Spanking issues

[AK0603]

Hi everyone, I met the ex to pick up the kids today. And I did talk to him for a minute, he almost didn't allow him to come visit because he got into trouble again for lying. But he allowed him, when the boys went to the bathroom with the step mom I talked to him alone. I told him i didn't like the spanking, expecially with- a belt issue. And he told me that he believes that it is helping him with behavior issues.

Well we get back tonight to my sisters and we go into her hot tub, I saw him change clothes and he has a bruise on his leg, where the belt wrapped around his thigh. He saw me look at it, and said that is from my spanking with the belt. And then he got angry and said "isn't that child abuse mom, he should be in jail"

I didn't know what to say, I really said nothing but just a hug and some fresh clothes. My parents were here and when he went upstairs I told them I was upset and bothered to which they tell me, it's the only way to deal with a boy. He is out of control and he'll be in jail if something doesn't happen.

As far as his wife, they have an OK relationship, she has no children of her own. Only been in the picture for 3 years. My ex and I talked when we remarried that no one would spank/touch our kids...and my husband does not. Well my son told me tonight the she does spank him with her hand.

He is in bed tonight, but I will call him tomorrow and tell him I see the bruise and that he hit him WAY too hard, and I didn't like it at all.

They are in Indiana and he keeps telling me he's talked to the school counseler, the psychiatrist, and the therapist he see's and none of them see an issue with- spanking with a belt. I know in NY my son lied to school and said I had spanked him with-a stick and CPS came out, they looked at him and saw nothing, found it unfounded. But they told me that if there was marks then we would be in trouble. But NY may be different.

I just feel so badly, I'm just sick. My ex did tell me that they are getting ready to start him on some new mood disorder medications, so I'm hoping that will help.

 

[jamrobmic]

They are in Indiana and he keeps telling me he's talked to the school counseler, the psychiatrist, and the therapist he see's and none of them see an issue with- spanking with a belt. I know in NY my son lied to school and said I had spanked him with-a stick and CPS came out, they looked at him and saw nothing, found it unfounded. But they told me that if there was marks then we would be in trouble. But NY may be different.

I don't believe it's any different in Indiana. From what I've been told, per CPS in this state, you can use an open hand on a clothed bottom if you're going to spank. I'm pretty sure using a belt and leaving a bruise crosses a line, and I find it hard to believe any professional advocates this. Is it possible your ex didn't exactly give them the whole story?

Your signature says your son has been diagnosis BiPolar (BP). My son (who was a huge handful from the age of nine on) has also been diagnosis BiPolar (BP). I can tell you that our experience was that nothing worked (including jail-we went so far as to have him locked up) until he was on a mood stabilizer. Your ex might think spanking is controlling your son's behavior, but it sounds like it's making him extremely angry, and I wouldn't be surprised if his behavior starts getting even worse. I hope you can convince your ex to handle things another way.

 

[smallworld]

Amy, I'm so sorry for your pain and for the way your son is being treated by his father. I hope you can straighten things out with ex. If not, you will be faced with some very difficult decisions. Just want you to know that we're here for you. Sending many supportive hugs your way.

 

[BusynMember]

Is your ex honest with you? There is NO WAY the school, in any state, would be allright with a bruise from a beating, and if there's a bruise it's a beating. What if your son gets sick, has to go to a doctor and the doctor sees it? You think the doctor won't report it? You think a therapist won't turn you both in if your son says he was hit and bruised? And you could both be in trouble, and perhaps both lose custody of the kid. Your ex flat out lied to you. Tell him YOU are going to talk to the school about the belt. Bet he begs you not to. If your son tells a teacher he was hit with a belt or he if a gym teacher or somebody who sees him in shorts sees that, expect to get involved with the Child Protective System and ex could and probably will face charges. Child Protective Services tends not to be so nice when they see evidence of a parent harming a child. I would take that child out of his home yesterday. THAT IS ABUSE. If you don't, mark my words, not only will he be damaged by that, medications or no medications, but you could all end up in court. Your ex obviously lost control and beat him. That is NOT a spanking, no matter what he calls it. in my opinion he's better off in an Residential Treatment Center (RTC) than with your ex. I hate to sound harsh, but your boy is being abused and ex is snowing you that it's just discipline. WHy is he even with this man? I feel sorry for your boy. Has the nurse seen the bruise? I doubt either. He has crossed a line and I'd never allow that for my kid, even one who is difficult. Hugs and hope you do the right thing. And my very strong opinion is that you take him home and find services elsewhere. Some parents are toxic and ex doesn't sounds dangerous.

 

[AK0603]

Thank you again for the replies of support. My main issues is it's not just ex, it's my family too. I find it all so weird. I don't know if I should call the psychiatrist myself and ask to speak to them, they do the counseling together (him and his dad) maybe he could speak to him?

I will get my point across to him for sure, not appropiate, and i do think it crossed a line!

 

[oceans]

I'll bet he did not tell anyone that he was so angry that he left a mark on his body, and it is not in a place where anyone would see it unless your son showed it to them. I think you are going to need to be on your son's side regarding this one... in spite of your family. I hope you can make things right for him.

 

[jbrain]

I think your son needs to know you will protect him. I am having trouble understanding why you are not incensed with ex-husband and making a firm stand. I am ready to go to Indiana right now and take your son I am so angry! I think your anger could be a catalyst but I am seeing a passivity there. Maybe I am wrong, it is easy to misunderstand when we can't talk verbally.

Sorry to sound harsh, just very concerned for your son and would like to see some fire in your eyes!

Thinking of you,
Jane

 

[guest3]

as someone who will admitt being human and losing it and smacking my difficult child's once or twice, it DOES NOT HELP, it only makes things worse, and it does teach them violence, when they already have those tendancies.

 

[AK0603]

I have decided to call his school's counseler Monday AM and talk to her, tell her that I am trying to be discrete but that my son has a bruise from a belt and I think she would call him into her office and talk to him, I'm hoping that the school will call CPS or at least keep an eye on this since I can not be there and do not live in the same state.

I will let you know what happens.

 

[BusynMember]

I don't get it either. Why don't you take him home? Who cares about the adults in your family? This man is not going to help your son and he could harm him. If you're afraid of ex, why send your son to him? I don't get it. I thought it was just to see if it worked out. You must know your ex is not a good parent. You don't have to live in Indiana to turn him in to CPS. I don't get why you're reluctant to do it. I feel like your boy is all alone. Wish I could help him.

 

[oceans]

I know that you were having a difficult time, and that you did not feel like you could help him. That is why you sent him to his dad...so he could get more attention and he could try to help him.

The problem is that he is thinking that your son has normal "boy" problems and he can't handle his issues in a calm and controlled way. He is hurting him and he is allowing his new wife to hit him as well, although he promised that this would not happen.

You are moving to Indiana in June so you can be near him and around family who could give you support. The problem is that the family is not being supportive right now. They know what is happening, and it is alright with them that it is going on.

Perhaps he can move back with you, and in June you can all move there together. Maybe you could tell the psychiatrist that the next step was to try mood stabilizers and could he please follow through with that, or find a different one that will.

I know that it is really hard. It is really hard for many people on here as well. Sometimes we all need a break...we all want to try something different that might help. The key is to know when something turns out to be more detrimental than what we were led to believe, and to change directions fast for the well being of your/our child.

 

[AK0603]

I don't get it either. Why don't you take him home? Who cares about the adults in your family? This man is not going to help your son and he could harm him. If you're afraid of ex, why send your son to him? I don't get it. I thought it was just to see if it worked out. You must know your ex is not a good parent. You don't have to live in Indiana to turn him in to CPS. I don't get why you're reluctant to do it. I feel like your boy is all alone. Wish I could help him.

If I move him again then I think that it will be much much worse. I understand what you are saying and my son is in NO way alone, and I do not feel he thinks that either.

My difficulty with the situation is that I am not a spanker, however, I was spanked and do not neccisarly feel spanking is something that never ever works...but this was too far.

I am not "scared" of my ex, but what I do not want to happen is for him to start keeping me "out of the loop/ with these things. Right now he tells me these things if he knew I called CPS on him, he would not and the social worker I spoke to earlier in Indiana does not feel anything will really happen over this except some interviewing and possibly some counseling or parenting classes.

I tried each and everything that ever psychiatrist, reg.doctor, therapists suggested, hours and hours of therapy, inpatient, outpatient, medications, family groups, school help. Just everything, when I grounded him he kicked me I was slapped I was hurt by him physically, he ran away from home and school.

I do think he is doing better at his father's house, he is behaving much better, his grades have improved alot too. So I do see improvement. If I saw no improvement he would come home with me even if this had not happened.

 

[AK0603]

I want to add that the most recent diagnosis is BiPolar (BP), but I have been told different diagnosis's by every single doctor we have seen. So I don't know what is or isn't at this point. And then I have been told he has none of these disorders and it is a "lazy" issue...it's hard because as a parent you have to trust the docs and teachers.

 

[jamrobmic]

I want to add that the most recent diagnosis is BiPolar (BP), but I have been told different diagnosis's by every single doctor we have seen. So I don't know what is or isn't at this point. And then I have been told he has none of these disorders and it is a "lazy" issue...it's hard because as a parent you have to trust the docs and teachers.

I think most of us have been through the confusing maze of different professionals giving different diagnosis, and then of course, you have family and friends giving their "informed" opinions. I finally decided to give my son the benefit of the doubt and proceed as if there were something wrong besides his just being a bad kid (this was before we had a diagnosis, and we also had our share of people telling us we just needed to be tougher with our son). Even though we did finally get a diagnosis, and our son improved immensely with treatment, there are still those who don't believe he has any kind of disorder. It's hard, but I just have to let them think what they want. I quit trying to convince them.

I hope you don't feel attacked, and I didn't mean to imply that your ex is a bad parent. It sounds like he's a reasonable guy who loves his son and is probably just as frustrated as you by his/your son's behavior (as any of us would be). I know my husband and I were both driven to the edges of our sanity (maybe beyond, lol) by our son. Dealing with a difficult child takes you places as a parent you never thought you'd go. My husband did use a belt on our son once. He didn't do it again because he was afraid he might do what your ex did-leave a mark. It's easy to lose your temper when your child constantly pushes you to the edge. I haven't hit my son with a belt, but I've said some pretty awful things to him. I'm sure there are people who think I'm the world's worst mother, but I truly love my son. I hated what he was for the longest time, and I was very angry with him. We all got through it, as awful as we were to each other at times. I don't think anyone was permanently damaged.

The only point I was trying to make was that in our case, no amount of force or authority (of any kind) worked. We had to get at the cause (our son's illness) and treat that before things improved. You have to decide what will or won't work for your family. I think each of us does what we think is best for our kids, and I know the same is true of you and your ex (and your current husband).

 

[sameold sameold]

Hi
I normally stay out of these issues because they already get alot of responses, but this is very frustrating and I have to agree with Midwest Mom, why aren't you taking your son home with you?? I would never ever let someone lay a hand on either one of my sons.
It really breaks my heart that your son asked you if this was child abuse and you neglected to answer him and protect him.

 

[AK0603]

My son didn't just ask if it was child abuse, what he was doing was in a way "showing it off" like look at what he did, he should be in jail right and then I can just go home.

He was 100% trying to manipulate the situation at that point. In talking with him later, one on one, he told me it didn't hurt and the spanking are "funny"

 

[BusynMember]

Well, this is my last thoughts on this. There is spanking and there is beating. This is a beating and if CPS steps in and ex has to go to parenting classes, good. Someone is watching him. in my opinion he could get worse for the bruising. I agree that ex thinks he's just being a normal boy and a good beating on the will help him shape up. I think in the end you'll both regret it. If he is asking you if this is child abuse (and I'd say most people would say it is), he's going to tell somebody else. And somebody is going to turn his father in, and maybe you too. If a kid came to my house and said his father hit him with a belt and caused a bruise, I'd call the cops to see the bruise. I know I'm not the only one who would do the same, so your boy is either going to have to be told to be quiet about it or this could easily turn very ugly for all of you.
Or maybe he'll start hitting your ex back when he's a teen (I knew of a situation where the boy got larger than his dad and beat him up--the cops were at the house all the time with one or the other being arrested, and this kid never got the belt--just a spanking). It's your decision. If it were my kid, I'd disregard what mom, dad, sister, etc. said. I wouldn't even ask. If I couldn't manage the child, I'd find another place for him because you don't know how he really feels. Obviously he is thinking, on some level, "This is abuse," and he's getting to the age where he's going to use that knowledge. Obviously, your boy has a psychiatric or neurological condition and hitting him won't change that. As for the school, maybe it's the honeymoon and maybe the school is easier--who knows? It won't matter how he does in school if he doesn't get treated for his disorder because it will interfere in his adult life. I'm going to bow out of this thread because it's so disturbing to me, and I hope you search your heart and get assertive for the boy's sake. I would not get this upset over a regular spanking. There is a fine line between a spanking and a beating. This was a beating. If ex's wife is laid a hand on my son, I'd call the cops. She isn't even his parent, but I hope it all works out. Take care.

 

[timer lady]

Amy,

This must be so unsettling - all the horror stories & such being shared. I remember your struggle to send difficult child to live with his dad because of the fear & chaos in your own home.

As you can tell, there are some very strong opinions on this topic. I make no judgments as I'm not in the midst of this; I'm not privy to what is going on in dad's home with difficult child or how difficult child may or may not be perceiving/manipulating this situation. Only you know.

You will have to go with your gut on this issue.

I'll be keeping you & your difficult child in my thoughts.

 

[AK0603]

thank you Linda, I have thought over and over, and I have talked to my difficult child last night, and I am going to call his school and talk to the school counseler to see what they feel, I think that once they talk to difficult child they will call CPS legally they have to if he tells them this.

I think for the situation it will be the best for everyone. I can not just grab him and take him on a plane back to NY...I had no where to send him, no school, no other family he could stay with and he was out of control, he was hurting the other children...it was so scary.

I am going to call his school in the AM tomorrow and something will be done. I also am going to be having a face to face talk with ex today and his wife, and I will say the belt is gone, period.

 

[jbrain]

Hi Amy,
sounds like you have a good plan. I am sorry if so many of us have sounded harsh--you have held up well under our strong opinions and feelings!

I think I understand a little better now--when you described how your son was asking if it was child abuse in that show-offy way. I do think your husband is in a power struggle with your son and I think most of us have found that we as parents can never win those! He (your husband) probably could benefit from parenting classes--his mentality about this isn't going to help anyone.

Hope you have a better day,
Hugs,
Jane