New - 8 year old on the verge of being expelled - long

[soapbox]

And once you've jump-started that IEP process...

You might want to consider a couple of other evaluations before you even get to the neuropsychologist or other comprehensive evaluator...

1) Someone else mentioned sensory issues... expand that, and get a full Occupational Therapist (OT) evaluation. Ask about both sensory issues, and motor skills issues. Doctors motor-skills charting stops about where the complicated stuff starts... and its possible to be a star athlete (gross skills) and have a serious deficit in fine skills including writing. And remember with sensory, there's more senses than just touch - for example, auditory overload, visual overload are also not uncommon at school.

2) Screening for auditory issues. Anything from basic hearing, to language processing problems, to issues with auditory figure ground (fancy term for not being able to "hear" in the presence of background noise... and "normal" classrooms are very noisy places!). Any of these will make communication a major challenge, and makes school much more of a challenge.

Hidden disabilities such as Developmental Coordination Disorder (DCD) and Auditory Processing Disorders (APD) need to be caught early (grade 1, latest grade 2) if you are going to avoid secondary issues developing... such as anxiety, depression, behavior problems, poor academic foundation, etc. But they are not well recognized, frequently go un-diagnosed, even if diagnosed tend to be under-accommodated, and generally mess things up royally.

Occupational Therapist (OT) will not diagnosis Developmental Coordination Disorder (DCD). but Occupational Therapist (OT) results are very useful to those who can make such a diagnosis.

 

[buddy]

1) Someone else mentioned sensory issues... expand that, and get a full Occupational Therapist (OT) evaluation. Ask about both sensory issues, and motor skills issues. Doctors motor-skills charting stops about where the complicated stuff starts... and its possible to be a star athlete (gross skills) and have a serious deficit in fine skills including writing. And remember with sensory, there's more senses than just touch - for example, auditory overload, visual overload are also not uncommon at school.

took my son 3 years to be able to be in a school gym, not because of the sound...the SMELL he is very sensitive to smells. I always have ear plugs in my purse and he even carries come so he can just calm down if there is a lot of noise.

 

[BellJar]

Thank you all again for your replies!

Poe being on the spectrum was something that I hadn't really considered at all because he's so different from Salinger, but it's definitely something for me to consider and look into. I have been trying to observe more carefully, and one of the things his teacher mentioned was that when class gets loud, Poe gets very tense and tightens up. When he was asked about this Poe says he can't stand all the talking and loudness and putting his hands over his ears doesn't help.

What is Developmental Coordination Disorder (DCD), may I ask?

Anyway, a mini update - I think I mentioned that the school psychologist is coming to the school to observe Poe in class and then we're all going to meet from there. Poe was back in class yesterday and did OK, though I don't know if he did his work. For him that generally just means he didn't send anything flying or hit someone. *sigh* He's been pretty cheerful at home.

And today we met with the therapist that the principal recommended. That's one hour of our lives we're never getting back. Sorry to be so sarcastic, but I will be blunt and say when I talked to this therapist on the phone I thought he sounded like an idiot. But the principal swears up and down he's great, he's worked with a ton of their kids, and on and on. Well, after meeting him in person, I have revised my opinion. He's a creepy idiot. The man just gives off this vibe, like a weird neighbor on the corner that's always trying to give your kids candy and show them his toys. Plus he forgot everything I told him on the phone and didn't even talk to me, he just took Poe in his office to talk to him. (Yes, do leave that door open, thank you.) When he comes out he's all, 'So I understand Poe has issues talking in class?' Um, no, Poe has issues with HITTING HIS TEACHER AND BEING ON THE VERGE OF EXPULSION. Then the therapist says, 'oh yes, Poe, now you need to make a vow to me and your mom right now that you will never hit again!' It was like meeting the counselor from South Park in real life...'Hitting's bad, mkay?'

The only good that came out of that was what the school psychologist admitted to me, which is that if I'm doing everything the school recommends and then some they are going to find it near impossible to expel him. Damn skippy. And the principal had me sign a release form that checked off items like gathering the multi disciplinary team and IEP so I 'think' that's in their plans too, but I don't trust them to follow through. So I am sending the certified letter as you all have suggested. husband thinks we should just wait for our development center meeting on Nov 22nd to talk about Poe's psychiatric evaluations, as apparently that's one of the things they do, and he definitely doesn't want to go out of town for it. I don't know what to think about that. Poe might do alright for a few weeks, but that's his M.O. He does ok for a while, though schoolwork doesn't really get done . Then he blows up and it's time to duck and cover.

So that's where we're at. I'll make a few more calls today and see what's blowing in the wind.

 

[soapbox]

Developmental Coordination Disorder (DCD) - developmental coordination disorder. Good source of info: www.canchild.ca (that's just ONE source, but its a good one)

Its a developmental disorder - skills develop unevenly, some never become effective or efficient.
50% of kids with ADHD also have Developmental Coordination Disorder (DCD).
May affect gross or fine motor skills - or both... OR skills may not be so obviously affected but they have trouble sustaining effort on motor skills tasks (writing, dressing, playing a full game of some sport...)

Better-known in Britain, Australia and New Zealand - gov and health web sites from those countries can be very helpful.
Starting to gain traction in North America, starting with Canada.

And... 70% of kids with ADHD and a Learning Disability (LD), also have Auditory Processing Disorders (APD)... it all ties together.

Those comments about noise that poe is making? Very high probability that it is either sensory (noise), or its Auditory Processing Disorders (APD) auditory figure ground issues.

However... it cal be all of the above, and STILL end up being Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD)... that is, many developmental disorders overlap with Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD), but you can have one or more of these developmental disorders and NOT be Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD).. if that makes sense?

 

[Malika]

Hi Belljar. Glad to know that things seem a little more positive and constructive on the school front. What is it about some therapists/psychiatrists? The child psychiatrist I/we see about every two months looks and sounds like a little girl though she must be in her 40s, and she has a great deal of trouble listening - keeps interrupting and finishing the end of the sentence (usually wrongly). She is really very "dappy" and does not inspire not much confidence. So your chap is not the only one! Your son defiinitely seems to have some sensory sensitivity. Sensory integration disorder can cause symptoms rather like ADHD, I gather. I think you are going to be in a much stronger position once you have knowledge and information after evaluations... things are going to seem much clearer soon, I think, and the way ahead will appear out of the fog. Good luck...

 

[TerryJ2]

Are you sharing DF's caseworker? What is it with-people who think they can say, "Promise not to axe murder the teacher? All right. Everything is fine then." Turns to mom, "difficult child is so good now. See how easy?"
I'm glad you are getting things done, though. I know it doesn't seem like it, but you are.

 

[Marguerite]

Crikey, I've never heard of Developmental Coordination Disorder (DCD) and I'm an Aussie.

Welcome, Bell. I'm a little late to this, but from reading the first post, I was thinking that Poe needs to be evaluated for Asperger's too. If you suspect it in Salinger, then it has to be considered first for any other problems in the other kids.

You will hear that spectrum kids are all different. This is so even in siblings. I speak from experience - I've raised a cluster of them! The only two who have a diagnosis are my boys. difficult child 1 was always withdrawn, would curl up in a ball on the floor if anyone tried to talk to him. Terrified of kittens, puppies and getting wet. We went years without him getting his hair washed. He would tolerate a bath but no water above the neck. I could use a damp washcloth on him, that was all. But difficult child 3 - outgoing, would approach total strangers, very forthright, doesn't get shy or nervous, ever.

difficult child 1 hated any attention. He would also curl up in my lap and cling like a koala. If anyone tried to wish him happy birthday (or, heaven forbid, organise happy birthday being sung for him) he would not emerge for hours. difficult child 3 on the other hand went round Sydney telling everyone it was his birthday. He was four years old and had only just identified what a birthday was. Lucky for him, it was also the Aussie equivalent of Independence Day, so he got A LOT of attention! And from his perspective, all of Sydney was celebrating HIS birthday (and not the birth of a nation).

They can be very, very different. But at a very basic level, if you really look, you can see the similarities. What were the hallmarks for me with my boys -

1) Inability to distinguish between adults and children, in interactions.

2) Extreme distractibility. It's like all sensory input is wide open, and the child has to learn how to narrow down the aperture of their world. difficult child 1 especially did this, he could zone out in a noisy, crowded room. However, difficult child 3 can multitask and his brother can't, so difficult child 3 has not had to learn to tune out sensory input like his brother. So difficult child 1 would SEEM to be able to focus intently, but only because he was facing the front of the classroom with his eyes open and unblinking. But then, this boy can sleep with his eyes open.

3) Obsessive, often perseverative, on their pet topic. The topic can and does change as their interests change. difficult child 1 was obsessed with fossils. Then dinosaurs. Then he accepted that birds evolved from dinosaurs so birds became his obsession. Then it narrowed further to eagles. Especially the Australian Wedge-Tailed Eagle. difficult child 3 is obsessed with anything electronic and is gifted in problem-solving. A recent neuropsychologist assessment resulted in a perfect score in non-verbal problem solving. And a rock bottom score in memory recall.

The violence you describe - we get it too, but only with difficult child 3. There was a time when difficult child 1 was violent, but usually only when medications were wearing off or in some other way reduced effectiveness (caffeine would set off both boys). The violence is born of frustration (extreme) and difficulty understanding alternative action possibilities. They then get into bad habits behaviourally, and it takes a lot more work to unlearn the wrong behaviours. Explosive Child can help you both learn to behave differently toward each other - you need to be the first to change, even though you are not the problem. But someone has to start the process, you are the adult so you need to be the hero. It's not fairt, but tta's life.

oh, yes. One more hallmark for me, you also get it in very, very bright kids - an insistence on justice (as they perceive it to be). Anything considered unjust really, really upsets them.

Other hallmarks of Asperger's/autism - they are loving. They don't always show affection or emotions in ways others recognise, but these kids feel very intensely. They are loyal. Honest. Scrupulously, tactlessly honest. They can learn how to moderate their behaviour and responses but it grates on them to have to be polite, if it means having to lie. "No, your bum does not look big in that." (yeah, right).

They can often achieve well in some subjects at school, as long as they are not too abstract. Once the work gets more complex and subtle, they can struggle. But they are capable.

My older son couldn't write a story to save his life. Essays, ditto. But we got him through school which required him to master essay writing. His teachers deserve a lot of credit.
difficult child 3 - he writes poetry, he writes stories. Fiction. Imaginative narrative. But he is definitely autistic.

I have to run, school just rang me and I need to pay attention to them.

More later.

Marg

 

[soapbox]

Crikey, I've never heard of Developmental Coordination Disorder (DCD) and I'm an Aussie.

Marg -

It could be due to... medical professionals and their elastic terminology, probably.
Developmental Coordination Disorder (DCD) stands for Developmental Coordination Disorder.
The older name for Developmental Coordination Disorder (DCD) is Developmental Dyspraxia.
There are probably several other lesser-known terms, but these two are the most common.

 

[Steely]

And the acronym you use - Auditory Processing Disorders (APD) -stands for?

 

[soapbox]

Well now, that's strange.
The site used to highlight Auditory Processing Disorders (APD) and Developmental Coordination Disorder (DCD) just like ADHD... and show the definition on mouse-over.
Looks like that got lost?

So...
Auditory Processing Disorders (APD) = auditory processing disorders.
Central Auditory Processing Disorder (CAPD) (central auditory processing disorder) is an older term. Some in the field no longer use it, others use it specifically to denote disorders in language processing as opposed to other APDs such as auditory figure ground disorder where the person has difficulty distinguishing "important" sounds in the presence of background noise. Some of these are either "newer" findings, or the knowledge of them is finally becoming prevalent enough that it is possible to get screening and help.

 

[forkeeps251]

Then the therapist says, 'oh yes, Poe, now you need to make a vow to me and your mom right now that you will never hit again!' It was like meeting the counselor from South Park in real life...'Hitting's bad, mkay?'

Thank you, you've made me laugh today
Also, I love the kids names.

 

[Ggsgirl]

Hello everyone!! I am new to this process, but I would love some input on what I'm dealing with. I have a 13 yr old son who was diagnosed ADHD when he was 5, then at age 7 he was also diagnosed with Bi-Polar. Things were going ok till about age 9, he changed drasticallly. He was admitted into the hospital for the 1st time in 2009. He was there for 1wk. Things seemed to calm down a little after that, but soon started back up. This year has been a horrible yr. In 2010 he was taken out of his reg. school and put into a school that housed a place for behavioral students, about 6 kids in the class with similar dissabilities, towards the end of the year he started getting suspended at least once a week, which to me is a game-"I know how to get out of going to school", he was able to go to 8th grade. The summer started out and was horrible, he was put back in hospital in June with a stay of 1 week, he was home a week then threatened to hit me with a shovel and a log, the only thing I could do was take him to the ground, he is 160lbs. Needless to say the cops were called and he had to go back to the hospital, this stay was almost 2wks. His 3rd stay was about 3-4 wks later and lasted 17 days. My son has destroyed about every wall in our house from hitting and kicking them, along with things outside, screwdrivers thru the siding, pulling off downspouts from the house. My son is currently on alot of medications, I think he is over medicated!! Lithium 300mg 3x, cymbalta 30mg 1x, depakote 250mg 3x, Abilify 5mg, 2x, levothyroxine 25mg, seroquil 100mg night, and Vyvanse 40mg 1x. I think this is alot of medication!!! especially for a 13 yr old. He seen a therapist for about a year in 2009 and nothing helped. This school year has been awful, he is back to being suspended at least once a week, he is not doing any of his work, he is getting violent with the teacher and aides, kicking pushing, etc. Yesterday he was basically expelled from the school and is now going to have to go to a different school, more for his needs. He is also heading into a residential placement. I also have a 15 yr old daughter who is very scared of him and I have to protect her. He is very angry!! he says he wants to kill himself, he hates his life, and we hate him. These are hard things to hear from your son on a daily basis. As far as being suicidal, he has gotten knives and put them to his head or arms but never cut himself, one day I believe he will. He has no friends, nobody wants to hang out with him..His Dr. feels he may also have aspergers, which he is in the process of being "tested". My husband and I are at a point that we just can't take anymore. It is non-stop in our household, I work 1st shift and Husband works 2nd shift, so one of us is with him at all times. He lies about everything, steals from us and others, and is rude, disrespectful in public. The school called and told us to pick him up because he was out of control yesterday, my husband told them to call the cops in which they did, and needless to say he got arrested. We have called the cops on him a few times to document the problems but now he has a record to go with it. I would love any insite, advice, questions , anything that will help.

 

[keista]

Welcome GGsgirl!

It's best if you start your own thread so ppl can come and focus on just your issues. Since I'm here, I will express my concerns about your son's medications. That is a LOT!!!!!!!!!!!!! AND then the psychiatrist suggests he may also be Asperger's? Hmmmmmmmmmmm Have you considered admitting him for a medication wash? Get him medication free and start from scratch?

Welcome again.

 

[Ggsgirl]

Sorry about the thread thing, no nothing about how this works. Yes, Kyle is going through some testing to see if he possibly has Asperger's, When he was in the hospital the time before last his Dr. brought it up. I see the social skills part of it, because of not having or keeping friends very long. As far as the medication wash goes, I have brought that up with his Dr. several times and to no avail. I'm hoping with the advocate I can get something done.

 

[keista]

A hello thread was posted with your name, so you can enter that in the search box to find it. Otherwise, click on Forum (seconds tab from the left) Then the second forum down is General Parenting. Click on that. You'll see a box +Post New Thread. Click that and start writing. (you can copy and paste this post too)

 

[HaoZi]

Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) folks often react to medications quite differently than NT folks.

 

[Ggsgirl]

Thank you I think I got it now , and did the new post. Thank you again