OUT OF CONTROL 15 y.o. with- ODD

[everywoman]

"i get so scared that he's going to make a bad choice and none of us are going to be able to help him. then what???"


You love love 'em anyway. Try all the interventions you can. Talk to everyone you know. Check out every program. But understand..there is not magic pill or "one size fits all" answer. Many of us here have walked your road. You have to develop rhino-skin. You have to learn to be an advocate when you need to be.. Then, you have to learn to know when to let go and let natural consequences take place. Parenting a difficult child is much like walking a tightrope. You look ahead. You don't look back or down. You see a goal in the future and work to accomplish it "someday." You love them always---even when you can't stand them---even when they steal from you and break your heart---even when they are unlovable. And you go on to the next day, the next battle, the next twist in the road...

 

[timer lady]

Tara,

It's not a matter of what you or your brother did - it's difficult children ability to tolerate intimacy.

I had many hopes for the tweedles AND they were my hopes. Not necessarily in the best interest of kt or wm. My job, as a parent, is to raise them in a safe environment & to be law abiding citizens. Having said that, after a certain point, it becomes our little wonders responsibility to make choices that are positive.

husband & I accepted the fact that kt & wm can only tolerate a certain level of intimacy; regress when agitated & have little sense of self or permanency. Our visits with wm are little more than an hour each week - it's all he can tolerate. kt tolerates little intimacy or nurturing. She becomes agitated when asked for a hug.

I can & will do all possible to get kt & wm to their highest level of functionality in the community. Pursue any & all options that are available - in the end, it will be up to the tweedles. The same applies to your difficult child.

by the way, our attachment specialist for wm is an adoptive parent. Her adopted son could not tolerate the emotional demands & intimacy in the home. He, like wm, spent years in a treatment facility or foster therapy home. To this day, he loves his parents yet at the annual family reunions can only accept (tolerate) a day or two before he leaves (the reunion last 7 days). Attachment therapist has accepted that this is her difficult child.

 

[meowbunny]

does anyone have any insight into Residential Treatment Facility (RTF)'s or military schools? i've researched some RTFs and found mixed opinions. i also worry that because he already has some type of attachment disorder, will he feel like we were giving up on him if we sent him to one?

They can work. My daughter was in an Residential Treatment Center (RTC) that helped her tremendously -- at least the running away, stealing from others and cutting school stopped. It didn't stop her from quitting high school the first chance she got. It didn't stop her from lying every time she opened her mouth. It didn't stop the manipulations and bad attitudes. It also taught her how to make friends, make less-risky decisions and helped with bonding to an extent.

I can tell you that I very carefully explained to my daughter why she was going to a treatment facility. I think that on an intellectual level, she understood. However, emotionally she either did not understand or she simply uses it as a tool against me. Not sure which.

Do research it carefully. First, make sure you have an accurate diagnosis for your nephew. Then, find an Residential Treatment Facility (RTF) that deals with that the type of behavior your nephew is engaging in and that knows how to treat for his specific diagnoses.

I would not recommend a military school for a damaged child. The odds of him staying there are slim -- either he will be expelled or he will run away.

 

[tara w]

katmom...
i think you hit the perverbial "nail." as i've said before, the love is unconditional. i don't know if i should be ashamed to admit this, but i give more to him than my bio nieces. i guess that's why it's so hard to understand WHY they do what they do when they are loved so very much.

how could they steal from people they "love"? how could they lie and deceive people who love them. sometimes i feel like he uses "i love you" as an excuse and he doesn't really know what those words mean. he uses those three words to make himself feel better- like no matter what he does, evrything's o.k. again.

i admit, i'm a fool at times. i don't know when to set limits because i'm afraid he'll feel rejected. i would NEVER let my bio nieces treat me the way he treats me.

when do you stop feeling sorry? when do you stop allowing what happened in his past to affect how he treats people in the present???

 

[tara w]

timer lady...

you're right... the hopes i have for t. (my nephew) are MY hopes. and to some degree, i guess that's selfish on my part. just because i was raised with love and a certain set of values, i believe that love can "help" anything or anyone. that's the hardest thing for me to wrap my mind around... not everyone thinks that way or accepts the love you have to offer.

i believe in t. i HAVE to. i believe that one day he will realize that he's a wonderful person and that people really do love him. even if it drives me crazy, i will not give up on him.

 

[everywoman]

"when do you stop feeling sorry? when do you stop allowing what happened in his past to affect how he treats people in the present???"

When you realize that your life and your family's life has suffered enough---at 15 he is old enough to know that life treated him badly, but that it wasn't you or your family who caused this treatment. His choices are his choices. There will come a time unless he changes his actions when you can' get him out of the trouble he causes. You would much rather have that happen now and not when he turns 17 and is legally an adult.

 

[busywend]

Tara, I do not think you should feel bad for treating him differently than your nieces - at least for his sake. There are parents here on the board that have to treat their own kids that live in the same house differently.
It could however, affect your relationship with your nieces if they watch this happen.

 

[jbrain]

how could they steal from people they "love"? how could they lie and deceive people who love them. sometimes i feel like he uses "i love you" as an excuse and he doesn't really know what those words mean. he uses those three words to make himself feel better- like no matter what he does, evrything's o.k. again.

Hi Tara,
there is no understanding it if you are thinking of them as "normal." My 19 yr old bio dtr has been stealing from us and lieing since she was small. This is not the way she was raised, there is no "reason" for it except that she has mental health problems.

Still, you have to set boundaries, in fact with these kids structure and well defined boundaries are crucial. Your nephew is going to have no respect for you if you let him walk all over you and it isn't going to help him either. I worried about my dtr feeling abandoned and rejected too (she went to Residential Treatment Center (RTC) when she was 16) but the more I coddled her or treated her differently because of her problems the worse she was. Eventually, when she was 18 I had to make her leave our home--she had no respect for anyone's privacy, possessions, etc. and would do nothing to help herself. She is doing much better now that she has to--she is a survivor.

Have to go now--take care,
Jane

 

[Sunlight]

perhaps a talk with him??
I am sorry your past was so hard on you. I am so glad you are in our family and I know you must feel the love we give.

 

[rejectedmom]

It appears that your difficult child has been evaluated from a psycological perspective. You mention drug use by the mother. I strongly suggest that your brother get a MRI of his son's brain and have them look specifically at the structure called the Corpus Callosum. This structure is the ganglea of nerves that intergrates the left and right hemisphere of the brain. It can be affected by prenatal drug and alchol use, physical abuse and other traumas. Behaviors such as those you describe (also autism, schizophrenia, Fetal Alcohol Syndrome (FAS), PTSD and many other MH issues) are often present in people with a malformed or malfunctioning corpus callosum. These are people who typically have normal intellegence but lack wisdom and the ability to learn from their mistakes. I have been doing much research on this matter since my son was born with a rare genetic disease in which this structure is often missing or malformed. As an infant it was determinned that he had the structure but no further monitoring was ever done. My son has been a difficult child to raise his entire life. Having been adopted he was always loked at from a Physcological view and was treated with drugs and therapy all to no real advantage. His behaviors were always destructive, defiant and repetitive. He never seemed to learn from his mistakes and he cannot project to the possible consequences of his actions. Newer research into the function of this brain structure is giving ninsight into behaviors such as these and the treatments and prognosis for autistic indivituals. -RM

 

[BusynMember]

Tara, my son used to climb out of his crib and rock, banging his head all night. That is a huge red flag for high functioning autism. Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD) can co-exist with autistic spectrum, and autistic spectrum even LOOKS like Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD) because the kids often don't make good eye contact or like to be held or have inappropriate social skills. I can NOT emphasize how well my son is doing, however we got him at age two and he didn't have the co-morbid attachment issues. They actually made us go through an attachment assessment before we were allowed to file for adoption. THe big test was that we had to leave the room and they wanted to see if the three year old would cry for us or miss us or if he'd be fine without us. HE SCREAMED, "MOMMMMMMMYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!" so we passed :smile: He was a very difficult toddler. His behavior has REALLY improved with mega-interventions, but no medications helped him. Sounds like part of what your child is going through is Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD), but I doubt it's the entire picture.
My older adopted kids were all very "me" centered when we got them. They simply weren't used to intimacy and didn't want it nor did they appreciate having it. The latter two, including the one who had to leave our family, USED our good-heartedness. It was the only thing he knew how to do with this foreign thing called love. The early years impact these kids forever. Your brother is doing the best he can. The outcome is out of his hands. I *would* encourage him to have a complete evaluation on the child before I delved too deeply into Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD). I'm pretty sure that he would have attachment issues, however I'm also pretty sure, from experience, that there is more than that going on. I hope your brother has some biological info on this child's family. THey helps when the Psychiatrist or neuropsychologist does an assessment. I wish you all luck and keep on persevering.

 

[BusynMember]

One last thing. in my opinion, things like military school, where the child will be away from family and expected to "tow the line", is inappropriate. He's not bad. He's disturbed and probably has psychiatric or neurological disorders and, in my opinion, this won't "whip him into shape." He likely will end up getting kicked out. You can try an Residential Treatment Center (RTC), but I would want his diagnosed to the max first. If he does have fetal alcohol syndrome or any form of autism or bipolar an Residential Treatment Center (RTC) will likely be unable to help him. These are not behavioral issues--they are real medical problems that need addressing. You also need to be aware that kids that age, with his background, are especially vulnerable to substance abuse and, even if it doesn't seem like it, your brother may want to give him a surprise drug test. (((Hugs)))

 

[DDD]

It might be helpful if you explore the Detachment books that are
highly recommended by some of our CD family. Just as the drug
and alcohol addiction families have to seek a way to function in
a healthy way as they wait for their loved one to "get it", so
many on this board have to learn to detach from the difficult children they so
love. Detachment does not mean withdrawal of love. Some of us
repeat the Serenity Prayer on a daily or nightly basis to help
us remember that we can not make everything all better. There
have been days and nights when the repeating of that Prayer has
been the only thing that has saved my sanity. DDD

 

[tara w]

thanks for all of your words...
t. (difficult child) didn't come home last night. he didn't go to school this a.m. and my brother (his father) realized that t. came home when no one was around, grabbed his own ATM card and left again. no note. no i'm sorry. nothing. he's gone again. and with cash in hand, i guess he's planning on staying out long enough to prove a point.

we (my bro and & i) had a meeting with t.'s phychologist/therapist this a.m. she was expecting t. but, as he was m.i.a., it was a bit impossible for him to be at the appointment.
she believes that t. is trying to sabotage his circumstances. almost like, "i'll destroy this and push you to your breaking point before you can destroy it for me."


her advice:

1. we need to establish rules and expectations (which we've done in the past to no avail) 2. if t. follows such rules, he gets privileges 3.if he chooses not to follow such rules, he doesn't get what he wants
4. if he fights the rules or tries to manipulate the rules, it is HIS CHOICE and natural consequences will eventually follow.

my brother is not to argue with t. and to say as little as possible except for "this is what i expect of you. these are the rules that i've created for you." if t. decides he doesn't WANT to follow them, it is his choice and should be left as such. there will be no more confrontation.

it's very easy for a stranger to sit across from you and tell you what to do. it's quite another thing when you don't know where your nephew/daughter/son/brother is and you're scared sh*tless. it's easy to say, "let him make his own choices, and he will learn by natural consequences" but they are no the one who sees him destroying not only HIS life, but the lives of those who love him. part of me feels like by following her advice we're just letting him do whatever he wants; but on the other hand, how can you MAKE someone do something?

i think about the natural consequences that we talked about today... what might that mean? police? theft? pregnancy? jail? i consider all of those all of those scenerios and hope that something will humble him before he ruins his life permanently.

 

[Sunlight]

tara, it sounds like you are scared and rightfully so. all the advice our psychiatric grps gave never helped my son. however it helped me cope. it helped me detach.

he led me on a merry chase for years. he did father a child I still worry about. his son is 3. he rarely bothers with him now. he ran away many times over the years and I stayed up nights seeking him out.

it is a worry. even when you report them as missing nothing can be done as they left on their own and the police have other bigger troubles to deal with.

so what can you do? if he breaks the law, call the cops. lock the door if he is out after midnight. tell him this is the way it will be. he is a big boy. he can find places to stay. we worry over them and while we worry they sleep at other people's houses. they do not like discomfort so be assured they will have a roof and food.

read the boundaries book by townsend and cloud. free to borrow at the library.

take care of you and your brother.

 

[BusynMember]

I also am not sure this child has the resources to MAKE good choices. He had so many bad years before he came to live with your brother. Unfortunately, the damage, from pre-natal/drugs to sexual abuse to lack of one caregiver to whatever genetic stuff he was born with...it puts our kids from foster care at a big disadvantage. Some are, so to speak, starting with two strikes on them. Your brother will always know he made his son's life better than it would have been, no matter what choices his son makes, or is ABLE to make. We never got much help from therapists either. I went to many due to my bipolar (I was forced to go in order to get medications, however never felt I got much help), and my son went, which was a bigger joke. Their advice didn't help, and they missed his Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) completely. All your family an do is try, and not expect him to respond the way a child who has always been loved responds. Of course, as you can see on the board, most of the kids whose parents are here are biological so that's no guarantee either. However, our adopted kids, who lived in foster care, are bigger puzzles because we can't look on their history and say, "We have bipolar in the background" "well, mom drank a lot during pregnancy," etc.
If your nephew turns out to have Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD), traditional therapy won't help anyways. His history is a red flag. If it were me, I'd check that out. Take care.You're a loving aunt.

 

[tara w]

i'm feeling ultra defeated right now. t. (difficult child) is home after spending the night at some kid's house who is a known dealer. if t.'s motive was to break my family, after 6 years, he's pretty much won. he tries to rationalize his behavior by telling his father, "you knew i had problems when you took me." like somehow that makes it all ok.

my oldest brother feels like t. should go back into the foster system. i am adamently against this. that's a guarantee that he will one day find himself in jail.

respite is an option, but is that just a band-aid? we don't have anything else to offer him. love wasn't enough, therapy, medication, threats... NOTHING WORKS!

i cringe to think about what will happen in the next 3 years until he turns 18.

 

[Nancy]

Tara,

I'm sorry you are going through this but it sounds like you and your brother are doing what you can to help your nephew. We adopted our daughter and last year she was where your nephew is now. She was hanging with a bunch of thugs and we never knew when she would come home or in what shape. We ended up filing unruly charges on her and she spent a weekend in juvenile detention. We called the police so many times on her that I knew most of them by name and many of them still remember me when they see me in the community.

This year she finally decided she was sick of being in toruble all the time and changed her friends and that made all the difference.

You said something that really struck me though...

"she believes that t. is trying to sabotage his circumstances. almost like, "i'll destroy this and push you to your breaking point before you can destroy it for me."

While my difficult child is not using drugs or alcohol anymore and isn't hanging with thugs or failing school, she still has a lot of anger inside that I believe comes from being adopted. Her birthday is next week and the past few weeks she has been very nasty at home. She does this every year close to her birthday or any holiday. I believe she wants us to be so angry with her that we won't want to make her birthday special and it will be a self fulfilling prophecy...she expects to be disappointed so she sets it up to happen. She destroys the event before we can do it for her....that's the way I believe she thinks. Her birthmother disappointed her and so her entire life has been spent in trying to make us disapooint her too.

I agree you should establish rules and stick to them. Be prepared to follow through on the consequences. We took a huge chance in involving the police and I don't advocate everyone do that. But we knew she would end up in jail if she didn't do something drastic.

Be prepared that you may not be able to save him from himself. He may have to hit bottom before he decides to change, if ever. But don't allow him to drive or get his license while he is acting out the way he is. Our difficult child will not be getting her license at 16 next week. We told her that until she gets her anger under control she has no business behind the wheel of a car.

I wish I had better answers.

Nancy

 

[BusynMember]

tara, if you don't have legal custody, it's your brothers decision. in my opinion let him handle it. His son is right. He had problems and still does and some may never be resolved. I think your brother should get involved, if he doesn't wish to evaluate him any more, at least in therapy for attachment disorder and for sexual abuse. Those are likely not the whole issues, but would you give back a biological child who didn't turn out the way you wanted? We sent our child away because he was dangerous, CPS came, and they gave us no choice--he had sexually abused our two younger kids and killed our animals, set fires, etc. Your brother doesn't have other kids. in my opinion, it's up to him what to wants to do, and he is probably torn apart enough without having other family members giving him advice. After your nephew is 18 it doesn't matter what happens because he is legally responsible for himself, however your brother will still love him. With your older brother and you and maybe your parents coming down on your brother who is an adult...in my opinion, this is not right, and he should be left alone. He has enough on his plate. I think your brother, who has worked in foster care, can make smart decisions. It isn't up to his older brother or you if t. goes to foster care or stays home. in my opinion, it's not a "family" decision--it is the father's decision. I hope t. gets re-evaluated and helped, to the degree that he can be. In the meantime, it is probably best to stop bombarding your brother with your opinions and advice. JMO, but I think that could make it even worse and harder on your brother.

 

[Nancy]

I forgot something...you said he was born in jail and never bonded with his mother. That goes a long way in explaining his behavior. He has never bonded with anyone and isn't about to at his age now. I think probably the best that you can do at this point is to set down the rules and give him consequences. But in the end it may mean an alternative living arrangement.

Residential Treatment Center (RTC)'s and therapeutic schools are filled with adopted children. I'm not suggesting that youshould go this route, just that many of these kids can no longer live at home because of their behavior.

Also someone suggesting reading the books Adopting the Hurt Child and Parenting the Hurt Child by Gregory Keck. Dr Keck runs an attachement therapy center and we actually took our difficult child there for treatment. It is controversial but obviously has worked for many. Attachment therapy is an option and you can look for one in your area if it is something you want to consider.

I too thought our difficult child should be so happy for the wonderful opportunities we have given her and realize what her life would have been like if she had not been adopted. Instead she has done everything in her power to push us all away. She has written in her blog on myspace that she loves fighting with her family because with every fight comes love??? I don't understand that kind of thinking at all. It is faulty thinking...thinking that is so far different from her sister's who was raised in the same house with the same horrible parents that raised her.

Nancy