He is on SSI and he uses the money largely to buy marijuana.

I don't think some marijuana use would be a deal breaker.

My son becomes more unstable with marijuana. He is depressed when the effects wear off, and he has destroyed property. My property. He also uses his SSI money all up by mid month and has no way to buy food--because he uses his money for the drug.

I tried to stay out of the marijuana business--believing like you--it was his choice. Especially because it started out with medical marijuana. But the marijuana was the elephant in the living room. It could not be ignored.

All of our kids are different. We are all different. I think the only way I can ignore the marijuana is if I have no contact with my child, or very minimal contact.

It's the whole picture. You can't just look at one part of the picture and decide it that way

That is exactly my point. I agree here.

 

[toughlovin]

Oh Copa it is so hard. And your question about middle ground is a good one. I think that differs for everyone... it is all about figuring out what you can live with and what you can't and trying to live your life.

And it is hard... it just is. Take care of yourself right now and try to find things that you enjoy for you.

 

[Copabanana]

your question about middle ground is a good one. I think that differs for everyone... it is all about figuring out what you can live with and what you can't and trying to live your life

I think that what is crucial to me, is giving up any notion of control. That there is not one thing I can do to influence or affect his improving his life. And living with the reality of how he chooses to live his life. And detaching from it, as opposed to detaching from him.

TL, how would you feel if your son continued using marijuana or other harder drugs around you? And how would you feel if he was not seeking work or did not want to seek work?

To what extent do you think you would support him, that is, allow him to stay with you, or to subsidize him in any way (not necessarily money) and accept his lifestyle, with the hope that he would some day change?

Because that is the reality I am dealing with. If I decided to let him back into the other property I would be admitting that I have no power to change him, and I would be accepting that I was consenting to his life style, and removing any incentive for him to change it. That is how I feel. I would be acting to reduce my own suffering, by providing him security and refuge--with the hope that that would be a better and stronger basis for him to change. But I would in my heart fear that I would be removing the incentive to change, and I would be softening the life experience that would motivate him to change.

But on the other hand, if I let him wander on the street, to be subject to, vulnerable to whatever contingency and humiliation and danger that he encounters--yes he would suffer, but he could well become more entrenched in a streetwise lifestyle and character. That is what has already happened. The suffering would not necessarily lead to learning. I have to accept that my son has limits. All of the time away from me, eventually, did teach him he had to gain some self-control to be around me, but it did not teach him to be productive or to have goals. It did teach him to manipulate, to be dishonest and to dissemble. It did teach him to love marijuana. And what else he loves, I am unsure.

With adult children who may be mentally ill, I disagree that their behaviors are necessarily choices, in the same way that an otherwise normal kid who say, uses drugs, might choose. I am not saying here, he does not choose. I am saying, he might not be playing with a full deck.

This is such a difficult thing to ferret out. One does not want to take away the experience that will propel them to mature to the extent that they can, to live the life that they are meant to live. But at the same time, if they are not operating from a full deck, one does not want to "teach them" by willfully or punitively forcing them to unnecessarily suffer, in a way that will damage them irrevocably or kill them.

I was thinking about those guru type people, the latest one who is in prison for killing 4 people in sweat lodges. The idea was to strengthen them so that they would become "real men."

In my own case, the stresses related to my son are really impacting my relationship. I am seeing that my relationship is likely ending, in part because of the pressures of dealing with my son. On me and on M. M holds me responsible for my son's behaviors and at the same time, holds me responsible for preventing and correcting them. He lumps us in together (my son and I) as equally responsible and equally inadequate.

Believe me, while I have been having a hard time I am not an inadequate person.

 

[Ironbutterfly]

I think this is great middle ground COPA. He has shelter, can live his life, figure out his budget and experience the consequences if he runs short. NO helping him there. Sink or swim.

I too had to reach a middle ground. I know my son smokes pot, he says it calms him down. He refuses medicine says it makes him sick and feels like a zombie. He gets SSI. I pay his phone bill and I send him some clothes, shoes. That's it. He has his Pastor as a payee. He takes his rent first thing. YOU could become his payee if he is renting from you and ensure you get your rent money first. Then he gets the rest. I no longer get sucked into feeling like I have to help with his going hungry, being foolish with his money etc. If he runs out, that's on him. He figures out a way to get meals at a church, shelter, etc. I am willing to help to a certain point because he has mental handicap, but I learned my own middle ground.

 

[toughlovin]

Copa....Yes part of it is accepting you have no control and no real influence. That is hard to accept but is the truth and I think I have mostly gotten to that place. I know at different times my son being on the streets has gotten him to rehab.... but that hasn't worked. The one time rehab seemed to really do some good is when the decision to go was totally his. So I will not be surprised if he ends up at rehab some time again at this point it will be when he really decides to go. I am done trying to push him into going.
So for now we are sitting tight and waiting and are not pushing anything as long as he is reasonable to us and is not doing anything illegal. However he is isolating, spending most of his time in his room and is clearly depressed. My guess is he is drinking in his room. So how long do we just let that continue? We are not sure. Our hope is that at some point he will decide something needs to change. Right now for now I am trying to let him know we are here for him. I know he is depressed and putting him on the street again won't help that.