My son left. I asked him to.

[Copabanana]

Thank you Lil, Darkwing and RN.

I spent years dismantling my life in every way. And I don't know how to put it back together.

Darkwing, I am trying to go through the motions; I know how to put it together, but the pieces do not seem to fit in the same way. The way to do it is the same, the pieces the same. I am different.

You're trying to introduce him to the concept of delayed gratification.

Yes.

So put simply....he needs to be able to fend for himself.

Yes. That terrifies me.

Thank you.

 

[DarkwingPsyduck]

Thank you Lil, Darkwing and RN.Darkwing, I am trying to go through the motions; I know how to put it together, but the pieces do not seem to fit in the same way. The way to do it is the same, the pieces the same. I am different.
Yes.
Yes. That terrifies me.

Thank you.

Have you decided on whether or not to extend him this offer of yours? If you do, make sure that every condition you set is clear. Make him respond to each one, and don't allow him the opportunity to claim ignorance.

 

[Copabanana]

Have you decided on whether or not to extend him this offer of yours?

Hi Darkwing.

I do not know where he is. He does not have his cell phone activated. Because I missed him we went to look for him a little bit, but did find him. (Which is a good thing, really.)

I will let him seek me out, and see where he is about what he wants to do. I think the request for anything needs to come from him. If any proposal comes from me, it is more of the same. It is me who wants it--and his to sabotage.

I did tell him we can try again if he chooses to, so my decision is that we try again, but with expectations clear cut, written and agreed upon.

I agree with you on that. Actually, I am thinking he needs to meet the conditions before I let him stay, so that he shows that he is willing to accept them and work for them. No more I give you everything up front--you try to snow us.

Thank you, Darkwing.

Somewhat sad. I guess I have worn myself out with all this. I got all dressed up for the party--high heels and makeup--and nowhere to go. No son.

 

[Ironbutterfly]

Copa- I am so sorry you are going through all of this again. I would change the locks. You had every right to explain the rules. He has some sort of disability, but even so, he knows right from wrong and unless he is absolutely psychotic, is responsible for his own decisions. Yes, you will always worry about his welfare, you will always have that little bit of hope, that maybe this time, he will be able to straighten his life out and correct his course. But alas, for so many of us, never comes to fruition. It just is the wash, rinse, and repeat scenario.

I have been dealing with this scenario with my 34 old son since he was 20. He still lies, tells the most believable stories, which I fell for so many times. Now, I just don't say anything when he tells me something. 95% of what he tells me isn't the reality. I no longer get upset, question him, I know he is lying, and that is all that matters. He thinks he is pulling a fast one on me at times, I just let him think that. Its not worth the time and energy to "let him know I know he is full of crap". He does well for a while, then drama comes up, he moves yet again, then does good for a while, then it repeats the ugly cycle. I walked away as his payee this past year and it was the best thing I ever did. I had to, for my health, sanity, for my husband and I to get on with our life. I am tired, as we all are.

I hope you can find some peace of heart with your son and his circumstances, his choices. YOU have done all you can for him so many times over. At some point, you will be able to just "walk away" and let his life run its course, whatever that may be.

 

[Copabanana]

YOU have done all you can for him so many times over.

Thank you IB. This post brought tears to my eyes. I was forced to accept that it is really same old, same old.

I have not changed, and he has changed, but on his terms.

I have this whole better life ready for him to walk into. But it is not the life that he is wanting or needing.

All he want is a place to stay and minimal responsibilities. To come to our house to feel part of a family, eat everything in sight and listen to music. Not more.

It is very sad to me that I cannot help him without enabling his lifestyle which I do not want to do. But that is the truth of it.

I am back to what COM says: her most effective times were when she did nothing and let her son solve his own life.

I feel sad for me.

 

[DarkwingPsyduck]

Hi Darkwing.

I do not know where he is. He does not have his cell phone activated. Because I missed him we went to look for him a little bit, but did find him. (Which is a good thing, really.)

I will let him seek me out, and see where he is about what he wants to do. I think the request for anything needs to come from him. If any proposal comes from me, it is more of the same. It is me who wants it--and his to sabotage.

I did tell him we can try again if he chooses to, so my decision is that we try again, but with expectations clear cut, written and agreed upon.

I agree with you on that. Actually, I am thinking he needs to meet the conditions before I let him stay, so that he shows that he is willing to accept them and work for them. No more I give you everything up front--you try to snow us.

Thank you, Darkwing.

Somewhat sad. I guess I have worn myself out with all this. I got all dressed up for the party--high heels and makeup--and nowhere to go. No son.

I agree with this. It will also be telling to hear what he asks you for, specifically. That should give you a good idea of where he is really at. Not only what he requests, but what he does not request.

Yes, by all means; make a clean UA mandatory for entrance into the property. Does he only use pot, or is it something else? If it is pot, a real UA negative will mean he has been clean for at least a week or two. My drug of choice, oxycodone, has a very short half-life. Only around 24-48 hours. So, even with build up, I could piss clean in 3-5 days. Plus, I have a very fast metabolism. I am a skinny guy, as you can see in my avatar.

 

[Albatross]

I have this whole better life ready for him to walk into. But it is not the life that he is wanting or needing.

What changed to made you realize this, Copa, or to make you think he is not willing to accept the conditions you were going to offer?

All he want is a place to stay and minimal responsibilities. To come to our house to feel part of a family, eat everything in sight and listen to music. Not more.

What would you expect from him, to make you feel he is doing his part to be part of the family?

I am back to what COM says: her most effective times were when she did nothing and let her son solve his own life.

This is definitely true for me, Copa. I have to say that life is way better, WAY better, for both of us when there is a physical distance and no intervention between my son and me. I don't overthink everything. I don't try to "fix" stuff. And for his part, he is kinder, he takes more responsibility, and he somehow finds some pretty amazing opportunities that I would have shut down before they had a chance to blossom. When he is not close to me, I marvel at his sense of adventure. When he is close to me, we are NOT any of the above. He is not someone I can stand to be around. He feels the same way about me.

But this does not seem to be true of you and your son, from what I have read. The two of you seem to be very close and enjoy each other's company. And I think he is very lucky and very well off to have had your influence.

What is your son capable of, Copa, to make it on his own? Where do you see your role in his future? Can you be involved with him in a way that supports him without directing him? For example, what if he paid a nominal rent and earned an hourly rate for doing work around the place? That is fair to both of you, and it doesn't leave you "calling the shots" in terms of whether he goes to school, etc. Would he take advantage of that? How much freedom and lack of supervision are you willing to give him, and where do you think that might lead?

Maybe that is where both of you could find a way to keep your closeness and he could find a direction for his life.

Just hypothesizing tonight, Copa. Funny how different yet how alike our d.c.'s are.

 

[Copabanana]

What changed to made you realize this, Copa, or to make you think he is not willing to accept the conditions you were going to offer?

Nothing. I read IB's post, and I realized that again, I was inventing a life for my son.

I miss him so much. I do not know where he is. I feel so badly I asked him to leave but feel I had no choice.

he takes more responsibility, and he somehow finds some pretty amazing opportunities

My son, not so much. He seems to require somebody in the parental role, even if it is a friend.

The two of you seem to be very close and enjoy each other's company.

We were always very close until it got so hard. And this time we were close again. Almost like before.

And I think he is very lucky and very well off to have had your influence.

Thank you Albatross. You know he is adopted, but so much about him is like me. His interests and aptitudes, his kindness and caring. He is deeply moral. Which does not quite sync up with all the lying. Whatever.

What is your son capable of, Copa, to make it on his own?

I think he is capable of going to a university--a good one--with the help of disabled students services. I think he could be a chaplain.

I think he could teach martial arts or be a nutritional counselor. He could teach music.
He could work with the homeless.

He is very caring. Very smart. Articulate. But child-like in a lot of ways. Not competitive. Guile-less. A guile-less liar.

I do not see him taking on the responsibility to be a teacher with a classroom but he would be very good at the actual teaching part. Like a lecturer, but he could not do the stress that goes with being a faculty member, nor could I. *I trained for that.

Where do you see your role in his future?

I cannot see myself apart from him. I cannot see him apart from me. I never could.

One of the reasons we left the country was because I wanted us to live somewhere where adult children stay close to their parents. Where the culture permitted it. As long as I lived I never wanted him far away.

Then I couldn't stand him around me.

And then when all this difficulty started, I felt the joke was on me. He could not seem to stand me and I thought he had turned into a monster.

And now he is back. And more and more we seem to be able to make a relationship.

Can you be involved with him in a way that supports him without directing him?

I do not know.

The marijuana is an issue. He was brain injured. I believe he was high on something. It happened at my house in 2010 when I was working out of town. When he uses marijuana he gets very morose afterwards. His life becomes consumed by it--getting it and using it. Our worst conflict when he lived at home was after the brain injury. He would not comply with treatment. I was frantic with worry. I hired a nurse so I could work. And him? Rode his bike without a helmet. Refused to take the seizure medicine. When we chained up his bike, he retaliated and chopped up two of ours.

There is a history of power struggles. Me feeling if he is with me, I can ask for some things. He saying, no way.

He is better with this now. Me, less so.

What could it look like if I supported him without directing him? Because I think that is his problem with me. He undermines stuff that he feels I ask of him, without a right to do so--like the college.

The working with M. He would work good maybe one day out of 7. He did not buy in, although he really liked working hard when he did.

I just do not know what it would look like if I did not direct him some.

He spends his days at the library or Barnes and Noble bookstore reading. I do not think he reads edifying stuff now but sometimes he does. For a while he was studying physics.

While his preference is to live alone, he is perfectly happy he says with living with other people. The property we bought has the flexibility to offer a range of options. I could say, let him rent a room, and share it with other people. That way the norms would come from the other people and not me. If I was lucky the other people would be students/working people who would exert an influence on him as well.

what if he paid a nominal rent and earned an hourly rate for doing work around the place?

He cannot earn money from work legally because he is on SSI. There is some income allowed but I do not want to set up a situation where he gets in a mess, for my influence. He is not motivated so much by money. He might be motivated by other things--musical instruments, travel, enriched food, vitamins and supplements.

How much freedom and lack of supervision are you willing to give him, and where do you think that might lead?

In my heart of hearts I believe he has hit bottom. I do not see him seeking out worse drugs. He prides himself that he has not and he prides himself that he has not had trouble with the law or sought after bad elements.

He seems very happy in the house where he was staying (mine). He made connections with lots of neighbors and he feels they are in the main good people (it is a lower middle class area--working people, many young families--mostly people of color). He feels comfortable there. He feels a sense of belonging. I was actually shocked. They watch out for him and they watch him (we did not ask) but M and less so, I, made connections there when we were working.

He has everything he needs close by. I believe this place could be a place for him to build stability. But my throwing him out every time he does not do what I say--is not the basis for stability.

So I have to think this through very, very good.

When I go overboard in dictating how he should live is when he undermines me most. I get that.

Albatross, I do not know.

Everybody is just all over the place on this. M's sister thinks I should let him be and he will evolve. M thinks I need to set conditions so he will grow and change.

Right now I just miss him so much. It got so again that I loved him around me. Knowing he was in the bedroom down the hall. Just that. *He did not live here, but he stayed here as much as we would allow. It seemed to sometimes stress M, but not me. I loved having him close.

Thank you Albatross, and everybody. These are important questions.

I think when he calls (I hope soon) I will just ask him what he thinks.

Albatross, what do you think about the marijuana?

I was going to ask you what you think about the support, without direction. I mean, if he is going to undermine the direction, is it really helpful or hurtful?

 

[Copabanana]

What is your son capable of, Copa

See the thing is this: If I support him by giving him housing, he is protected from the hard knocks of life. He will not have to do the hard work of getting subsidized housing in some county....I have the belief that having to do this might strengthen him.

I do not want to enable him and to prevent him from living the life he needs to live.

But at the same time I do not want to reject him either.

 

[A dad]

Let me tell something I do not think you have to suffer hardships to become mature. For example my first job was as a security guard working 240 hours a month. But when I say working I mean sleeping and reading. On short not a very good security guard but nobody cared about what I did I quit the job after I found something better. By the way I recomand this job for any difficult child because nobody cares about you and well and you can get away with a lot of issues.
I got my house dirt cheap I mean half a paycheck cheap. No dificulty there. To be fair life was easy for me until I had children but it did not stopped me from becoming a adjusted adult.

 

[Albatross]

From what you describe he has made a real HOME in your house, and HE has made it so. I think that is good and to his credit. The connections with the neighbors, the sense of belonging, having everything close by and making use of that...he has built a life there, really. That is good, right? That is something he can build on.

On the other hand, I totally agree that providing him housing is not a long-term solution and not good for him in the long run. I just wonder if maybe the long-term solution might be better reached by building on the good things he has going now.

These ideas I am going to float are TERRIBLE ideas for me and my son. In my case, ANY direction or even PERCEIVED direction causes my son to rebel. I just put them out there because your situation seems to be very different. I don't know how much support without direction you are willing to give, and I don't know how hard it will be for you to watch as he maybe doesn't respond the way you hope or as quickly as you hope.

But I do think that if direction causes rebellion, there is no point in doing it.

I think working 1 day out of 7 obviously isn't acceptable. He needs to do more than that to earn his room and board. What are you willing to give him "credit" for, so to speak, that won't cause him to get his back up? Volunteering with the homeless or a literacy organization? Maybe volunteering at the Y, or getting certified as a personal trainer? Taking a class or two of HIS choice? Would these help him move toward having confidence to take on the hard stuff, or would it just be filling the hours?

Since you can't pay him, what about trading out specific home improvements for gifts he would enjoy?

Again, VERY BAD ideas for me. But putting them out there just to get your thoughts.

The marijuana, a hard question. He has a medical marijuana card, right? He just doesn't use it and prefers to buy on the street, which is one problem, and the other is that he uses it to the point where he's dragging afterward.

I don't know, Copa. I am not sure it is worth undoing all the good that seems to have come from him being close by. It was always our parenting mantra that if our kids had something they loved that they couldn't do high, they would be less likely to abuse substances. It turns out we were right 50% of the time. HA! But I wonder if the pot use wouldn't decrease as his life got fuller. It's not the MJ that is the problem, right? It is the overuse of it.

 

[recoveringenabler]

Copa, I've been following along and just wanted to say, that no matter what direction you go with your son, you can rest in the knowledge that you've been an unfailingly loving, good parent, whose done your very best, always. If you stopped everything right now, you've done enough. I think it's important to acknowledge that to ourselves, it's easy to keep on not recognizing what we've done and how far we've come. You're a wonderful mother Copa..... How your son responds and the choices he makes does not change that fact. Acknowledging that to ourselves helps us to balance our connections to our kids, where it can be easy to stay way out of balance.

 

[Copabanana]

A question, to A Dad (or anybody) . Would you be indifferent to your adult child's marijuana use if he spent on it everything he had, it was in your property, and he had a self-stated mood disorder, and the drug worsened his mood and apathy?

A dad, I loved your post. I got to this thread afraid of the gentle checks I would find here, because once again I am inventing a life for my son. To whit, this:

I think he is capable of going to a university--a good one--with the help of disabled students services. I think he could be a chaplain.

And this:

I think he could teach martial arts or be a nutritional counselor. He could teach music.
He could work with the homeless.

You see, that was only way I could live my life as a young person. The only way I knew.

I do not think you have to suffer hardships to become mature.

This sentence stuns me. Of course you are correct. But how do you mature? Is it physical maturation? Is it the accretion of experience?

My son is maturity, I can say that--but he is in no way mature--and I dread that he will ever be "mature" enough to want to do any of the things I mentioned.

He could be a loving and responsible parent. He is a good friend. He loves me.

He does not want to, I think, hold a job for the foreseeable future. Is that OK? Is it any of my business?

A Dad: Do you think it is right for me to insist that he work?

I got my house dirt cheap I mean half a paycheck cheap.

I read this quote and I thought to myself, what is wrong with me? Why can I not settle down and accept what I have, as enough? Why am I never enough, to myself? Am I doing the same thing to my son?

To be fair life was easy for me until I had children but it did not stopped me from becoming a adjusted adult.

So, again I am curious what you think made you an adjusted adult?

Thank you, A dad.

 

[Copabanana]

You're a wonderful mother Copa..... How your son responds and the choices he makes does not change that fact.

Thank you, RE. I am grateful to you, for your kindness.

What a great post, Albatross. Thank you for your time and thoughtfulness. I appreciate it deeply.

From what you describe he has made a real HOME in your house, and HE has made it so.

Yes. This is a true thing. With nothing there, really--he is sleeping on a sponge pad, he has made it a home.

I feel very ashamed that I kicked him out. When I am so proud of him and love him so much. He has a right to be angry at me.

I just wonder if maybe the long-term solution might be better reached by building on the good things he has going now.

Yes. I think so. I just do not know how to do it. I think it is hurtful to have ejected him into the street. At the same time he has done hurtful things. There has to be a way to make this work.

I don't know how hard it will be for you to watch as he maybe doesn't respond the way you hope or as quickly as you hope.

I know. It is very hard.

I am very afraid because he has an illness. I am very afraid to lose him. I have also been down the past few years from the illness and death of my mother. I believe sometimes I focus on him and not on myself. Wrong.

But I do think that if direction causes rebellion, there is no point in doing it.

That is true. I agree.

What are you willing to give him "credit" for, so to speak, that won't cause him to get his back up?

This is the tough part, because M was taking responsibility for so much of the monitoring at work and it was exhausting and frustrating him. So whatever I do give him credit for is best between my son and I directly.

Volunteering with the homeless or a literacy organization? Maybe volunteering at the Y, or getting certified as a personal trainer? Taking a class or two of HIS choice?

I agree. He will have to come up with it and he will have to take responsibility for monitoring it.

I am not sure it is worth undoing all the good that seems to have come from him being close by.

I agree.

I wonder if the pot use wouldn't decrease as his life got fuller. It's not the MJ that is the problem, right? It is the overuse of it.

Yes. And having it be the most powerful motivator to him.

I will think about all of this. I wish he would call me. I wish I could find him.

Thank you.

 

[TheWalrus]

I have tried to create and hand a life to my daughter several times. It took a therapist telling me that anything that I did, that was not of her own design, would never be accepted by her and would often push her to go the complete opposite direction. Of course, this made (and still makes) no sense to me - if your life was as bad as hers and someone not only wants to help you but is willing to help you walk along a path that will lead to success, why wouldn't you take it? I don't know why they reject it anymore that I understand why they reject us at times. Perhaps they feel we are trying to take control - and we probably are. We are trying to take control and correct an out of control life that means so much to us, but we can't.

 

[Ironbutterfly]

My plans? Hmm...... This is a difficult question to answer. Years ago, I had many plans, and I was well on my way towards fulfilling them. I was a 4.0 student until my junior year in high school, also working as a manager at a local Subway Sandwich shop. I was actively planning out a college education, hoping to get into psychology.

Then my world fell apart. And I was nowhere near prepared to deal with it. I cannot blame my situation on anybody else, as I made all the decisions that got me to this point, but not all of my bad decisions were intentional. Many of them came about because I didn't see any other options, or possibilities. I honestly did not expect to still be alive this long, and I lived my life as if I was going to die before any of it mattered. I spent years dismantling my life in every way. And I don't know how to put it back together.

I have no plans.... It is depressing to think about, but it is the truth. I have NO long term plans. My short term plans include doing the very best I can for this baby for as long as we have her. Pretty soon, she will be old enough for day care, and I can go back to working my menial, warehouse work. Aside from that, I got nothing. I don't even know what I would like to do anymore. I realize it has only been a few years since my life was relatively normal, but it seems like an entirely different life when I look back on it. I wish I had a better answer to your question, but I do not. I don't even know where to start anymore.

What about being a drug counselor. You have been there, walked the road, lived the life and came out on the other side. From reading your story, which by the way, you have a talent for writing, you would be able to help so many people who want to get clean, but don't know how.

Just a thought- wish you the best, proud of you.

 

[Ironbutterfly]

Thank you IB. This post brought tears to my eyes. I was forced to accept that it is really same old, same old.

I have not changed, and he has changed, but on his terms.

I have this whole better life ready for him to walk into. But it is not the life that he is wanting or needing.

All he want is a place to stay and minimal responsibilities. To come to our house to feel part of a family, eat everything in sight and listen to music. Not more.

It is very sad to me that I cannot help him without enabling his lifestyle which I do not want to do. But that is the truth of it.

I am back to what COM says: her most effective times were when she did nothing and let her son solve his own life.

I feel sad for me.

Copa- what COM said is so very true. If we help we enable. I just got off phone with son- yet another drama. He recently moved yet again. He called asking for 40.00 for rent. He is staying in one of those weekly pay motels. Of course, he put the fear into me, he will get kicked out if I don't help. I told him- I have to go and will talk to him later. He just paid his rent at the another place he has been staying at for a few months. This girl he knew called him and asked him to move to where she is- and he did. I know of course, she is using him for his SSI money he gets- but he is broke. Now he is calling me, fearful he will not make rent (help her in reality) and now it's my issue to worry about. I hate these calls. He could tell I was frustrated- he said Oh just forget it- I will go scam a church for the money. This is what I deal with. I send him clothes, shoes, food cards for Subway, McDonalds off and on. But here again- another call for a few bucks. I hate the position they put us in- if we don't help make us feel like crap- if we help, we enable the insanity of the cycle of not being able to resolve their own problems.

Like you said- he wants things on his terms. Sorry life is not that way. He has had his way too many times- it hasn't worked. At some point- it has to stop, and it will be painful for you and your son. But, if you keep giving him more and more chances, it will end up with it being on his terms again and again.

 

[DarkwingPsyduck]

What about being a drug counselor. You have been there, walked the road, lived the life and came out on the other side. From reading your story, which by the way, you have a talent for writing, you would be able to help so many people who want to get clean, but don't know how.

Just a thought- wish you the best, proud of you.

Thank you. It is something I consider doing, just not until I am perfectly stable myself. I am terrified of being detrimental to somebody else's recovery. Especially early on in recovery, you are on very shaky ground. The smallest things can cause relapse. Everything you say and do has the possibility of hurting them. I am only a little over 1 year clean, and I am still struggling plenty myself. I need much more time before I am comfortable holding somebody's recovery in my hands. I am barely holding on to my own.

My talent with words has never really served me well, by the way. Just made it so much easier to bullshit others, and even myself. The more clever the addict, the more dangerous he is to himself, and those around him. That is something exemplified by me. Lying to yourself is typical of drug addicts, but I was able to rationalize and justify just about every action I took. No bueno.

 

[Copabanana]

He called.

First, let me tell you how glad I was to hear from him. He was in the Big City a few hours from us. He had stayed one night at a hotel owned by friends (a paying guest), and the rest of the time outside in a field.

But who knows? He does lie.

According to him all doors that had once been open are closed to him. He said he was not asking for anything. But of course....he is.

It was left that I would talk to M and he would call back in an hour.

I broached it to M that we had a choice. We could insist my son solve this on his own. Completely. M said he believed we needed to support my son.

I feel that way too.

All of the conditions I wrote about, are still there. But insisting he accomplish them before he comes back, rather than after--seems overkill, and cruel.

His voice sounded sober and resigned. Even embarrassed. He was calm.

I do not know where this is going. I know I feel infinitely better knowing he is in touch.

 

[toughlovin]

Oh Copa I can so relate to how you feel and the relief at hearing from him. I keep coming back to that issue of balance..... We can't do it for them but I am not at all convinced that doing nothing for them is the way to go for all kids. For some it is definitely what they need to pull it together, but then there are those who don't make it.

So it comes back to how can you support them, set limits, be clear and not enable them all at the same time. I really think there is no one right answer but it takes looking at and knowing your kid and doing what your gut says is the right thing.

I know for my son right now the limit is he has to be going to the IOP and using that support system to help him. So we won't help him if he doesn't do that... But while he is we are.