OMG - things are bad - and apparently I am the one to blame

witzend

Well-Known Member
I want you to know that I am only offering my opinion and that I understand you don't have to take my advice. I am on the outside looking in and I don't have to live your life or Matt's life, so it's probably easy for me to armchair quarterback.

I think you need to let the control go. I think Matt will hate you forever if you don't, and that Matt will never be anything other than an incapable little boy if you don't. I also feel that you will never be happy if you don't let go of his problems and start working personally on the issue of why you have such a strong need to fix Matt.

I'm sure I've made you angry, and that wasn't my point. In so far as what is going on with you and Matt it looks like a train wreck to me and I would never forgive myself for not offering advice that I felt would help when what I see is two people who are so interested in what the other is doing wrong that they are destroying their own lives. I care about you and want you to be happy. You can be angry if you want. I expect you will be. Just so we're understood, I'm only saying these things because your posts honestly scare me to death for you.

I'm not going to debate it with anyone. It's not a conclusion that I came to this very instant, it's well thought out. I don't care if people abuse me for offering my opinion. I think my words speak for themselves, and there's need no explanation or justification. Just that we love you and we want you to be healthy.
 

susiestar

Roll With It
Steely,

I have no clue what the program is thinking, or what is going on with Matt. I do know that beating yourself up over any of this will simply confuse things and be really cruel to YOU. You don't deserve cruel. If the new job has you exhausted you may be too tired to really see what is going on. Almost everything looks better after a decent night's sleep. (My Dad has always told my mom, my aunts, and I this when we exhaust ourselves and get caught in a loop like the one you are in. Makes me madder than snot that he is right. every. single. blinkin'. time. Idiot men aren't supposed to be right every time like that. Or at least that is what I think every time. )

You NEED to do whatever it takes to get a few decent nights' sleep and recharge. NOTHING can be helped until then, not really.

My thinking is more along the lines of Witz. It will anger you. I am sorry. It is said with love and with the understanding that you will probably choose to do otherwise and that is OK. It really is. I totally understand that you probably NEED to do otherwise. We are still here for you and we still love you. We will still love you after you tell us all to go slurp an egg.

Right now you are in an emotional airplane. It is on a pretty scary course and the oxygen masks have come down. Will you keep trying to put Matt's on while he fights you to the point you collapse and cannot do anything at all because you are unconscious and dying from lack of oxygen? Or will you put your mask on and THEN fight Matt to put his on?
 

DaisyFace

Love me...Love me not
Steely--

I find that I agree with SLSH that this is emotional blackmail. I can think of no other "treatment" or "program" or "therapy plan" that does not welcome second opinions.

Why is this "absolute trust" in their program required? Why are you not allowed to peek behind the curtain? What's the big mystery that has to be hidden from you--and yet that you are supposed to trust will be the big miracle? Is this like the secret recipe for kentucky fried chicken or something?

And if you have no way to openly communicate with Matt about this whole thing--how do you know whether he trusts the program? Whether he actually needs to continue, be rescued, or what...?

I don't mean to make you second-guess yourself--but I agree that this whole thing has a very strange "vibe" to it.

I will send ((((hugs)))) for emotional support and wisdom--to help you get a few ideas fast about which is the right thing to do.

Best,

--DaisyFace
 

Steely

Active Member
Umm wait a minute. I am super confused. What is it, Witz and Susie, that you are suggesting that I do?
Are you suggesting that I am doing the wrong thing by keeping him in the program?
Are you suggesting that by getting him help I am controlling him and destroying our lives?
Can you please clarify?
What is it that you guys are suggesting?
I am not angry, just baffled by the kind of out of the left field comments.
"start working personally on the issue of why you have such a strong need to fix Matt."
Um - I didn't know putting Matt in a program was a need for me to fix Matt.
Do you remember that he clocked me a year ago? That is why he is in the program. Not because I need a perfect kid, or want to remain enmeshed in his life. He is a safety hazard both to himself and others. He is still being violent.
"two people who are so interested in what the other is doing wrong that they are destroying their own lives."
Um, again, how is Matt in anyway trying to figure out what I am doing wrong? He never complains to me about me! He really couldn't care less about me.
I want all feedback and input, because I want to be an evolved person. One who can look at life and not have Matt hate me for life. So I want all of your input. But lets make sure it has credence before throwing it out there. Lets sure it makes sense.
 

Star*

call 911........call 911
Steely,

Recently I've had some struggles in which I've tried to run around and make everyone see my son the way I do; through a Mothers eyes. I wanted them to see this vulnerable, unsocial, unable, mentally behind, emotionally defunct child who couldn't possibly get along in the real world like I do. I argued that here is a kid who has no education, no job, is a felon, can't even count change or hardly tell time on a wall clock - and I'm supposed to allow him to go out into the world on a train to be around one of the most horrible men I've ever met in my life. Not only to see him, but to spend time with him. HOW DARE THEY say I should ALLOW this. Not only ALLOW THIS but lets buy his ticket too. I was furious. Oh furious doesn't even begin to describe the emotions I had. Livid, urge to spit nails and hang fence - you name it. I was untouchable.

I couldn't not explain to anyone how ridiculous this entire idea, or folly was. I thought everyone had lost their mind. Were they looking at the same boy I was? The one I had protected, sheltered, sacrificed, cared for, loved, taken care of for the last 19 years? The answer back hurt. It was "You mean the one you are "Coddling, and Mommying at 19 years of age? Sure, when does HE get to live his life and make his own mistakes on his own and start to become a man? Or do you intend on having him hate you for the rest of his life because you continue to hold him back here where everything is safe for you?" ....I.....Was.....BEYOND.....Furious.

Mommy-ing? Coddling? Babying? Holding him back? But don't you SEE he's ....different? And the answer back was "Of course he's different, but how does he ever learn if you're always there to pick him up and fix it for him? How does he ever know what to do on his own if Mommy is always there to (fill in the blank)?

Steely - it took a lot for him to let....no put my son on a train and let him go two states away with no cell phone, and $30 in his pocket. He had no plans (his choice) when he got there. He had no ride to pick him up (when he got there) He had no place to stay (his plans) He had no idea who was going to feed him (His plans) He had no idea how he was going to get back (his plan again). He just knew he had to get there, and he knew I needed to let him. Despite my best attempts to thwart every plan? I needed to let him go. I needed to let him go for him and for me. He needed to go.

When he was in residential? I went through a lot of similar times like you are going through with Matt. I was told that we were enmeshed. We had a relationship that was co-dependent. It was considered unhealthy because being co-dependent on someone is not healthy ever, whether it's you and your son, your son and his Mom. Your husband and his wife, your wife and her Mom....doesn't matter who the two people are? Co-dependency is not healthy. It's also not easy to hear that this is a potential problem. First because well, for me? I thought the term was unnecessary - THEY HAD NO IDEA what Dude and I had been through together. We were all we had - ever through times that most people should have died from. Through times when everyone else left us. Through things that no one else could have survived...it was just me, and him. How dare they say - we were co-dependent, and enmeshed. We weren't enmeshed - we were survivors. Well, truth is? Taking that stance means? You're co-dependent. That type of relationship GETS you through the times that ARE traumatic and you do survive - but after? Kids need to break from their parents and move in a different and healthy direction, and so do parents, but you get trapped (as a unit) in depending on each other and a lot of times - you just get stuck there and stay there. So you grow that way. You don't think it's bad -----rather you think it's honorable or you see it as strength between a Mother and son or between two family members - like kids who survive foster care or some other trauma.

This is what it came to with Dude. He became SO dependent on me that when anyone else tried to discipline him? He was oppositional. He acted out. Then with me? He didn't listen either. It just became such a mess. Even today? At 19 it's better than it was? But there were months at a time I was told "If you don't break communication with him and let him learn to trust someone else? You'll loose him. He has GOT to learn to be dependent on his own thoughts and actions." So at 10 years old? I left him to his own thoughts for 6 months. No contact. When he was 5 years old? I had no contact for 1 month. It was heck on earth....he was in the state hospital. It helped. He was able to depend on himself. He did not feel abandoned. He knew I loved him.

At 19 - I would caution you that this is possibly his last chance at trying to pull things together FOR HIM - this is HIS last chance. This placement has nothing to do with you. This is all about Matt. Matt's future. Not how they see Steely...or what they think you've done. They are so far beyond that in his therapy at this point - What they are talking to him about on a daily basis is "THIS IS MATTS LIFE...MATT IS RESPONSIBLE....WHAT IS MATT DOING FOR MATT?? MATT HAS NO ONE TO BLAME FOR HIS ACTIONS BUT MATT....MATT CAN NOT BLAME HIS MOM ANY MORE....and THAT is why they are telling you.....DO NOT CALL.

If he gets a call.....he can get upset......then get sullen.....then throw a tantrum.....and then he can go back to EVERYONE AND SAY "MY MOM SAID, MY MOM UPSET ME, MY MOM XXX....and BLAME ALL HIS PROBLEMS ON YOU.." without the call? HE HAS ONLY MATT TO ANSWER TO FOR HIS TANTRUMS, HIS OUTBURSTS, HIS BEHAVIOR....and THAT is NOT COMFORTABLE FOR MATT....and MATT NEEDS SOMEONE TO BLAME SO HE IS CALLING THE ONE PERSON HE ALWAYS HAS AND NOW HE CAN'T SO HE's GUILTING YOU INTO FEELING BAD....

LET HIM ALONE.....LET him work on MATT......TELL THAT Residential Treatment Center (RTC) that they have your TOTAL and 100% cooperation ......and that you get what they are trying to do.....and that you want MATT to grow up, but it's just hard for you to hear him hurt.....and you'd appreciate a progress call maybe once a week....that you'd look forward to that from his counselor.

I'm sorry hon - I know.....I know how you feel about things being away from you and how it hurts and how it gets personalized. BUT THIS? This is NOTHING to do with you - UNLESS -----UNLESS you butt in and "save" him. It's not saving if you do. I thought it was too. It's not. And boy does it sting. Especially when another board member calls you on the phone and says "You're DF is right - you had to let him go and you can't be Mommy." and you think....I know....I know...why are they (board member and DF right) and I'm wrong? ----she has kids....HE has kids...and HER kids are difficult child....so she's not going to tell me to do things that are wrong??? No.....UGH....They're right. and......I .......am.....(wrong) wrote that really small because that's what I felt like. Really small.

I can't tell you to or not to rush up there, burst through the door and jump up on a conference table in furry ugg boots and a furry Russian hat yelling "COME ON MATTHEW I'm taking you out of this HE77 HOLE." and then you drive home in your Cougar Jeep, and live happily ever after, he takes the spare room, gets a job, goes to Adult Ed, you never argue again, he gets a night job, helps you with the bills, meets a nice girl, moves out, helps you with the bills still, goes on to community college, lands a great 6 figure job (still helps you with the bills) and things just keep going in a positive direction and you laugh every Christmas about you bursting through the doors in your furry Ugg boots that one week before Christmas yelling "I'll save you Matthew." ---because it could happen.

But, the reality of it isn't as likely and that's the thing that YOU have to really put your thinking cap on now for and ask yourself - IF I do remove Matt from there AMA....what happens to him then? How does MY life change? What does this mean for him? School? Work? What happens IF I don't get him disablity...because Dude got turned down twice now....and we're just gobsmacked about that, and he can't GET a job....how about driving? A car, insurance, gas...arguing, holes in the wall? Your neighbor - the arguing, his education, driving him to school, and on and on.

It's a lot to weigh out with a 19 year old man.....and I say man because despite what you think about him in your head and heart - in HIS head and heart - he's a man. He's no longer a boy.

Just something to consider. I hope something in all of this rambling helps you. It was hard for me too. really Really.

Hugs & Love
Star
 

Hound dog

Nana's are Beautiful
Star you put that so utterly well.

And I never even looked at the Residential Treatment Center (RTC) regulating calls so that Matt has to take respinsiblity for his actions. That makes sense the way you explained it.

Steely ((((hugs)))) I bowed out of advising because I realized this is out of my league. But you and Matt are in my thoughts and my prayers.
 

Steely

Active Member
Star. That was perfect. You summed up exactly where my head space is. Thank you. I know that is the message they are trying to tell me, and I just need to wrap my head around it. THANKS.
 

katya02

Solace
Star ... fantastic summary. One that I will print out and paste on my bathroom mirror to remind me when my codependent habits come creeping back ... thank you. :)

Steely ... hugs. I can't say anything more, or better, than Star and the others have.
 

witzend

Well-Known Member
Umm wait a minute. I am super confused. What is it, Witz and Susie, that you are suggesting that I do?
Are you suggesting that I am doing the wrong thing by keeping him in the program?

No. I'm suggesting you let them treat him and that you clear things like privileges with them before you tell him what you think is going on.
Are you suggesting that by getting him help I am controlling him and destroying our lives?
Can you please clarify?

No. Please don't twist my words. He needs help, and you need to either let them help him and stop trying to be an active part of the treatment, or let them release him. They have told you that you can't have it both ways.

I am not angry, just baffled by the kind of out of the left field comments.
"start working personally on the issue of why you have such a strong need to fix Matt."
Um - I didn't know putting Matt in a program was a need for me to fix Matt.

You said "Why would the program not see how willing I am to make things happen for Matt?" You don't seriously think that you can make anything happen for him mental health-wise, do you?

Do you remember that he clocked me a year ago? That is why he is in the program.

The same reason we put our son in a program. Where he got the staff turned into thinking it was all our fault for trying to micromanage his life and maybe they would have clocked husband too given what terrible parents we were. They told us we interfered with their treatment program and refused to involve us. Except our M was only 16. Sound familiar?

Not because I need a perfect kid, or want to remain enmeshed in his life. He is a safety hazard both to himself and others. He is still being violent.
"two people who are so interested in what the other is doing wrong that they are destroying their own lives."
Um, again, how is Matt in anyway trying to figure out what I am doing wrong? He never complains to me about me! He really couldn't care less about me.
I want all feedback and input, because I want to be an evolved person. One who can look at life and not have Matt hate me for life. So I want all of your input. But lets make sure it has credence before throwing it out there. Lets sure it makes sense.

Nobody said you wanted a perfect kid, and quite honestly, I don't appreciate that you are putting words into my mouth. Every word I said makes sense.

Bottom line. They want your support and trust or they are going to kick him out of the program. Do you want him there or not? This is about your choice.

This is the best advice I have to give. And it matches exactly the advice Star gave. It's just not as eloquent as Star's. I'm not going to be the bad guy here because I didn't take an hour and a half to make it eloquent the way Star does.
 
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DammitJanet

Well-Known Member
Star is right. When Cory was in his locked facility we didnt have access to know really what went on inside the place. We were only allowed into one small section of the building that housed the visiting rooms and the therapy rooms. Everything else was off limits and behind locked doors. I never saw his room or the area they lived in. I did see the outside recreational area which was fenced in. The Unit was on the second floor and they always brought Cory down on an elevator along with a staff member when we arrived. I was told things but who knows how much was true. I did get reports before family therapy.
 

Fran

Former desparate mom
What I was doing wasn't working. I had to let go and trust that someone else could make a difference. I always had an eye out for abuse(my son was considerably younger) but I let the program work even when it made me squirm because I didn't have anything better to offer.
I wanted my son to heal.
I continuously ask myself "who does it serve?" when I have bouts of righteous indignation.
It's difficult to not get "wrapped around the axle" when alone. You play stuff over and over in your head until it's not as balanced as when you bounce it off of someone you trust and they give you perspective. I didn't always appreciate or agree with a trusted opinion but it made me stop and ask myself if I could look at a situation from another set of eyes. Don't shoot the message bearers for helping all of us to look from another viewpoint.
 
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N

Nomad

Guest
I had a similar thought and experience to Fran.
Keep an eye out for abuse. But understand that perhaps you are very sensitive and raw from years of stress.
Limit questions and do not be accusatory. Ask the educational consultant most of your questions.
Let go as best as you can and re-focus yourself on other things in life.
Right now surely you are not feeling so "hot."
Most importantly, what is your goal (s) in all of this? Consider writing it (them) down.
What is it going to take to get you to a better attitude, to a better "place?"
Can you reach out and grab for that thing? That thought? AND ..hold on to it for the sake of your happiness and the ability to move forward and ultimately obtain what you want (or at least get much closer to it).
 

Mattsmom277

Active Member
I feel so out of depth reaching out to you Steely in a situation with your son that I've never been in such as you are, with my difficult child. My difficult child, when in placement, was still a minor, a YOUNG minor. I picked the placement, I picked the treatment plan, I required discussion and information and contact with difficult child. I got the same response as you, a back off response from those working with my difficult child. I wanted to scream because their agenda didn't match mine for difficult child. I couldn't see how they could treat problems they didn't know about. difficult child certainly wasn't in a place to be honest about issues occuring. As a parent, I had the information the staff could use that difficult child wouldnt' provide. But they said butt out. WHAT? HUH? I went through some big vents here on the board.

When I realized that the program wasn't helping and that I was butting my head against a wall, I simply stopped. I said fine. I'll butt out. It KILLED me inside. I most definitly had his best interests at heart and couldnt' see how this would work to benefit difficult child. I couldnt' stand no contact, or contact based on THEIR rules, THEIR schedule. But I did it. I did it to show them that it wouldn't be what difficult child needed and it would prevent them helping difficult child.

Funny enough, IT HELPED! It required difficult child to stand on his own two feet, face his demons so to speak. With mental health issues etc, we are so very extra protective of our kids. A easy child turning to drugs or alcohol, we tend to more easily put in a program and make them do the work. With mental health it seems so much more difficult (not saying drug/alcohol addicted kids in treatment isn't difficult). But with mental health, we doubt their ability to function without that support etc.

The thing is, we all know this, that when our kids become adults, even not well functioning adults, young adults, without life skills and responsability skills etc, we prevent ourselves from seeing our kids as the adults they are. For so many various very valid reasons. But the fact is, your Matt, just like MY Matt, have to function life long in a adult world. It is hard to think we let them go to make choices, guide their own treatment, can't call us when they want, we can't call when we want, etc. We often feel they are far from capable. Probably they are far from capable. however I thought to myself: What is better for Matt in the LONG TERM? Learning from trying and falling if necessary, at an earlier age, or living a entire life not facing his own issues and challenges in a head on way? I mean, they can participate, but as adults that they are, if we are contributing to their treatment, we are holding them back from those sections we help with, from learning to find their own coping skills for those areas. Know what I mean??

I look at my mother today. She's a sad sad woman Steely. I cannot stand that future for my son. I'd rather him fail today if needed, then try again etc so that he can succeed later. I do not want him to fail at LIFE. He can fail at a program and try again because he realizes at some point he could have benefited more by his own involvement. Or he can feel there is always a fall back person (mom). Even a small part of him having you to fall back on right now, can be detrimental for him and prevent him from a small aspect of progress he really NEEDS to make.

I dont' care at all for the method that you are being told to butt out. Cuz face it, they are saying Butt out Mom, he'll call when he calls. I would respect them more if they said it that bluntly. There is no shame in what you wish you could do. There is no shame in saying there is nothing you wouldn't do. I ask you with love and support: If there is nothing you are not willing to do, have you considered for this period of time, to just do Nothing?

it goes against the grain. But so does tossing out drug addicted, felony convicted, thieving and lying abusive adult children. It is NEVER going to be a choice we as parents WANT to make. But sometimes it is the one we have to make. Maybe this isn't the program for your son. maybe their goals won't get him where he wants to go. Maybe all he will gain from being there is the knowledge that the ball is FULLY in his court. Would that be horrible? To know mom awaits to speak to him when possible, and looks forward to it. But that he is in control. He is you know. He can either learn to drive the boat completely, or learn most of it but not how to start the engine, or how to fuel the gas tank when it empties in order to keep driving the boat. Know what I mean?? I don't know necessarily that it is fair to give him partial tools at this stage.

I think the hardest part sounds like the portion where it seems his treatment staff are placing alot on your plate, at your door. Well, nobody says they have to be RIGHT. It really doesn't have to matter what they believe of you or your son Steely. Any tools they teach him can only help him in lifes journey. Take what you can use, and leave the rest right? Anything he gains there is to his benefit. So to heck with the staff or even the program Steely. He's there now. If not there, where? Another place? What would be different? Back to you? What would be different?

You also have alot on your plate right now. You have the RIGHT to take care of yourself, your personal life, your job, your joy, your happiness, your short and long term future. And lets face it, our adult children factor in for visits, phone calls etc. But at that stage, our lives are our own. I hate to see you trying to balance all of his stuff as well as your own. And your happiness is JUST as valuable and vital as your sons. He can't fix your unhappiness. He can't help you build the future that will bring your life joy and fulfillment and contentment. Only you can do that. Just as only your Matt can do that for himself.

Give yourself a chance to step out of warrior mom mode. You're not turning your back. You arent accepting that you created your difficult child to be a difficult child. If you are, STOP Steely. Please. Because you DO NOT OWN THAT.

I'm sorry you are feeling misunderstood in a place that has become such a place of support for you. I truly know that I can't see how anyone here has said anything without love and with your well being and your sons at heart. I know inside you know that. i also know that sometimes its hard to step out of the life we've all lived so long. Your job now is to live YOUR BEST LIFE. And for your son to learn what HIS best life is going to be, and how he's going to go about it. Just as I had to let my mother make her choices. She chooses to not properly manage her illness. The price her life pays is a high one. But like your son, he's an adult. That doesn't stop love, and prayers, and hope and desires to help. The key is helping when it is to their actual benefit. I dont' think you are trying to "fix Matt". I think you are a mom who wants to help him find his way, hoping he'll do the work. I dont' blame you. Maybe, just maybe, helping him find the way to make it work, is stepping back from the role of the person who finds the help, takes him to the help, asks what is the help, decides if it is the right help etc.

You know you are adored here and supported and nobody means to hurt you. I hope that you aren't a stranger from here on out. You'd be sorely missed and it be a loss to many people. (((hugs)))
 
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