Arttillygirl
New Member
thanks. We are very strict, especially my husband and I don't want to go behind his back.
Please Advise-before my son gets home!
- Thread starter Arttillygirl
- Start date
DammitJanet
Well-Known Member
Well no I wouldnt go behind husband's back because that is going to cause marital discord and triangulation by the child.
What really needs to happen is for husband to have a lightbulb moment and realize he cannot shelter his son forever.
Is there anyone that your husband trusts and admires that could have a word of prayer with him about this? Maybe a trusted pastor or someone? I have a very religious therapist who is very grounded on what teens are like. Maybe you could try pastoral counseling.
There has to be a compromise between your husband and your son on these things. He cant keep your son a child forever. Maybe what the compromise could be is that your son will keep the rap music to the cleaned versions and only listen to it on headphones. Also if he uses foul language because of it, then it goes. That might be a good compromise. Your son might be willing to "do to get" for that. As far as the movies...I think you are fighting a losing battle because he is over the age limit and he can go on his own.
What really needs to happen is for husband to have a lightbulb moment and realize he cannot shelter his son forever.
Is there anyone that your husband trusts and admires that could have a word of prayer with him about this? Maybe a trusted pastor or someone? I have a very religious therapist who is very grounded on what teens are like. Maybe you could try pastoral counseling.
There has to be a compromise between your husband and your son on these things. He cant keep your son a child forever. Maybe what the compromise could be is that your son will keep the rap music to the cleaned versions and only listen to it on headphones. Also if he uses foul language because of it, then it goes. That might be a good compromise. Your son might be willing to "do to get" for that. As far as the movies...I think you are fighting a losing battle because he is over the age limit and he can go on his own.
Hound dog
Nana's are Beautiful
Being a strict parent is ok. I'm a strict parent. Knowing when to be strict is the key with teens.
After the age of 13 I no longer restricted music or movies. Janet has a point. Most parent's think their kids music is the most awful crud they've ever heard. I like most of the music my kids like. N can go if for some of the darker stuff depending on her mood. Sometimes I'll hear it and it'll trigger conversation between us. We start by focusing on what she thinks the song is saying. Sometimes it can be really interesting to get her take on it.
I'd say you're doing pretty good if your son is pretty much just wanting to do the same stuff his friends are allowed to do. Teenhood is when are kids learn to spread their wings and discover themselves. It's really hard to do that with parent's breathing too closely down your neck. When my kids reached teenhood many of the house rules had to be adjusted to accomodate.
That's not to say my kids got to do whatever their friends did. Kids around here tend to run the town at all hours, parents think little of it since we're a small town. I had to always know where my kids were and to be able to call and they be there. They were never allowed to just run the town. easy child often went to parties at her friends and sleep over. I knew the parents would be home. Doesn't mean the kids still couldn't have managed to get into some trouble, but it limited their possibilities. I tried to come up with respectful and fundimental rules that both parent and child could live with. And there were reasonable consequences for when those rules were broken.
After the age of 13 I no longer restricted music or movies. Janet has a point. Most parent's think their kids music is the most awful crud they've ever heard. I like most of the music my kids like. N can go if for some of the darker stuff depending on her mood. Sometimes I'll hear it and it'll trigger conversation between us. We start by focusing on what she thinks the song is saying. Sometimes it can be really interesting to get her take on it.
I'd say you're doing pretty good if your son is pretty much just wanting to do the same stuff his friends are allowed to do. Teenhood is when are kids learn to spread their wings and discover themselves. It's really hard to do that with parent's breathing too closely down your neck. When my kids reached teenhood many of the house rules had to be adjusted to accomodate.
That's not to say my kids got to do whatever their friends did. Kids around here tend to run the town at all hours, parents think little of it since we're a small town. I had to always know where my kids were and to be able to call and they be there. They were never allowed to just run the town. easy child often went to parties at her friends and sleep over. I knew the parents would be home. Doesn't mean the kids still couldn't have managed to get into some trouble, but it limited their possibilities. I tried to come up with respectful and fundimental rules that both parent and child could live with. And there were reasonable consequences for when those rules were broken.
Arttillygirl
New Member
I believe you are right.
THanks
THanks
DDD
Well-Known Member
If his best friend is a nice kid who was a victim of abuse at the
age of ten, is your husband afraid he will tell your teen about it or
is he afraid that the boy is now a homosexual who will entice
your son?? I realize different religions see things in a variety
of ways but "spending the night" usually means that teenage boys
play video games, watch television, eat and drink and then drink
and eat most of the night.....and then.....they fall assleep on
sofas or the floor fully dressed.
In trying to protect your son I think you are making him feel
that he is different and isolated. Teens need friends. Some
friends are better than others and that is how they learn what
type of adult behavior they want to absorb. I have never ever
met a normal teen (if there is such a thing..lol) who wanted to
be and do exactly like their parents. Your teens have to learn
to trust their own instincts one step at a time. Parents fret
and pray and pace. That is normal.
It's a bit like potty training a bright two year old. You "know"
that the kid "knows" what to do and when to do it. They, in turn, "know" that if they don't do what you want them to do that
it causes stress and gives them power. It's human nature. DDD
PS: Billy Graham had a son who went way away from the family
faith and living style. It took him until he was around 25 or 30
to figure out his life. Now he heads the Billy Graham ministry,
if I remember correctly. I saw Billy on TV maybe ten years ago or so and he laughingly said that raising a rebellious teen was
the biggest challenge the Lord sent their way. You are not alone.
age of ten, is your husband afraid he will tell your teen about it or
is he afraid that the boy is now a homosexual who will entice
your son?? I realize different religions see things in a variety
of ways but "spending the night" usually means that teenage boys
play video games, watch television, eat and drink and then drink
and eat most of the night.....and then.....they fall assleep on
sofas or the floor fully dressed.
In trying to protect your son I think you are making him feel
that he is different and isolated. Teens need friends. Some
friends are better than others and that is how they learn what
type of adult behavior they want to absorb. I have never ever
met a normal teen (if there is such a thing..lol) who wanted to
be and do exactly like their parents. Your teens have to learn
to trust their own instincts one step at a time. Parents fret
and pray and pace. That is normal.
It's a bit like potty training a bright two year old. You "know"
that the kid "knows" what to do and when to do it. They, in turn, "know" that if they don't do what you want them to do that
it causes stress and gives them power. It's human nature. DDD
PS: Billy Graham had a son who went way away from the family
faith and living style. It took him until he was around 25 or 30
to figure out his life. Now he heads the Billy Graham ministry,
if I remember correctly. I saw Billy on TV maybe ten years ago or so and he laughingly said that raising a rebellious teen was
the biggest challenge the Lord sent their way. You are not alone.
neednewtechnique
New Member
My opinion may be slightly different than most of the previous responses for several different reasons. For starters, even though our difficult child is already 12, she is not my real "daughter" and I am only 23 years old, so there isn't much of a generation gap between me and most of your difficult child's. Also, I had a period of time in my life where I acted much like most of our difficult child's are acting now.
From my point, Eminem turned "big" when I was a teenager and I absolutely loved listening to his music. For starters, when I got into this kind of music, my parents made a deal with me. They agreed that I could choose my own music and movies, but that if it was something they did not agree with, it had to be played/viewed at a level that they could not hear it, and I was not allowed to play/view when I or they had company, and I was not to take it out of the house to someone else's.
Now, our therapist has suggested "whether most agree or not, I happen to very much agree" that the "angry" music may actually be HELPFUL to them when they are in one of their moods. I am not sure the reason for this, but they suggest that it may be helpful for them.
Also, what happened to everyone here who supports the the "explosive child" methods?? Is this really a basket A issue???
Don't get me wrong sweetie, I understand that your hands are pretty much tied when your husband is forbidding this, becuase as many others have said, you CERTAINLY don't want to cause any stress between the two of you over it, that would make things that much more unpleasant.
I think that the best thing to do would be to sit and talk to your husband first. If the two of you can reach a compromise, something that you can both agree on, that would be great. Ideally, you would be able to compromise on 2 or 3 different methods of handling the situation, and if that is possible, then you can bring in your difficult child and present the options to him and hopefully one of them will seem reasonable to him.
I would DEFINITELY NOT compromise whatsoever on the PORN issue, because that kind of an ADDICTION is unhealthy and brings on a whole set of problems in itself. I would also agree with a previous poster's suggestion that maybe the computer should be located in a family central area, and I would put on a "net nanny" or other program that will keep these types of sites from being viewed on the computer. MOST anti-virus programs now days have this capability. A GREAT one that we use is easy child-cillin. It is a "trend micro" program that protects your computer from viruses and spyware, and also has a pop-up blocker on it, and VERY SPECIFIC parental control options. This way, viewing this type of content online is simply not an option because the computer itself will not allow it. Then you don't have to worry about him sneaking around doing it (at least, not at home....)
Best of luck to you, I hope that you and your husband can reach a compromise on this sticky situation that your difficult child will be accepting of.
Hugs and I will keep you in my prayers.
From my point, Eminem turned "big" when I was a teenager and I absolutely loved listening to his music. For starters, when I got into this kind of music, my parents made a deal with me. They agreed that I could choose my own music and movies, but that if it was something they did not agree with, it had to be played/viewed at a level that they could not hear it, and I was not allowed to play/view when I or they had company, and I was not to take it out of the house to someone else's.
Now, our therapist has suggested "whether most agree or not, I happen to very much agree" that the "angry" music may actually be HELPFUL to them when they are in one of their moods. I am not sure the reason for this, but they suggest that it may be helpful for them.
Also, what happened to everyone here who supports the the "explosive child" methods?? Is this really a basket A issue???
Don't get me wrong sweetie, I understand that your hands are pretty much tied when your husband is forbidding this, becuase as many others have said, you CERTAINLY don't want to cause any stress between the two of you over it, that would make things that much more unpleasant.
I think that the best thing to do would be to sit and talk to your husband first. If the two of you can reach a compromise, something that you can both agree on, that would be great. Ideally, you would be able to compromise on 2 or 3 different methods of handling the situation, and if that is possible, then you can bring in your difficult child and present the options to him and hopefully one of them will seem reasonable to him.
I would DEFINITELY NOT compromise whatsoever on the PORN issue, because that kind of an ADDICTION is unhealthy and brings on a whole set of problems in itself. I would also agree with a previous poster's suggestion that maybe the computer should be located in a family central area, and I would put on a "net nanny" or other program that will keep these types of sites from being viewed on the computer. MOST anti-virus programs now days have this capability. A GREAT one that we use is easy child-cillin. It is a "trend micro" program that protects your computer from viruses and spyware, and also has a pop-up blocker on it, and VERY SPECIFIC parental control options. This way, viewing this type of content online is simply not an option because the computer itself will not allow it. Then you don't have to worry about him sneaking around doing it (at least, not at home....)
Best of luck to you, I hope that you and your husband can reach a compromise on this sticky situation that your difficult child will be accepting of.
Hugs and I will keep you in my prayers.
Arttillygirl
New Member
Well I must say this is the most help I have ever received in one place! Why pay a shrink!??!?
Last night, armed with wisdom from you all, we went to a party without my son.
The folk who had the party had a prodigal too. He left school at 17, became a janitor, stole stuff from a hospital, went to jail. They didn't bail him out.
My husband respects and likes them and they suggested, PG13-don't even try to forbid, Rap-don't allow objectionable in your home-(I understand the Eminem defense but how can we take him to church on Sunday and live lives of faith and then let him listen to lyrics like he writes. EX; (Telling his daughter that Mommys in the trunk with a knife in her neck- lets put her in the river and watch her float) I cant go that far. Do I think he'll commit murder, no but who needs that garbage in their heads?
He can choose other artists. That guy needs help, But again we can only control what he listens to here and they will need to be the clean versions.
Internet-already in central place with spyware. I have an apple so lots of the cool programs dont work but he knows I know everywhere he goes so even though it doesn't prevent him from going there, he knows there'll be consequences.
We discussed the boy and decided that my son has the training from us and will be making his own choices now and hurting him by forbidding him won't do anything but enrage him more, so we are going to let him spend the night.
They dont want to come over here but we might insist on that next time. Even so I dont' know what goes on under the covers after midnight with any of his sleepovers.
Not that I suspect anything, we have established how much he likes girls. But my brother is gay and I just wouldn't wish that life on anyone if it can be avoided. My brother himself would agree. (TerryJ2: the boy was molested at 10 by an older cousin. My brother was molested young too.)
But back to the subject. We are going to have him write a list of what he "needs and wants" this family to look like. And we will write what we desire. Maybe we can even sign it because I know when all this blows over husband will go back to his severe ways.
Thanks again to all and if anyone has any other ideas about this plan please share, we are going to try it today.
B
Last night, armed with wisdom from you all, we went to a party without my son.
The folk who had the party had a prodigal too. He left school at 17, became a janitor, stole stuff from a hospital, went to jail. They didn't bail him out.
My husband respects and likes them and they suggested, PG13-don't even try to forbid, Rap-don't allow objectionable in your home-(I understand the Eminem defense but how can we take him to church on Sunday and live lives of faith and then let him listen to lyrics like he writes. EX; (Telling his daughter that Mommys in the trunk with a knife in her neck- lets put her in the river and watch her float) I cant go that far. Do I think he'll commit murder, no but who needs that garbage in their heads?
He can choose other artists. That guy needs help, But again we can only control what he listens to here and they will need to be the clean versions.
Internet-already in central place with spyware. I have an apple so lots of the cool programs dont work but he knows I know everywhere he goes so even though it doesn't prevent him from going there, he knows there'll be consequences.
We discussed the boy and decided that my son has the training from us and will be making his own choices now and hurting him by forbidding him won't do anything but enrage him more, so we are going to let him spend the night.
They dont want to come over here but we might insist on that next time. Even so I dont' know what goes on under the covers after midnight with any of his sleepovers.
Not that I suspect anything, we have established how much he likes girls. But my brother is gay and I just wouldn't wish that life on anyone if it can be avoided. My brother himself would agree. (TerryJ2: the boy was molested at 10 by an older cousin. My brother was molested young too.)
But back to the subject. We are going to have him write a list of what he "needs and wants" this family to look like. And we will write what we desire. Maybe we can even sign it because I know when all this blows over husband will go back to his severe ways.
Thanks again to all and if anyone has any other ideas about this plan please share, we are going to try it today.
B
Arttillygirl
New Member
PS: I love the potty training story, my son was difficult there too< Haha
I realize we have been excellent parents up to the pre-teen years but need to evolve for the teens.
thanks again
I realize we have been excellent parents up to the pre-teen years but need to evolve for the teens.
thanks again
F
flutterbee
Guest
What does a child that was molested have anything at all to do with being gay? One doesn't equal the other.
I agree with the others. This is typical teen stuff and this kid is boxed in. He needs to breathe. He needs to make his own mistakes and have something to learn from. He's 15. It's a perfectly natural part of the growing up process for teenagers to start becoming more independent and have their own interests. If they didn't, they'd never leave home.
I agree with the others. This is typical teen stuff and this kid is boxed in. He needs to breathe. He needs to make his own mistakes and have something to learn from. He's 15. It's a perfectly natural part of the growing up process for teenagers to start becoming more independent and have their own interests. If they didn't, they'd never leave home.
DammitJanet
Well-Known Member
I think you are making a really good compromise.
PS. Getting molested doesnt make you gay. You are born that way.
PS. Getting molested doesnt make you gay. You are born that way.
DDD
Well-Known Member
Wow! I'm impressed. I feared that you and in particular your husband
were going to be so set in concrete that your son would logically
feel that he was completely under your thumb. Phew/Whew!! Way to go girl. I think you all have a chance!
Just remember as you pray each night that in addition praying that the Lord helps and guides your child, that you and your husband
have to ask for support in adapting to parenting these horrible
teen years!
If your friends are supporting you and acknowledging that they, too, had hard times. If you know Billy Grahams family couldn't
easily get through it. Then you know that you and your husband have
to do your best but accept that you can't control it all. DDD
were going to be so set in concrete that your son would logically
feel that he was completely under your thumb. Phew/Whew!! Way to go girl. I think you all have a chance!
Just remember as you pray each night that in addition praying that the Lord helps and guides your child, that you and your husband
have to ask for support in adapting to parenting these horrible
teen years!
If your friends are supporting you and acknowledging that they, too, had hard times. If you know Billy Grahams family couldn't
easily get through it. Then you know that you and your husband have
to do your best but accept that you can't control it all. DDD
Arttillygirl
New Member
Get this: my pastor said today Eminem has his finger on the pulse of the youth of this nation like no other. He said what you've all said-we can't protect him when he's out, we have to let him fail, if he's going to, while he's under our roof. We can tell him our feelings about these things but the bottom line is love. He strongly challenged my husband to find a way to connect with our son. He said everything is in the tone, when communicating. The relationship is so much more important than the rules. He said he needs to "court" him. I was so elated, I just hope he (we) can do it -we are at such opposite ends of the spectrum now. He said it's a risk to give him the freedom to make his own decisions in these areas but if we continue the way we are going, we are CERTAIN to fail. He said this is more about us than it is about him.
Yikes. I thought we were protecting him.
Our son spent the day with the boy and his family and came home kinda surley so he doesn't know we plan on compromises yet. I got a glimpse of his writings in his journal about Friday night (which I will never read! I've learned that lesson!) So I know he is still angry. I hope tomorrow is better.
God bless you all for your time and your wisdom!
Janet, I love your signature about your son: ADHD sucess story. I am going to just start chanting that now about my son and pray it comes to pass!
Yikes. I thought we were protecting him.
Our son spent the day with the boy and his family and came home kinda surley so he doesn't know we plan on compromises yet. I got a glimpse of his writings in his journal about Friday night (which I will never read! I've learned that lesson!) So I know he is still angry. I hope tomorrow is better.
God bless you all for your time and your wisdom!
Janet, I love your signature about your son: ADHD sucess story. I am going to just start chanting that now about my son and pray it comes to pass!
DDD
Well-Known Member
:bravo: I usually use the "quick reply" to save time but this
is an exception to the rule.
I am so impressed with you. I am impressed with your husband. Most
of all I am impressed by your minister. Reading your early posts
I was fearful that you belonged to a congregation that saw all
choices as black and white. Praise the Lord...you all have a
knowledgeable man of God telling you to step up to the plate,
accept what you have to accept and pray that your love and direction will help your son evolved into a wonderful man.
We used to have a Happy Dance (kinda of rock and roll style) that
I would insert when a wonderful event happened. Rats, I guess I
will have to use the ballerina. Way To Go! DDD :princess:
is an exception to the rule.
I am so impressed with you. I am impressed with your husband. Most
of all I am impressed by your minister. Reading your early posts
I was fearful that you belonged to a congregation that saw all
choices as black and white. Praise the Lord...you all have a
knowledgeable man of God telling you to step up to the plate,
accept what you have to accept and pray that your love and direction will help your son evolved into a wonderful man.
We used to have a Happy Dance (kinda of rock and roll style) that
I would insert when a wonderful event happened. Rats, I guess I
will have to use the ballerina. Way To Go! DDD :princess:
neednewtechnique
New Member
I agree with your pastor. You cannot protect your child from all of the evil in the world. I know I may have come across earlier like I was SUPPORTIVE of the Eminem thing, but that is not exactly the case. I was simply trying to share my experience with the artist a few years ago when I was a teen, and also to pass along the advice we were given by our difficult child's therapist when we addressed the issue.
As our children grow, we are teaching them and praying for them and believing that God will honor that by protecting and guiding them once the time comes for us to step back and let them make their own choices. At your son's age, sometimes the best thing you can do is "LET GO AND LET GOD". This is a phrase I heard a long time ago from a very dear friend and it really stuck with me. And I KNOW that God will not look down on you for trusting him to help guide your son in the right direction, and if anyone else does, then they truly need their own wakeup call. People in your church may not understand why you allow certain things to go on in your son's life that surely they think are inappropriate, but just politely remind them that you have spent his entire life giving him the tools he needs to succeed, but that your son is at a point in his life where he needs to be allowed to make his own choices so that he can truly feel God's conviction for himself. This in itself will be your son's greatest gift. It is easy to do something behind your parents back, and you don't get in trouble if they dont' find out, but it won't be long before God will convict him and he will feel sorry and start to make some positive changes for himself. Good parenting, medication, and good psychiatrists/therapists are all great tools, but nothing in this world can compare to the things that GOD can do for ALL of our children.
Something else to consider, if your son likes the "hard rap" STYLE of music, there are PLENTY of Christian bands now that play music with the same "sound" as bands such as Eminem and others, but with MUCH MORE POSITIVE lyrics. I am sure that your church's youth pastor could point you in the right direction, or if you need some other ideas, I could go take a look at my brother's CD collection and get some artists/titles for you. He has mountains of CD's that are just that style. That was the ONLY way he was able to kick his "bad music" interest, and it really worked for him to just go buy the bands that sound the same but have much better lyrics.
As our children grow, we are teaching them and praying for them and believing that God will honor that by protecting and guiding them once the time comes for us to step back and let them make their own choices. At your son's age, sometimes the best thing you can do is "LET GO AND LET GOD". This is a phrase I heard a long time ago from a very dear friend and it really stuck with me. And I KNOW that God will not look down on you for trusting him to help guide your son in the right direction, and if anyone else does, then they truly need their own wakeup call. People in your church may not understand why you allow certain things to go on in your son's life that surely they think are inappropriate, but just politely remind them that you have spent his entire life giving him the tools he needs to succeed, but that your son is at a point in his life where he needs to be allowed to make his own choices so that he can truly feel God's conviction for himself. This in itself will be your son's greatest gift. It is easy to do something behind your parents back, and you don't get in trouble if they dont' find out, but it won't be long before God will convict him and he will feel sorry and start to make some positive changes for himself. Good parenting, medication, and good psychiatrists/therapists are all great tools, but nothing in this world can compare to the things that GOD can do for ALL of our children.
Something else to consider, if your son likes the "hard rap" STYLE of music, there are PLENTY of Christian bands now that play music with the same "sound" as bands such as Eminem and others, but with MUCH MORE POSITIVE lyrics. I am sure that your church's youth pastor could point you in the right direction, or if you need some other ideas, I could go take a look at my brother's CD collection and get some artists/titles for you. He has mountains of CD's that are just that style. That was the ONLY way he was able to kick his "bad music" interest, and it really worked for him to just go buy the bands that sound the same but have much better lyrics.
Arttillygirl
New Member
I would love some suggestions. My guess is it won't be cool enough for him. He has Ambassador. But the Holy Spirit is capable of touching him through music so we'll try anything positive at this point.
If anyone is still following this post, I have one more hard question.
He did some vandalism a couple of months ago which started all this investigation of his music, journaling, etc. The boy with him (who no longer attends the school) smashed something in our school. I work there and the other boy's dad does too. The other boy's dad contacted the person in charge of the church's stuff but left my son's name out of it. (It's a parochial school) My son is going to pay for 1/3 of the damage out of his pocket from his job. It's about $300. The third boy's parents were not notified.
My question: should I go to my principal and tell him about my son's involvement? He might be suspended. I guess my feelings are he has been through enough but am I just not objective. He's paying for it, he didn't actually do it, he's seeing a counselor, and you all know the rest.
If anyone is still following this post, I have one more hard question.
He did some vandalism a couple of months ago which started all this investigation of his music, journaling, etc. The boy with him (who no longer attends the school) smashed something in our school. I work there and the other boy's dad does too. The other boy's dad contacted the person in charge of the church's stuff but left my son's name out of it. (It's a parochial school) My son is going to pay for 1/3 of the damage out of his pocket from his job. It's about $300. The third boy's parents were not notified.
My question: should I go to my principal and tell him about my son's involvement? He might be suspended. I guess my feelings are he has been through enough but am I just not objective. He's paying for it, he didn't actually do it, he's seeing a counselor, and you all know the rest.
DDD
Well-Known Member
I would not go to the Principal. You would be adding more pressure to the pressure cooker that is your son right now.
He is accepting responsibility by paying the money from his
earnings.
by the way, are you familiar with the Serenity Prayer?? It is hugely
helpful for many of us to repeat that each day silently for
personal guidance. DDD
PS: I also would not suggest alternative music to him. He needs
time to settle down without interference or influence.
He is accepting responsibility by paying the money from his
earnings.
by the way, are you familiar with the Serenity Prayer?? It is hugely
helpful for many of us to repeat that each day silently for
personal guidance. DDD
PS: I also would not suggest alternative music to him. He needs
time to settle down without interference or influence.
neednewtechnique
New Member
I agree with DDD, if you have handled the situation at home, by making him pay for part of the damage (which, by the way, I think is a GREAT way to handle such a situation) then I see no need to further involve the school. I don't care much for the third child not getting in trouble though, but that part isn't really within your control.
Kudos to you, I think you are doing the right thing. I will keep you and your family in my prayers!
Kudos to you, I think you are doing the right thing. I will keep you and your family in my prayers!
Marguerite
Active Member
I have actually downloaded an Eminem song lyrics ("Toy Soldiers") to use as a teaching tool with my writing classes. A lot of his more recent stuff is really highly moral, much more than you would think. Yes, it uses bad language but it is targeting an audience for whom those words no longer hold shock value. "Toy Soldiers" is basically saying that this kind of music goes too far when people get killed. Revenge is wrong.
That said, I make a point of listening to the music my kids like and looking up the lyrics online before I get upset. When I found out difficult child 1 was into "Rammstein", which was a band whose music was linked with the Columbine killers, I was nervous. Then I looked up the lyrics and listened to the music. I then followed through and sat down with my kids (easy child 2/difficult child 2 was into it by then) and explained the words to them (most of it is in German, and involves some clever bilingual puns, it's not all about hate and death as it seems).
If I don't like them listening to it I tell them and explain why. When they want to play it in the car and I am driving, I'll only let them if I feel I can put up with it. I find one track is my limit. Sometimes less. But by listening to it with them, it takes away their secretiveness. It also opens up opportunities to talk about all sorts of things, including any negativity expressed in the lyrics, or any depression they're trying to fight.
We have an Aussie hard rock band from years ago, "Midnight Oil", their music was heavily environmental. Their lead singer Peter Garrett is now in Federal politics. My redneck nephew was a big fan of "Oils" and I congratulated him on his environmental conscience. His reply was to look at me in astonishment. "Is that what the words are about? I never listen to the words, just the music." So much for the youth of today getting caught up in deep lyrics, I remember thinking. Often they're only listening to it because everyone else is, and it shows they're cool.
Boys will be boys when it comes to wanting to do what they want to do. Once they reach a certain age all you can do is hope you have instilled enough right thinking in the short time you've been able to have influence. Once that point is reached, where peer influences become more important than parental ones, you can no longer try to assert your own tastes and opinions. They are determined to express their own. Sometimes their determination to express individuality goes to extremes, just to prove a point. They dig out the worst, most depraved and disgusting stuff just to see what all the fuss has been about. Generally it doesn't last. But the more fuss you make about it, the more you try to stop them, the more curious they get about it.
If you demystify it instead, you take out 90% of the attraction. difficult child 1's musical tastes have shifted a lot lately - he still listens to his grunge metal stuff, but he now listens more to Japanese anime, which is light, almost techno, very rhythmic and almost bubblegum music. He seems to be going back to what he really prefers, the attraction of the 'dark matter' is now wearing thin.
Porn - another matter. respect for women comes under that heading, which connects to respect for others in general. Porn is something TTs will get into. And they begin to get fascinated with it when their peers do. It varies, but from what I've seen it often begins at about 13. Which means he's probably been looking at porn for several years, maybe with mates as a starting point.
"Girls Gone Wild" is much tamer than it could have been. But you can use this as an education. Do some digging on how they made "Girls Gone Wild". I looked up Wikipedia - basically, this is quite serious exploitation. They drive around with cameras, frequenting places where girls are on spring break, for example, or partying. They target girls who can be tempted to do something outrageous, often egged on by party atmosphere, maybe fueled by drugs or alcohol, but certainly not capable of making a rational, informed decision. Often they're not even legally old enough to be filmed without parental consent. These girls are persuaded to do something, flash something or whatever in exchange for maybe a t-shirt or a free drink. It's extreme exploitation because if it was a porn film they'd be getting paid, there would be legal contracts and it would be done far more legally (ironic). These girls are manipulated and have it committed to film permanently, for a moment of stupidity. Someone is making a lot of money out of this and it's not the girls on film.
I would ask him how we would feel if he was watching one of those videos one day and saw his sister on it. Or a girl he really liked, who he wanted to ask out. His girlfriend or fiancee. Or his mother (maybe years younger, when she was fresh out of school). This sort of stuff is going to be around forever. It's likely that a lot of the girls on this film don't realise how their image has been used. They are often under age and therefore could not legally give consent. The bloke who makes these films has already faced a number of charges on this.
One thing kids his age hate, it's anything that's unfair. Well, the way the girls in this film have been treated, THAT is unfair. In a few years' time his sister is going to be ripe for this sort of exploitation. How would he feel if he saw another bloke watching his sister being filmed (often by another female) taking her top off for a fleeting second? He KNOWS the sort of comments his male friends would be making because he says the same things himself when he watches porn with the blokes.
True porn - although there are contracts involved and they do get paid, this is still another form of exploitation. If you have to try to live on minimum wage, if you desperately need extra money to pay the bills, and you can look good enough, some people are tempted into this industry. For females especially, it is a horrendous experience. They have a very limited shelf-life and have to do as many films as they can in the short time they are considered attractive enough. It's a ghastly lifestyle which generally does not lead to anything more (such as the mythical Hollywood contract). A good object lesson is to Google "dead porn stars" and sit there with him, reading the results. When you look at how many have died and what of, it screams of an unhealthy, self-destructive lifestyle which is NOT to be desired. These people burn out fast and end up on the trash heap. It's tragic and a waste of human resources. To watch the stuff created by exploiting these poor people should
anyone's conscience. It's like encouraging people in Third World countries to sell off body parts for a pittance, then watching them die early due to poor surgical hygiene.
And all of it is fed by people who buy it. The people who make money from it are the ones who are doing the most harm. They are not nice people, and buying this stuff is putting more money in their pockets.
One day he may want to marry. He will probably want to share his life with someone special. How can he consider doing this until he has learnt to respect other people (including himself)? How can he even respect himself, if he watches this stuff after he has learnt how much making it damages others and fattens the bad guys?
I know I'm not telling you anything you don't already know. The thing is, can you communicate this to him? If you can bring yourself to sit down with him and look at this stuff, as well as sit with him to look at information on it, you will do more to turn him off it than any ban could do. Having your mother view porn with you, dispassionately criticising it as you go, it maybe the biggest turn-off of all. And if you've done a bit of discreet homework first and acquainted yourself with the flimsy plots so you can sound like you have already watched these, it should totally turn him off it.
What is desirable about this stuff is that it is selling a concept and a world that is the opposite of what he has been brought up to see as right. It is different, it is superficially attractive and it is simply not real. Helping him see below the pretty surface to the mire beneath - he will never be able to fool himself again.
Bans don't work. Ultimatums don't work. Never try to threaten a punishment that you can't enforce. Education and information can be a better way to prevent. And if all else fails - it won't last too long, he's going through a typical teen phase.
If he is also suffering from depression or other issues, they need to be dealt with. Often we try to escape from reality when reality is too hard to deal with. The porn could be a partial symptom of a desire to escape. THAT needs to be addressed. But the porn and the music is generally not a cause, it's a side issue, a small symptom at most of a pre-existing underlying problem.
He's trying to assert independence and show he's an adult capable of making mature decisions. yeah, right. WE know he's not going to have a mature adult brain until he's 25 - he won't accept that. You need to let him have some rope, so he can make some mistakes of his own. All you can do is try to prevent those mistakes being terminal. You may need to let go on some stuff so he doesn't try worse things.
You've got an uphill battle right now and I think you all need to sit down with the professionals and work out where to go from here. This is too big for you to try to sort out on your own.
Marg
That said, I make a point of listening to the music my kids like and looking up the lyrics online before I get upset. When I found out difficult child 1 was into "Rammstein", which was a band whose music was linked with the Columbine killers, I was nervous. Then I looked up the lyrics and listened to the music. I then followed through and sat down with my kids (easy child 2/difficult child 2 was into it by then) and explained the words to them (most of it is in German, and involves some clever bilingual puns, it's not all about hate and death as it seems).
If I don't like them listening to it I tell them and explain why. When they want to play it in the car and I am driving, I'll only let them if I feel I can put up with it. I find one track is my limit. Sometimes less. But by listening to it with them, it takes away their secretiveness. It also opens up opportunities to talk about all sorts of things, including any negativity expressed in the lyrics, or any depression they're trying to fight.
We have an Aussie hard rock band from years ago, "Midnight Oil", their music was heavily environmental. Their lead singer Peter Garrett is now in Federal politics. My redneck nephew was a big fan of "Oils" and I congratulated him on his environmental conscience. His reply was to look at me in astonishment. "Is that what the words are about? I never listen to the words, just the music." So much for the youth of today getting caught up in deep lyrics, I remember thinking. Often they're only listening to it because everyone else is, and it shows they're cool.
Boys will be boys when it comes to wanting to do what they want to do. Once they reach a certain age all you can do is hope you have instilled enough right thinking in the short time you've been able to have influence. Once that point is reached, where peer influences become more important than parental ones, you can no longer try to assert your own tastes and opinions. They are determined to express their own. Sometimes their determination to express individuality goes to extremes, just to prove a point. They dig out the worst, most depraved and disgusting stuff just to see what all the fuss has been about. Generally it doesn't last. But the more fuss you make about it, the more you try to stop them, the more curious they get about it.
If you demystify it instead, you take out 90% of the attraction. difficult child 1's musical tastes have shifted a lot lately - he still listens to his grunge metal stuff, but he now listens more to Japanese anime, which is light, almost techno, very rhythmic and almost bubblegum music. He seems to be going back to what he really prefers, the attraction of the 'dark matter' is now wearing thin.
Porn - another matter. respect for women comes under that heading, which connects to respect for others in general. Porn is something TTs will get into. And they begin to get fascinated with it when their peers do. It varies, but from what I've seen it often begins at about 13. Which means he's probably been looking at porn for several years, maybe with mates as a starting point.
"Girls Gone Wild" is much tamer than it could have been. But you can use this as an education. Do some digging on how they made "Girls Gone Wild". I looked up Wikipedia - basically, this is quite serious exploitation. They drive around with cameras, frequenting places where girls are on spring break, for example, or partying. They target girls who can be tempted to do something outrageous, often egged on by party atmosphere, maybe fueled by drugs or alcohol, but certainly not capable of making a rational, informed decision. Often they're not even legally old enough to be filmed without parental consent. These girls are persuaded to do something, flash something or whatever in exchange for maybe a t-shirt or a free drink. It's extreme exploitation because if it was a porn film they'd be getting paid, there would be legal contracts and it would be done far more legally (ironic). These girls are manipulated and have it committed to film permanently, for a moment of stupidity. Someone is making a lot of money out of this and it's not the girls on film.
I would ask him how we would feel if he was watching one of those videos one day and saw his sister on it. Or a girl he really liked, who he wanted to ask out. His girlfriend or fiancee. Or his mother (maybe years younger, when she was fresh out of school). This sort of stuff is going to be around forever. It's likely that a lot of the girls on this film don't realise how their image has been used. They are often under age and therefore could not legally give consent. The bloke who makes these films has already faced a number of charges on this.
One thing kids his age hate, it's anything that's unfair. Well, the way the girls in this film have been treated, THAT is unfair. In a few years' time his sister is going to be ripe for this sort of exploitation. How would he feel if he saw another bloke watching his sister being filmed (often by another female) taking her top off for a fleeting second? He KNOWS the sort of comments his male friends would be making because he says the same things himself when he watches porn with the blokes.
True porn - although there are contracts involved and they do get paid, this is still another form of exploitation. If you have to try to live on minimum wage, if you desperately need extra money to pay the bills, and you can look good enough, some people are tempted into this industry. For females especially, it is a horrendous experience. They have a very limited shelf-life and have to do as many films as they can in the short time they are considered attractive enough. It's a ghastly lifestyle which generally does not lead to anything more (such as the mythical Hollywood contract). A good object lesson is to Google "dead porn stars" and sit there with him, reading the results. When you look at how many have died and what of, it screams of an unhealthy, self-destructive lifestyle which is NOT to be desired. These people burn out fast and end up on the trash heap. It's tragic and a waste of human resources. To watch the stuff created by exploiting these poor people should
anyone's conscience. It's like encouraging people in Third World countries to sell off body parts for a pittance, then watching them die early due to poor surgical hygiene. And all of it is fed by people who buy it. The people who make money from it are the ones who are doing the most harm. They are not nice people, and buying this stuff is putting more money in their pockets.
One day he may want to marry. He will probably want to share his life with someone special. How can he consider doing this until he has learnt to respect other people (including himself)? How can he even respect himself, if he watches this stuff after he has learnt how much making it damages others and fattens the bad guys?
I know I'm not telling you anything you don't already know. The thing is, can you communicate this to him? If you can bring yourself to sit down with him and look at this stuff, as well as sit with him to look at information on it, you will do more to turn him off it than any ban could do. Having your mother view porn with you, dispassionately criticising it as you go, it maybe the biggest turn-off of all. And if you've done a bit of discreet homework first and acquainted yourself with the flimsy plots so you can sound like you have already watched these, it should totally turn him off it.
What is desirable about this stuff is that it is selling a concept and a world that is the opposite of what he has been brought up to see as right. It is different, it is superficially attractive and it is simply not real. Helping him see below the pretty surface to the mire beneath - he will never be able to fool himself again.
Bans don't work. Ultimatums don't work. Never try to threaten a punishment that you can't enforce. Education and information can be a better way to prevent. And if all else fails - it won't last too long, he's going through a typical teen phase.
If he is also suffering from depression or other issues, they need to be dealt with. Often we try to escape from reality when reality is too hard to deal with. The porn could be a partial symptom of a desire to escape. THAT needs to be addressed. But the porn and the music is generally not a cause, it's a side issue, a small symptom at most of a pre-existing underlying problem.
He's trying to assert independence and show he's an adult capable of making mature decisions. yeah, right. WE know he's not going to have a mature adult brain until he's 25 - he won't accept that. You need to let him have some rope, so he can make some mistakes of his own. All you can do is try to prevent those mistakes being terminal. You may need to let go on some stuff so he doesn't try worse things.
You've got an uphill battle right now and I think you all need to sit down with the professionals and work out where to go from here. This is too big for you to try to sort out on your own.
Marg
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