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[Marguerite]

Welcome. Take heart - help is available and a lot of it you can do yourself. You've already had some good advice.

To summarise and also clarify -

Your pediatrician sounds good, in that he said ODD rarely travels alone.However, saying it couldn't be BiPolar (BP) because she reserves her tantrums for home - he's wrong on that score. This isn't a home issue, apart from the fact that she clearly feels safer at home to express how bad she feels. This tells me that you have provided her with a loving, secure environment.

Explosive Child - get it out of the library by all means. But for an advance peek, check out the Early Childhood forum, there is some good discussion on it there. And you need your husband on board also.

The video thing is a good idea. Do it. And get him to lurk/post here, it really helps.

Welcome. We can help.

Marg

 

[house of cards]

I am adding my welcome and agree that this site is amazing. As for your stress level and your husband's lack of awareness, I have an idea that can help both. Leave him alone with all the kids and go shopping on a regular basis. You need the break and he needs to begin to understand. You probably can't take the other kids because if it is anything like my house..they are a big part of what sets my difficult child off.

 

[busywend]

I personally believe all kids WANT to be good and make their parents proud. Some (our difficult children) just can't do it all the time. And I think it makes things even worse for them.

Next time try to sympathize - or maybe you can empathize if you recall what it was like for you when you had hard times as a child. Say something to her like, "I know you are having a hard time right now, would you like for us to take a snuggle time in the other room?" These kids tend to lean toward the 'nobody loves me' syndrome - this tactic help in that area, too.

Obviously, snuggle time will not work at 13, but most of us have found something that works only to find it no longer works in a few months. They keep us on our toes! So, if it only works one time, it is better than nothing.

 

[Kjs]

Her teacher's main concerns were her difficulty in keeping her things organized

So familiar. Had the ODD diagnosis ten years ago. Then a few others thrown in and out over the years. No response to traditional anything here.

I am definately his target. He pushes MY buttons. He argues with ME. Teachers too. School is always a struggle.

Oranization - I could send 20 pencils a day and he would not have a single one the end of the day. I can drop him off at the door with books and the books never make it to the classroom. Any school supply. Where are they????? He has NO idea. HOW can he walk through the door with a book and misplace it in a matter of 5 minutes? that is just ONE example.

Took me until his 8th grade year to get a second set of books at home (since he can't remember to bring his home, heck he can't remember WHERE it is!)


When we are having difficult times, I swear he would tell me the sun is blue if it would get me going. And he would be adimant about it. So much so it would start an argument. Without even knowing you are sucked into this argument with a little child over something silly.

You will find a wealth of knowledge here from many experienced parents. I hope you find some relief, support and encouragement here. It's a great place.

 

[BusynMember]

I would take the one with the profound speech delay to a neuropsychologist too. Even if she is catching up, a speech delay is a huge red flag for Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD). The kids often catch up, but still have lots of problems in school AND in the social world (my son is one--he now has a great vocabulary, but still can't hold a good give-and-take conversation). He is friendly, but doesn't really know how to make/keep friends. This particular problem didn't SEEM like a problem until he was eight or so because kids don't really socialize much at a young age, but it stood out like a sore thumb once he got older and I wish he had gotten social skills help sooner. And he has some life skill issues, such as not caring about how he smells...this can inhibit him a lot when he's eighteen. I wouldn't let it go and just put it down to "speech delay." JMO because the earlier you get help, the better the prognosis (for ANYTHING) and more may be going on than a speech delay (and, no, a speech therapist wouldn't know). My son made remarkable speech progress too (as far as words/sentences go), but he still has Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) issues that transcend speech. You really need a neuropsychologist evalution to be safe. I believe in "better to be safe than sorry" because if you catch stuff when they are older, it is harder to correct or help. Good luck.

 

[threebabygirls]

She frequently tries to draw me into an argument, as well. She will be adamant about something which she knows nothing about, and challenge my word for it. I often hear, "how would you know?" I simply tell her I'm 28 and have a lot more experience than she does.

Thanks for the tip about the speech delay possibly indicating other problems. I've often wondered, but when she was tested in EI and at the IU, she tested way beyond her actual age in all areas except expressive language.

 

[BusynMember]

I would test her at a neuropsychologist. Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) kids can be brilliant, but they still have Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD). A profound speech delay isn't something to ignore in my opinion. You can not know if, at four, she is suffering from Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) yet...usually the ones with higher functioning Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) don't present as THAT different until they are older...and then you are wasting years where she could have been helped beyond the speech. My son tested above age level in every area too except "expressive language" (in fact he could read at two--by rote). It's up to you, but I'm on the "better to be safe than sorry" bandwagon. A school district would miss it.
My son was in PT, Occupational Therapist (OT) and social skills and it made all the difference in the world in him on every level. He's fifteen now and doing great. His first diagnosis was speech delay/ADHD/ODD...be careful. The first diagnosis is often NOT the right one.
NeuroPsychs, who test up to ten hours, are the best ones to see. That makes me wonder if the older one may be a spectrum kid because it runs in families big time.
It's up to you though. good luck, whatever you decide to do!

 

[Andy]

Welcome - Just want to comment on the Manipulative Child book. As with all books, the material doesn't fit all situations. I do have an inkling that it may help you. What I have learned from the book:

Kids and parents "fall into" the manipulation process. When I read that your child was clingier than normal it so reminded me of my difficult child. I think that when kids are clingy, they seem to pick up on our vulnerabilities easier and use this as ammo.

Does your difficult child try to change the subject to her advantage or just to keep from possibly getting into trouble or from doing something she doesn't want to do?

Example: "difficult child, please bring the bike into the garage."
"I want it to stay outside"
"You need to bring it inside in case it rains."
"How do you know it is going to rain?"
"The radio says it might."
"But how do you know?"
"I don't"
"Then I don't have to bring the bike in."

See how difficult children can debate away doing something? The real issue was bringing the bike in but difficult child got your attention away from that and on to the possibility of rain.

This book showed me how my children are very good at using my emotional and rationalization ability to get out of almost anything. Most kids that fall into this have very smart parents who are trying to teach their children the ability to think and solve problems. They take this problem solving theroy into getting out of doing what parents want them to do or to get something from their parents.

Most kids like to use their parent's feelings against them: "I hate you! You don't love me anymore!" Makes most of us fall apart and do whatever it is to get them to see that we do love them. Your child has picked up that it irritates you to be questioned, "How do you know?" Because, once we become angry, our focus is taken off whatever and put on our anger toward what was just said or done.

We need to ignore these words and not allow the child to take our focus off the issue at hand. Also helps to give as little info in the instructions as possible.

"difficult child, please bring the bike into the garage."
"It can stay outside tonight."
"difficult child, your bike needs to be in the garage." (do not mention rain)
"How do you know?"
"difficult child, you need to put your bike into the garage."

Stay calm and keep the focus on the job at hand - no explanation needed. We all want our kids to learn why jobs need to be done, however, some kids will use the explanation as ammunition to question why or demand that they don't need to. If you want your child to know the "why" wait until they do what was requested and then explain why.

I first tried this technique on my 17 yr old easy child - As I calmly said over and over, "When the dishes are put away then you get the computer back" I was amazed at how many things she said to get my focus off of her putting the dishes away. She was trying to manipulate the situation to get her computer back without doing the dishes.

Basically the technique in this book is;
1. Stop the behavior - stop the wanting to argue
2. Pause - time to calm down - sometimes when you tell the child to sit out for a few minutes - she will say, "O.K. I will do what you want". She still has to do whatever the 'pause' activitiy is. When you say, you are to sit down for two minutes, then she sits for two minutes before doing the activity even if she is willing to start behaving.
3. Redirect - O.K., you may now do what I asked you to.

Each kid is different and you will get what you need out of what you read.

Welcome aboard.

 

[Marguerite]

Andy, I think I'm going to have to write my own version of that book. I can understand there are kids who just have to be told, "Because I said so," and to know that it means there is a good reason that can't always be explained. But I have lived with the kids who this DOES NOT WORK for.

My kids (apart from easy child, probably) are Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD). They can argue amazingly well, using logic that makes perfect sense - to them. They also (part of the high IQ as well) have a keen sense of injustice, especially if they feel they are on the receiving end. This makes them all the more determined to argue.

It comes back to - WHY does this child not want to comply? And in Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD), there can be a number of reasons, all vitally important, to the child. Until you can understand these reasons, you cannot circumvent them. And circumventing is THE ONLY way. To simply stand on your digs and insist - no go.

So why doesn't he want to put his bike away? There could be a number of reasons. And you have to be sufficiently plugged in to identify them fast. You wouldn't be asking him to put his bike away if he was still playing with it - so for this moment, the bike is not important. With an Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) kid, and a number of other conditions, whatever he is doing NOW has utmost importance. Maybe he is watching ants scurrying to avoid a trickle of water from the garden hose. Maybe he's inside playing a computer game. But whatever it is, first find the logical break. "How long before you can stop what you're doing for five minutes?"
If it's already beginning to rain, then clearly there is no argument - the evidence is there. It's like the mad scramble of "All hands on deck!" to rescue the washing when the rain begins.
We're talking here about the need to get the child to do something, when HE feels there is no need.

When you find yourself being drawn into argument, you risk losing. However, when you find yourself being forced towards using "because I said so," you risk building an increasing load of resentment that in the future could lead to a higher risk of failure. With some kids, you can risk meltdown.

There are other options. Depending on your circumstances, on what sort of conditions you are dealing with in your kids, you make a judgement call.

And when the debate begins, you need to pay attention to the logic and not let yourself get sidetracked. This can be mentally exhausting, but it is important FOR YOU to stop what YOU are doing and pay attention. Your future discipline depends on this.

Example -

Parent: "difficult child, please come and put your bike away in the garage."
difficult child: "I'm busy right now, I want to ride in the morning anyway, so it may as well stay out."
Parent: "Your bike needs to be put away tonight. It will only take you a minute to get it out in the morning."
difficult child: "It'll be fine."
Parent [taking deep breath] : "They have forecast possible rain, you need to get the bike safely away. I understand you're busy right now. Get your game to a save point, or a point where you can pause. Then you can get your bike safely away in a couple of minutes, and go back to your game knowing your bike is safe."
difficult child: "It probably won't rain anyway."
Parent: "Maybe. Maybe not. But I know how much you love to do bike riding. I also know how hard you have worked to keep that bike working well, and the chain moving freely. If you have to deal with a frozen chain again it will severely eat into your bike riding time. A few minutes now will save you a lot of grief, hard work and lost time later on. So come on, do it now. If you need time to get to a save point, I will remind you in five minutes time. OK?"

difficult child may have tried to lead the discussion to a point where he can say, "The task is not necessary," but Parent stayed on track and also pointed out the consequences TO HIM if the bike was damaged or got wet.
Other possible consequences - the bike could be a trip hazard. It could get nicked (purloined, stolen). The paint could fade, the plastic bits could get brittle and break.

When it becomes clear to the child that you are thinking form their point of view and the logic still shows that Your Will Be Done, then you are going to get more compliance, especially over time with repeated success.

The book Andy recommends has some very valuable points - especially in not allowing yourself to be deflected. That is where we so often go astray and our kids get away with using distraction techniques. And remember, every time the kids succeed with their tactics, they get reinforced to try it again. Deflection is a common technique - kids have used it successfully for years. And it works - because parents do not pay full attention. Think about when you have most problems - generally it is when you are busy, trying to get ready in a rush to go out, to receive visitors, trying to spring clean - we are not paying attention to the kids. And they either get up to mischief, or choose those times to clash. Sometimes they clash because they resent our inattention and sometimes they are being opportunistic - "she's distracted right now; so maybe she won't notice if I try out my new Superman cape off the garage roof."

Respect works. And to show respect (and also protect ourselves as parents) we MUST pay attention and also be aware of where our own emotions are coming from. If we've been distracted because we're watching our favourite TV show and the kids come in and make a lot of noise and get disruptive, they are not privy to how much they have frustrated us. So if/when we rage at them for making us miss our favourite TV show, it's a bolt from the blue for them. A total shock, no warning and seeming to be VERY unjust.
Mind you, difficult child 3 did this just now, to husband. Thankfully, husband had the presence of mind to simply hold up his hand to difficult child 3, signalling silence for a minute, and then to reinforce it with, "SHUSH!" He followed through with immediately responding to difficult child 3 when the TV program segment finished (about a minute). difficult child 3, like a lot of Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) kids, is totally egocentric and although we are working on this, Rome wasn't burnt in a day. We're not going to suddenly achieve a "Eureka!" moment on egocentricity, right when we most need it in our favourite TV show. So we do what husband did - grit our teeth, stay calm, get the fragment of personal space we can and THEN deal with difficult child with our full attention.

And yes, I explain. I even draw the scenario, from their point of view. Because for us, this is what works.

I also base a lot of my parenting on my own extremely vivid memories of childhood, and the things I resented the most. I now realise that my memories are far more vivid than most. The things I hated being done to me as a kid made me take a vow - to never forget what it felt like, to never be told anything, have things explained, etc. For me as a child - it was worse than being ignored. It was sending me a message that I did not matter to anyone, that my requests for answers were meaningless, that I was a source of amusement for others at best, an annoyance and waste of space at worst. Not all adults were like this, but to me it felt that most were. Those adults who showed me that I was of value, I had something to contribute and something to respect - it is they who I try to emulate now. My role model was the church minister we had when I was 2 to 9 years old. He left a very strong, lasting impression of a man who genuinely valued everybody regardless of age or status.

I see this same attitude now in most of difficult child 3's teachers. And if they are using similar techniques to mine, there must be something of value in them for them to be adopted by the best representatives of Australia's teaching profession.

Respect the child, even if he doesn't show respect to you - because sometimes that is the only way to teach respect.
Respect yourself and if you need to, gently correct inappropriate behaviour and model the correct.
Answer questions, explain reasons, be open to change if it is appropriate.
Be prepared to admit mistakes and apologise, but require the same in return. Politely.

It works.

Again, you use what works for you, and you need to leave what does not. If you are trying to cope with a tantruming, non-verbal two year old, you need to be inventive. And you need to lower your standards in a lot of areas, until the child is older and more capable.

Being a parent is not easy. Sometimes there is no right answer. All we can do is pick the one that is least wrong.

Marg

 

[threebabygirls]

Thanks for the ideas.