My son left. I asked him to.

[Copabanana]

She knows the "carrots" to dangle in front of me if I were to ask her what she wanted and a commitment to working together.

Yes. My son does too.

I have hope.

I have seen my son make incredible changes this past year. Not skin deep. Impulse control. Mellowing. Deciding to conform to what I wanted, because I insisted. Cooperation. Working with us.

I believe in part it was maturation. But there was choice involved.

I can accept if my son does not want to change his life. I will be sad, but I will accept it. But I will try to see if there is some way we can motivate him to want to change.

Walrus. I have come off 4 and a half years of very little contact with my son and very little hope. Our relationship was almost one hundred percent adversarial. I was furious and bereft. He was rejecting and hostile.

Where we are is a world away from that.

He does not have to accept any offer of support. He may not ask for it *although believe he will. But now I know where I stand. He may try to BS, but how do you BS a drug test? (I know there are ways...but it takes work.)

If I ask for concrete proofs of stuff done...we have the stuff done. He can always wiggle away. But I have faith that there will be a next time and a next time.

I never before really had conditions or a carrot. Already we are so much ahead of the game. It is glass half full or empty, is it not?

 

[DarkwingPsyduck]

Yes. My son does too.

I have hope.

I have seen my son make incredible changes this past year. Not skin deep. Impulse control. Mellowing. Deciding to conform to what I wanted, because I insisted. Cooperation. Working with us.

I believe in part it was maturation. But there was choice involved.

I can accept if my son does not want to change his life. I will be sad, but I will accept it. But I will try to see if there is some way we can motivate him to want to change.

Walrus. I have come off 4 and a half years of very little contact with my son and very little hope. Our relationship was almost one hundred percent adversarial. I was furious and bereft. He was rejecting and hostile.

Where we are is a world away from that.

He does not have to accept any offer of support. He may not ask for it *although believe he will. But now I know where I stand. He may try to BS, but how do you BS a drug test? (I know there are ways...but it takes work.)

If I ask for concrete proofs of stuff done...we have the stuff done. He can always wiggle away. But I have faith that there will be a next time and a next time.

I never before really had conditions or a carrot. Already we are so much ahead of the game. It is glass half full or empty, is it not?

You wanna keep him honest? Never allow him to take a drug test in the bathroom alone. People with hide fake urine in the cabinets, or something, just in case you insist he take a UA. Have a male in with him, or at least have you in the room, facing the opposite direction. That will prevent any shenanigans.

Most UA kits are pretty reliable these days. Buy 'em at any pharmacies. Cheap, and reliable. And useful.

 

[Copabanana]

The closest thing I had to any long term plans all included her. And weren't possible without her.

I have a SO of almost 7 years. I am ready to get social security and I never had somebody in my life to count on like I count on him. My parents, I could not count on. I was alone my whole life until I adopted my son.

I feel the same about M. If he were to leave or die. Some people say I would find somebody else. I am not sure. I never did before. Maybe I have changed. I have to be positive. But even though I lived my whole life alone, I am no longer that same person. Having somebody to depend on, who needs you, too--qualitatively changes a person, and a life. So, I know how you feel.

When you become addicted to drugs, EVERYTHING you enjoy slowly falls to the side.

The upside of this is the thrill and the joy to add it all back in again. And new things too.

We don't ruin our lives overnight, and we cannot expect to repair them over night,

Yes. I am impatient with myself at how slowly I am coming back. And I too fear that I will never come back like I was.

I still feel almost completely useless much of the time.

Me too. I am wondering if this is a state of mind. Not a fact.

nobody offered me any second or third chance (aside from this aunt, recently).

Nobody did me, either. But I did this for myself. You can learn to be this good parent to yourself.

Unfortunately, we will NEVER be the person we were before the drugs.

But perhaps a better one. A wiser one. A kinder and more compassionate person. Appreciative. Grateful. Present. Loving. Devoted.

 

[DarkwingPsyduck]

Almost 2 years later, and there hasn't been a girl I would even consider going out with. God, it took a long time to build the kind of relationship I had. She knew me at least as well as I know myself. My aunt and uncle adore her. She was perfect. I cannot imagine meeting anybody who is gonna stack up. It is. There is still nothing I wouldn't do for her. I still give her money, and I have dropped everything in the middle of the night to pull her out of dangerous situations. People ask me why I would still do all of that for her, knowing that she is just using me. And I dunno why. I am not stupid, and I certainly know what is going on. I just cannot help it. I always promised her that I would do anything I possibly could for her, and it is the ONLY promise that I have ever made that I have kept. Don't want to lose that.

 

[Nature]

Copa,

I'm so sorry you had to go through this with your son. Hugs from me

 

[A dad]

When I took my sons to work with me on different household projects I was so frustrated one needed constant feedback the other one did not but he did a poor job but he was so proud he did it alone of course I had to fix it and telling him he did not do good really sparked a argument. But I knew this is how you learn nobody can do things perfectly at first but it was still very stressful.
And they forgot everything now that their adults on their own. So much time wasted.
I understand why your husband is so frustrated but as he knows nothing that is the result.

 

[TheWalrus]

I am now where you were, Copa. After years of trying, stops and sputters and do overs, we are worlds apart. I feel sad and betrayed and confused, an old dog ready to hide under the porch to lick her wounds. She is angry and resentful and abusiive, a young dog barking and growling at the end of her chain. You are far ahead of where I am in terms of being able to see real progress, regardless of how slow or small, and having a firm foundation of where to go from here. That is a glass half full.

Darkwing - I have never been an addict or arrested or had any trouble in my life, but I had no clue what I wanted for my life at your age. I floated through some menial jobs and menial relationships (that seemed monumental at the time) before I "figured it out." And it didn't come all at once. It started with being tired of being broke and aimless, and that was the catalyst to set some real goals and move toward them. I still didn't have a plan for my whole life, but I started college and the rest is history. I think a lot of it was just learning from my own mistakes and maturing. I guess I just decided it was time to "adult," and it sure didn't happen at 18 or 21. I think it puts undo pressure on young adults to expect them to know what they want for their entire lives. By the time you are leaving your twenties is another story....

 

[toughlovin]

Hi Copa..... I think it is important to keep looking at the progress. I think your son (and mine) still need some clear boundaries and guidance and you are doing that. Your son may not choose to take your help or do what he needs to do right now but that doesn't mean he never will.

I continue to have hope with my son because I do see progress... And there are times like last week when I lose hope but then something happens and I see progress.

For some this is just a very slow process.

 

[Lil]

Does this seem out of line?

I don't think it's out of line. I do think it's quite "ambitious" for lack of a better word.

I'm 52 years old. I have no mental or physical problems of any severity. I'm addicted to nothing. I even quit smoking.

My goals in 5 years? That was a job interview question that I always dreaded. The only thing I can EVER think of when asked that question is that I want my life to be calm and happy. To say something concrete? That would be tough. Really, really tough even now! I guess if I had to, I could set out some goals now...but I truly believe that this is the first time in my life I could do that. I certainly could not have 20 or 30 years ago. Not a chance.

I was a laissez-faire parent. Live and let live. Actually more to the point, I was like that artist from France, Rousseau, that's his name who believed in the noble savage. That we were born good and our nature if just left alone would flower.

I suspect we had the same attitude. I had a poster once that was "How to love a child". It had a line on it I'll never forget, "Say no when necessary, say yes when possible." I lived by that. These days I think I was too permissive.

Years ago, I had many plans, and I was well on my way towards fulfilling them. I was a 4.0 student until my junior year in high school, also working as a manager at a local Subway Sandwich shop. I was actively planning out a college education, hoping to get into psychology.

I have no plans.... It is depressing to think about, but it is the truth. I have NO long term plans. My short term plans include doing the very best I can for this baby for as long as we have her. Pretty soon, she will be old enough for day care, and I can go back to working my menial, warehouse work.

So, here I am, unable to answer what should be a simple question about what I would like out of life.

This isn't unusual. Really it isn't.

When I was in high school, I was quite sure what I was going to do with my life. I did something completely different. Once I got to college, all my plans changed. I went thru a period where I had none to speak of. No plans, no ideas. My life worked itself out. Right now you DO have immediate plans. Personally, I think that staying clean, taking care of that baby, and getting back to work (yes, even to a "menial, warehouse" job) are not bad plans.

You're what? 21? You have time for more ambitious plans to develop.

And incidentally - there is nothing "menial" about any honest job. Every job there is needs someone to do it. Every job has it's own importance. There is no one "too good" to clean a toilet or load a dishwasher...or work in a warehouse. Don't think your job, whatever it is, is "menial".

I don't even know where to start anymore.

Why not go back to your old plans? You are clearly very bright. Did you graduate high school? If not, there is goal #1. Get your diploma/GED. If so, maybe goal #1 is night or on-line courses. If you really want to go into psychology, you still can.

My husband - who'll be 50 this year - got his college degree less than 10 years ago, while working full time. It is never too late.

We don't ruin our lives overnight, and we cannot expect to repair them over night, It takes time. It is a process. I am working on the things I can change for now.

As you should.

Unfortunately, we will NEVER be the person we were before the drugs. We might get very close, but a drug addiction is the kind of thing that changes you in noticeable ways.

You should not be that person! Life, even a non-addicts life, changes a person. I am NOT the same person I was 20 years ago. Heck, I'm not the same person I was 5 years ago.

You know the saying, "those who forget the past are doomed to relive it". You don't want to relive it. So you have to accept it and be changed by it.

I think you are doing a pretty amazing thing right now...coming here, helping us. You couldn't have done that 4 years ago, could you? Not all changes are bad.

 

[youngfool]

Hi copa so sorry to hear about your son and the set backs I can certainly relate to your situation sounds a lot like what I went through and still am. I was wobbly at first about my reason for asking him to leave he asked what he did to deserve being kicked out. And my response was it's not just one thing it's every thing all piled up but even knowing that this was the right thing to do did not make it any eaiser I still feel that feeling of did I do the right thing after a month. I Don't think that part goes away till we see a permanent change. And we all know that may never come but we have hope and pray it will and for most of us I think it will come but being prepared for the worse is my way of dealing with it. I have not heard from him but my wife talks to him and he is ok I hope someday to be able to have a real relationship with him.any way you know you did the right thing doesn't make it any easier. the right thing in life is rarely easy. If it were the world would be so different. Please take solice in the fact that you are not only helping him in the long run but also helped keep your marriage and your health. I know how you feel but that is what makes us good people if we did not feel bad about a situation like ours then something would really be wrong with us the fact that we hurt worry loose sleep means we are caring people and the fact that we made hard decisions about our kids makes us good parents it's easy to continue the current cycle to break it and demand better takes character not all of us have be proud you have the courage to do the right thing keep us posted thinking of you

 

[Copabanana]

Thank you everybody for your responses.

I am still struggling to unify two perspectives which are compatible in themselves. COM talks about how the best thing she did was to take herself out of the equation. Let her son come to grips with herself. With this perspective goes the quote by somebody, I forget, that you cannot live your child's life for them.

Then there is how I interpret RE's place to stand which is to insist when her child is near her that she observe the rules and essential values of RE, not the other way around. RE says it better but it boils down for me to: When in Rome...

Now, if I look at the ground rules I came up with, it sounds OK, except for the parts, do one constructive thing, and as Lil suggested, think of a 5 year plan.

Do I have a right to insist that a 27 year old man, to live in my property with my support, do one constructive thing with his time?

I think not. But I do have the right I think to remind him that his SSI is not guaranteed (he is in the midst of a review) and at any point he may need to work for a living. I think as his mother I have the obligation to take a stand that he needs to have a way to make a living, and skills to do so.

So that handles, "constructive thing." A way to make a living is more concise. A plan.

What is your thinking about this shift? Am I within my rights, and more importantly, is it valid to make this a condition of my help, that he begin to work to achieve a trade, college, or business?

People ask me why I would still do all of that for her, knowing that she is just using me. And I dunno why. I am not stupid, and I certainly know what is going on.

It is called Love, Darkwing. Like us with our children.

it is the ONLY promise that I have ever made that I have kept. Don't want to lose that

So here you are saying, your commitment to her is as if a commitment to yourself.

This is how I felt when my mother was ill. I could not be a person who did not help her. I was not that person and to be that person would betray the person I was.

These things change us.

So much time wasted

Never wasted, A dad. I get your point but it was the relationship that was built, not the construction skills.

having a firm foundation of where to go from here.

But this goes back to my introduction. What rights as parents do we have to make conditions for our adult children about how they live their lives? I am questioning myself here.

I know I have a right to say, as a condition to live here, xxx, xxx and xxx. But by asking him this, am I infantilizing him, encouraging him to be a baby, my baby, in the guise of something else?

At this point I am worrying if any of this is legitimate. Where I am coming from.

need some clear boundaries and guidance

Yes. TL. You and I seem to be in a similar place. Could you justify as a condition of involvement and support, request that your son do something to achieve work skills or college? Do you think it is defensible? Or not?

I do think it's quite "ambitious" for lack of a better word.

I get this Lil. I was always a person who thought in terms of goals and organized my life in that way. M is not. He does not ever plan because he believes plans are always upset by reality.

I will leave out the short-term and long-term goal part (if he ever does call.)

I was wobbly at first about my reason for asking him to leave he asked what he did to deserve being kicked out.

Hi youngfool. In this statement you encapsulate everything that makes me crazy.

Thank you all.

 

[Lil]

But I do have the right I think to remind him that his SSI is not guaranteed (he is in the midst of a review) and at any point he may need to work for a living. I think as his mother I have the obligation to take a stand that he needs to have a way to make a living, and skills to do so.

Completely agree.

Am I within my rights, and more importantly, is it valid to make this a condition of my help, that he begin to work to achieve a trade, college, or business?

Hmmm. I think it depends on what you mean. There are plenty of people who don't have a "trade". Someone has to work fast food, stock shelves in grocery stores, sweep floors. Being unskilled labor is not the end of the world. But, I think that making it a condition that he be prepared and do some kind of work is reasonable.

I say this mostly because there is little doubt in my mind that he must have some significant limitations. You don't get SSI for nothing. In fact, most people get turned down and have to hire lawyers to get SSA or SSI approval. So if he's been approved, there are plenty of medical records to back up his claim to be limited in his ability to work.

As I said before though, I'd guess you know more about what he's capable of than any other person.

 

[TheWalrus]

They infantilize themselves in their inability to become independent and rely on parental support. I think you are well within your rights to set conditions in order to provide him support or housing. Do landlords not require rent payments on time? Which requires (usually) some constructive behavior to earn it? Do they not set conditions such as no smoking? No pets? Number of people living in the house? I have seen landlords set all kinds of conditions on rental property and they are well within their right to do so for they are ultimately responsible for it? Why would being a parent give you less right to set conditions?

 

[DarkwingPsyduck]

I received social security benefits after my mom died until I was 18. Only 365 a month.

 

[InsaneCdn]

He does not ever plan because he believes plans are always upset by reality

Life is what happens when we are planning something else. (no idea where that quote comes from)

If you don't have a plan, you are going nowhere.
If you have a plan, you have to recognize that it's already out of date as soon as the ink is dry. But it IS a plan. Which enables other stuff to happen.

 

[Lil]

I received social security benefits after my mom died until I was 18. Only 365 a month.

Survivor benefits are different than SSA or SSI. They are guaranteed to be received if the deceased earned enough during their lifetime (and the dependent knows to file) while SSA (disability, not retirement) and SSI are both based on the disability of the person claiming them.

 

[Copabanana]

So if he's been approved, there are plenty of medical records to back up his claim to be limited in his ability to work.

Historically, there are.

My son was institutionalized as an infant, in a crisis nursery, after having been removed from his parents' care. He had been drug exposed. Then he suffered the effects of the institution until he was 22 months.

While growing up he had IEP's. His behavior was affected by ADHD. He was anxious. Impulsive. That was it, behaviorally. His IQ is high.

When he applied for SSI, he had had a couple of hospitalizations for suicidal thoughts. At least that is what he told me. (He did not live with me.)

At 20 or 21 is when depression began. It is way reduced now.

I believe he got the SSI on the first try because he is articulate and engaging, because he applied in the county where he was born and institutionalized.

I must say, too, that the evaluating doctor (I spoke to him) believed my son's judgment and insight were very poor. Is this not a common characteristic of most of our children, here on this board?

That is why he got it easily, not because his mental health state is more severe. It was because his story was more credible and documented.

I do not have a right to vote on the SSI.

M believes it was the worst thing to happen because it established a lifestyle for my son of dependency.

I see the SSI more as a pension. Like I receive. While it takes away the need to work, it does not remove the desirability of working. The benefits.

I do not make value judgments on the type of work.

I am asking here if it makes sense as a condition of support, living space, to ask that he choose to prepare himself to work in some way or another so that he feels confident he is able to do something, whether or not the need arises.

The choice of what, is his.

 

[Lil]

believe he got the SSI on the first try because he is articulate and engaging, because he applied in the county where he was born and institutionalized.

I must say, too, that the evaluating doctor (I spoke to him) believed my son's judgment and insight were very poor. Is this not a common characteristic of most of our children, here on this board?

That is why he got it easily, not because his mental health state is more severe. It was because his story was more credible and documented.

That makes a whole lot more sense now. Yep...that would do it.

I am asking here if it makes sense as a condition of support, living space, to ask that he choose to prepare himself to work in some way or another so that he feels confident he is able to do something, whether or not the need arises.

I think that's absolutely reasonable.

 

[DarkwingPsyduck]

Historically, there are.

My son was institutionalized as an infant, in a crisis nursery, after having been removed from his parents' care. He had been drug exposed. Then he suffered the effects of the institution until he was 22 months.

While growing up he had IEP's. His behavior was affected by ADHD. He was anxious. Impulsive. That was it, behaviorally. His IQ is high.

When he applied for SSI, he had had a couple of hospitalizations for suicidal thoughts. At least that is what he told me. (He did not live with me.)

At 20 or 21 is when depression began. It is way reduced now.

I believe he got the SSI on the first try because he is articulate and engaging, because he applied in the county where he was born and institutionalized.

I must say, too, that the evaluating doctor (I spoke to him) believed my son's judgment and insight were very poor. Is this not a common characteristic of most of our children, here on this board?

That is why he got it easily, not because his mental health state is more severe. It was because his story was more credible and documented.

I do not have a right to vote on the SSI.

M believes it was the worst thing to happen because it established a lifestyle for my son of dependency.

I see the SSI more as a pension. Like I receive. While it takes away the need to work, it does not remove the desirability of working. The benefits.

I do not make value judgments on the type of work.

I am asking here if it makes sense as a condition of support, living space, to ask that he choose to prepare himself to work in some way or another so that he feels confident he is able to do something, whether or not the need arises.

The choice of what, is his.

It makes all the sense in the world. You're trying to introduce him to the concept of delayed gratification. Which is entirely foreign to us. Hopefully, once he experiences the sense of accomplishment from actually working for something, he will prefer it to the train wreck of the drug addict's desire for instant gratification. Things are always that much better when they are truly earned. It is something we forget during addiction.

 

[RN0441]

Plus Copa, you aren't going to be around forever to help him out! (Or maybe you have a secret that you need to share here! LOL)

So put simply....he needs to be able to fend for himself.

All our kids do!