Too much weirdness

[katya02]

I'm sick at heart. I don't know if difficult child is using, or if he's delusional, or what's up. He got angry today because I removed three cans of chew from his bedroom (one of my recent rules: no chew in the bedroom, because he repeatedly used it there after being told not to). He accused me of sneaking and skulking around and being dishonest in not telling him at the time. At the time, he was outside working with husband for an hour or so. I wasn't about to run outside with it and have a confrontation, just figured I'd bring it up when it was convenient to me. difficult child showed that he can control his temper if he wants ... kept his voice down and looked angry but controlled himself. He kept telling me I NEED to tell him if I want to take something of his out of his room, whereas I told him that if something is there that I've expressly forbidden, regardless of whether he bought it himself, I will remove it, period.

He got to the point of telling husband and I that he's just waiting to get enough $$ saved to move out into an apartment (hooray!). Shook husband up. difficult child went downstairs to his (basement) bedroom very angry, slamming the door etc.

Then husband found a dry erase/corkboard message board in the garage that had been stabbed multiple times with a blade and ripped to pieces. We checked among the Pony Club supplies in the storage room and sure enough, it was the board daughter uses at Pony Club rallies to post schedules. There were knife marks (12) in the wall as well, and he'd stabbed into a cardboard box holding one of her riding helmets and ripped the velvet on the helmet. husband confronted him and asked him when HE was planning to tell us about this, given his anger that I hadn't told him what I'd done. difficult child said he'd done it Friday night after husband and daughter and I went to Pittsburgh for a 25th anniversary celebration (we left daughter with one of her other brothers overnight, it wasn't a matter of leaving difficult child out of a family thing). He told us we drive him crazy, that we're pushing him over the edge, and that we obviously want him to leave home and be homeless (I know, non sequitur but that's how our conversations go). He said we'd said something - but wouldn't or couldn't say what - on Friday that 'made' him slash the board and wall. The violence with which the board was stabbed up and torn apart was scary.

I also found a can of compressed air on his desk today (he never cleans his keyboard) and wondered again, as I did after finding an empty Pledge can in his garbage, if he's huffing. I haven't found evidence of drugs since he came home in May but have wondered at times if he's getting stuff - he was doing so much all semester that I find it hard to believe he simply stopped completely cold turkey. He did keep sneaking alcohol but I finally, last week, persuaded husband that we must get rid of everything after another 9 beers were sniffed out and disappeared, and so everything is now gone.

difficult child has had one rage this summer that was scary and I told him if he makes motions as though he's going to hit me, I'll call the police and he'll be gone. In that scenario he'd be in jail, as he's out on bond right now for pot possession and paraphernalia. The frustrating and worrying thing is that difficult child's perception of reality is frequently really ... off. He twists things, tells us we've said things that we absolutely have not, and generally seems to be deluded about himself and what he's doing. For example, he tells us repeatedly, constantly, what a hard worker he is and how he does 'everything' around the house, how he's the 'go to' guy because his brothers will never help with anything and if they do, they mess it up, etc. The reality: he sleeps in daily, has to be told to shower and put on fresh clothes, his bedroom is covered in heaps of clothes and junk, his bed is torn apart with sheets on the floor, his bathroom smells of urine and frequently has no toilet tissue (eewww), and as for getting him to do things - it takes a morning of pushing and prodding to get him outside to give an hour's assistance to husband, who will put in six to eight hours of outside work himself; difficult child will occasionally 'clean the kitchen', meaning he puts his plate in the dishwasher and leaves his pans for someone else to wash; he will always say, 'I'll take care of it' and only do so when forced to, and then in anger. Yet he insists that he does 'everything' and will get into a screaming fight over it! He just seems ... deluded. He looks scruffy and unkempt, constantly complains of severe fatigue or nonspecific 'illness', and spends hours each day playing video games and watching TV. In spite of going to outpatient rehab each week (2 groups and 1 private session) and seemingly being clean and sober, he doesn't look right.

His psychiatrist doesn't see him very often and seems taken in by difficult child's view of things - such as that husband is evil incarnate and the cause of all bad things, etc. When I'm not sitting in, I'm sure it's me who's the devil incarnate. Anyway, the psychiatrist is not helpful with the borderline acting out (cutting etc.) that difficult child has done this summer and doesn't seem very clued in. husband is completely depressed, anticipating that difficult child will leave home shortly and be dead on the street within a week. I'm so tired of the weirdness (difficult child has stabbed inanimate things for years) but also freaked out by the latest destruction. I'm starting to feel unsure about our general safety. Yet the next morning, difficult child is typically matter-of-fact, as if nothing's happened ... until it happens again or he blows up again.

Thoughts? I'm chasing mine in circles.

 

[Andy]

I am scared just reading this little bit. His anger Friday night was taken out on his sister over something you or husband said? Has she ever expressed concerns of safety with her brother in the house? Sometimes kids can pick up on things that other kids are trying to keep from adults. How does she feel about her brother?

Sounds like you need a new psychiatrist - one that will listen to your input - one that is open to treating delusions.

I don't remember what your signature said - is your difficult child currently on medications? Is he cooperative in taking them?

I would type up each concern including the examples and ask for a visit with psychiatrist to review. If psychiatrist reads a long list of issues, maybe he will have his eyes opened and start treatment. Include how difficult child sees things and how he blames everyone else for any problems he has.

Maybe discussing concerns with the outpatient rehab will give you more options?

 

[witzend]

Your son is violent, more violent than many of the rest of us are used to. That he can control himself in public or in front of husband or both is to me an indication that he's holding up his violence for a time when he can get away with it. It also sounds as though he is huffing. To think that he is going to save up enough money to get his own place is absurd.

My thought is that he needs to be out of the house. I also think if he is worried about your searching his room, I'd be going through it with a fine toothed comb. I'd call the police when he's violent. It's your house and he is 20 years old. Unless you usually live like thugs at your house, he doesn't belong there. It won't kill him to find a place to crash. It may kill him to not have to do anything other than sleep and huff mom's pledge.

 

[katya02]

I don't know that his destruction of the message board was aimed specifically at his sister - my impression was that he used the knife on things he probably thought were expendable. For example, there was an expensive saddle sitting right in the same area and he didn't touch that. He could have gone up to his sister's room and damaged things there if he was aiming the violence at her, but he didn't. To me it seemed more like a spur of the moment choice of something to destroy. He has poked holes/stabbed things since he was about seven years old. I used to find Kleenex boxes all poked to pieces, as well as other types of boxes; also fruits and vegetables. He'd hide the stuff he'd poked holes in under bathroom sinks or in clothes cupboards - I was always finding weird stuff. It used to make me despair, the constant weirdness. His docs, and he had many, never got a handle on these behaviors.

My daughter doesn't fear difficult child, but I never leave her alone with him. I can see difficult child being angry that we took her to Pittsburgh; after his last rage he spent several days assuring me that it had only been because he had missed his medications for a couple of days, and we could feel comfortable leaving her at home, in fact he would feel bad if we didn't think we could do that. This is another example of his weird thinking: after a rage in which he screamed in my face and threatened to punch me, he tells me we'll be making him feel bad if we take daughter with us! A total disconnect from reality.

I'd like a new psychiatrist but we live in a small town with exactly one psychiatrist. I could take difficult child to the nearest city but psychiatrists are in short supply there and waits are six months or longer. I think I will call Tuesday and give them a list of concerns, however - probably drop off a written list. difficult child is on medications this summer for the first time since he was 14. He's on Paxil and Luvox at max doses, and amitriptyline 25 mg for sleep. The antidepressants haven't tipped him into a manic episode (he was diagnosed early onset bipolar at one point, but it doesn't really fit). The Paxil has worked great for his panic attacks which were bad when he first came home and had no access to drugs. Whether the Luvox helps is debatable, but he has been more even-keeled on it than in the past few years. I keep his medications locked up at the psychiatrist's request and give him a weekly dosette. He still does weird things with the dosette though.

I think discussing things with the rehab people might be even more helpful than contacting the psychiatrist. They are very good, very realistic, and they can also contact the psychiatrist with concerns. He might listen to them more than to me.

I agree that difficult child needs to live somewhere else. We don't live like thugs (I hope that was hyperbole, witz) and I've warned both him and husband, who is still struggling with thinking that difficult child is going to kill himself, that I will have difficult child arrested the next time he acts in a threatening manner. I don't mean to make husband sound totally out to lunch; he was horrified by what we found today, including the 12 holes in the wall, and is processing the fact that difficult child is on his way out. I know that huffing could kill difficult child. I don't want to find him dead.

difficult child had a job at a farm market for a month this summer. They let him go two weeks ago, saying they didn't have enough hours for him. But he told me about some things he said and did there, such as crushing an apple in his hand, and an onion on another occasion, while saying something along the lines of 'I crush your head, ha ha ha!', that makes me sure they fired him due to his weird and scary behaviors. He told me he did this, thinking it was a joke! Sometimes he seems perfectly friendly, intelligent, and in control of what he does, and other times he seems either clueless or delusional.

Now difficult child has an interview this coming week for a good job, one that would use his education i.e. reading blueprints etc., and would pay about $20/hour, enough to actually get that apartment and also pay us back what he owes us (he has to reimburse us for his legal defence plus other fines etc from the past year). He has to get back to his college town at some point for a court date. He has to get to rehab. Our little town has no taxi service and no bus that comes near our place. I'm always stuck helping him out with things like transport, yet if I don't do it his life will fall apart very quickly - no rehab, no job possibilities. The court date I'm about ready to let go, and let them arrest him for not showing (it's 3 1/2 hours drive to his college town where the charges were filed).

This is too long ... I still find my thoughts ramble in circles. Sorry.

 

[susiestar]

I am so sorry you have to live with this. The level of violence is just so high. It is over the top of what many of us have experienced. Your son is very dangerous - NO ONE should be home alone with him. Please make sure all bedroom doors have GOOD locks - each person should lock their door at night every night. You really don't know when he is going to lose it and hurt someone badly. The stabbing of things goes way way way beyong "wierdness".

You may not be able to see the severity of it because you have lived with it for a long time.

He is an ADULT. I really thing there is more illegal stuff in his room. It needs to be searched with a fine tooth comb when he is out of the house.

You say his life will fall apart if you don't do things for him.

He will NEVER get his act together unless you let him hit his personal bottom. It won't be what YOU think bottom it - it must be HIS bottom. At that point he will accept help and the tools to recover.

Until he hits his bottom ANY and ALL help - including rides, shelter, food, etc... - are enabling. He is clearly huffing - you can be quite sure he is NOT waxing his furniture. By giving him a place to live and rides to court, etc... you are enabling him. He can get a ride to court - they will come get him if he doesn't show.

I hope you and husband can be on the same page and let him go live like this away from the family. It is dangerous to have him near the family - regardless of his diagnosis.

 

[CrazyinVA]

I agree that he needs to be out. I'm really afraid that he's going to blow at some point, it sounds like he's just barely holding it beneath the surface. The fact he was upset at what you found is at least a sign he knows his actions are scary... but that doesn't make him any less dangerous if he can't control it.

I also have to say that given the empty cans, there really isn't much doubt he's huffing. VERY scary stuff. I would at least tell the rehab people of your concerns. Remember that if he is self-medcating with any other substance, his medications are pretty useless.

 

[Hound dog]

I also think it's time for difficult child to leave. That degree of violence makes me nervous, and I'm glad that so far he's managed to restrain it to inanimate objects. What you've found in his room strongly suggests huffing. And it sounds as if he has some major paranoia going on.

The mixture of paranoia and violence worries me whether he's using or huffing or whatever or not. Take it from someone who knows first hand, this is not a good combination. Add in that his concept of reality is pretty darn warped.....again Red Flags. I could be dead wrong, but based on experience with my Mom (minus the drug use) this can easily slip into a volitile situation. It all but screams "danger to others" and most likely self too at me. Sorry. Just how I'm seeing it.

I'm so sorry you're having to deal with this situation. Scarey, and I'm sure the tension is sky high. I'd contact psychiatrist and the outpatient rehab and give them both the info. Hopefully rehab will back you up and also contact psychiatrist and that will give him inclination to move on this.

(((hugs)))

 

[Suz]

I'm wondering about easy child 1 and his dxes and if anyone has considered that difficult child might have similar things going on himself? What medications/treatment helped easy child 1 stabilize? Has this been considered for difficult child?

Regardless, these are scary times and like the others said, violence can't be tolerated. I'm so sorry.

Suz

 

[susiestar]

Be sure you can install new locks on the house or have them installed the day you move him out. It will be very very important for the safety of the rest of the family. Be sure all windows are locked also. If you have a garage door with an automatic opener you will probably need to NOT leave the openers in the cars for safety.

I just thought of this.

Also, Suz's questions about easy child 1's medications is a good one. HAve these medications been considered for difficult child? IS there a chance he has schizo - whatever disorder? has it been consideredby the docs?

I am so sorry youhave to handle this. What does your husband want to do about it? Are you talking? (sometimes it is easy to slip into not talking - especially if you don't agree. Tensions are already so very high, and no one wants any more tension.)

 

[katya02]

Thank you all for your thoughts and advice. I think susiestar is right - I've lived with this so long that while it feels uncomfortable, it doesn't strike me with the same degree of severity as it does objective observers. Add to that the fact that I've brought it up with docs for years and gotten nowhere, and every time I've insisted that there was a big problem, difficult child settled down and was peaceful and contrite and I was held to be an overreactor and person of questionable judgement, and ... I find I trust my judgement less than I used to.

It's also difficult when difficult child knows precisely where the line is. If he swings at me but doesn't connect, and no-one else was in the room, how do the police know what to do when I call them? It's he said/she said with no physical evidence of battery. Similarly, if we find something like the message board all pierced and destroyed, it happened two days prior; there's no violence going on currently; no role for police. We have to say, on finding something like that, 'You must leave the house; go now.' That's the point that husband hasn't quite reached, and difficult child exploits it by crying hysterically and accusing husband of wanting to kick him out, wanting him on the street and to never contact us again, of wanting him to die. So far husband is vulnerable to it.

I agree about changing the locks etc., and again, husband hasn't gotten on the same page yet. Yesterday he said he wants difficult child to move out and go to another state, and doesn't want to hear from him for a year and only then if things are positive; but so far it doesn't last. He wavers and changes his mind.

I've wondered for years if there's more psychotic stuff going on with difficult child than appears on the surface. Mostly it seems that he puts on whatever act is necessary to win his point; but at the same time he gets so upset with tears and sobbing etc., that it makes me wonder about whether delusions are part of it. If he were simply antisocial I would expect more anger or detachment. Rather than crying and sliding us sideways looks to see the effect, difficult child gets hysterically emotional and seems to regress at these times. It's sad, seeing a 20 year old man sobbing over his perception that his sibs are mean to him, or some other age-inappropriate issue.

easy child 1 is currently just on an antidepressant; it helps his concentration mostly. He isn't currently bothered by a lot of 'positive' symptoms, i.e. auditory hallucinations, prominent delusions, etc., so isn't on an antipsychotic at the moment. Antipsychotics don't help the 'negative' symptoms of schizophrenia and that's what easy child 1 copes with mostly. Both easy child 1 and difficult child have been on antipsychotics in the past. I'll bring up the issue with the psychiatrist tomorrow.

 

[BusynMember]

Hi. As one who has bipolar myself, I still would have thought it was smart for my parents to have made me leave home if I did not try to help myself, was violent, and used drugs, which make any mental illness worse (can cause violence even without mental illness). From my own daughter's addiction and recovery, and her words of wisdom from the side of an ex-addict, whatever you know he is doing, he is 90% probably doing much more--maybe even cocaine or amphetamines (ADHD drugs crushed and snorted with coke is popular). Psychedelics are back in style..joy, joy...and anyone with mental illness who messes with THEM may never recover, but you can't stop him...no matter how much or little he is doing, he is dangerous and he isn't complying with his treatment plan and he sure as hell knows how to cry at the right time to get his father's sympathy. Have you joined any groups, such as Nar-Anon? Parents of Mentally Ill Adults? I strongly suggest Nar-Anon as I have a feeling at least half of his trouble is due to drug use, and maybe he used from early on. My daughter started at twelve and by thirteen it was way more than pot (and I didn't even know...how dumb am I???). She told me the whole nine yards only after she quit, and it was appalling. I thought she had bipolar, and she may, but she certainly is not violent or delusional or crazy now that she has quit using. Hmmmmmm....
I would give a day to leave, change the locks, get a restraining order. If he quits using drugs (ALL of them) and is in treatment and stable on medication then maybe you can try again at home. But you deserve to be safe. He is not a little boy anymore and it is his choice to get help and improve. I had to do it. But I never abused drugs either. Still, it was hard work. If my parents had made it easy for me, I may not have tried to get well. As it was, I had to leave at eighteen and I decided I hated being sick and I REALLY tried hard.
I'd go to Nar-Anon tonight. (((Big hugs)))

 

[witzend]

I agree that difficult child needs to live somewhere else. We don't live like thugs (I hope that was hyperbole, witz) and I've warned both him and husband, who is still struggling with thinking that difficult child is going to kill himself, that I will have difficult child arrested the next time he acts in a threatening manner.

I'm playing devil's advocate here. It was only hyperbole in the sense that I feel that you do not live like thugs, but your son does, in your home, and it won't be long before your house is where the lady with the thug adult son lives, and then it becomes where the thugs hang out.

These were the types of things that when M did when he was in the 8 - 12 year old range we tried to figure out why and how to fix it. Twenty is a little old for that, don't you think? What were you doing when you were 20?

I get it that you didn't have the issues that he has when you were 8 or 12 or 20. But haven't you been giving him every opportunity and tool available for him to correct or at least tone down those behaviors? Stabbing up your mom's stuff and intimidating her and threatening her with violence is something that you live with and work to correct when they're 12 because you have no choice. Stabbing up your mom's stuff and threatening her or her young daughter is something you shouldn't live with, because you have a choice.

Again, playing devil's advocate, how realistic is it that your son who sleeps all day and is huffing, who can't hold a job for a month at a fruit stand is going to pay you back court fines and attorney's fees at a regular day job and save enough money to get his own apartment before he gets fired for saying something threatening or scary to someone.

I totally get it that paying you back would be the right thing to do, but honestly, has your son given you any indication that he wants to do the right thing? It feels like you are setting him and yourself up for failure. Sometimes it's best just to cut your losses and let them figure it out for themselves.

So, where do you draw the line? Is the behavior acceptable so long as he is repaying his debts and saving for his apartment, or is it just not acceptable. You don't have to call the police when he takes a swing at your face in private and misses. You just have to kick him out and change the locks. And your husband should back you up in that. My husband would be out looking for an apartment too, if he let that go on in our house.

I know that deep down you know what I have said is true. You were the one who said:

"We can't make choices for our addicted kids; only they can. We can't control them. We can't try to mold them or our families to meet our expectations. They are individuals who are going to live their lives. We are also individuals who need to live our own lives."

"If he lives at your house, accepting shelter, food, and other things, he needs to respect your rules."

You are an individual, too. And you have the right to live in your own home without fear. Just because your daughter says she's not afraid, that may only meant that she has conditioned herself to the fear. If she's not afraid, that's not good.

 

[Big Bad Kitty]

Sigh. Hugs for your hurting mommy heart.

And yeah, I think he needs to be out. He's a little too comfortable taking things out on the family when things are not exactly as he likes.

 

[katya02]

Sigh ... had a long talk with husband. He listened but was too upset to commit to a final decision tonight. I think he sees the writing on the wall but needs a little time to process things. He can't get past the idea that difficult child has no way to support himself if we make him leave now. Also he comes from an ethnic background that pretty much infantilizes adult kids, keeps them home until they marry, and generally puts up with absolutely anything in the name of family. It's very hard for him to do something that goes against everything he internalized while growing up. I know that doesn't mean he shouldn't do it, but it's really a struggle.

Witz, your point is well taken - difficult child didn't hold onto a job at a fruit stand and he isn't preparing for his interview this week for a much more responsible, demanding job. To think that he's going to pay us back and save for an apartment with his current behavior is a pipe dream. I don't even know that he'll follow through and go to the interview.

I do draw the line at difficult child's current behaviors; they are not acceptable regardless of whether he's working or saving or whatever. He needs to see some real-life, adult consequences to his adult actions. I believe he needs to leave; it's husband who needs to see it.

I'm going to contact the psychiatrist tomorrow and fill him in, and I hope he evaluates difficult child for both drug use and psychotic thinking. I'm going to keep reality-checking husband. I wish there were a Nar-Anon group in this little town. There's only one Al-Anon meeting per week and husband is working that evening this week. I'm going to go, though.

Maybe husband is waiting for me to make it easier for him by forcing the issue and demanding that difficult child leave. That way the upset, and all ensuing consequences and catastrophes, can be all my fault. I'm just so sick of being the scapegoat that I want husband to step up and stand with me on this.

 

[katya02]

PS - thanks for all the hugs, guys. I appreciate it.

 

[flutterbee]

Delusions really aren't part of Borderline Personality, but they could be a part of drug abuse as I'm sure you're well aware.

I may be way off base, but when I was reading about his inflated sense of self - how he 'does everything' and is 'the go-to guy' - that sounded like narcissism to me. It could be some deluded thinking that an AP might help, but my first thought was narcissism. Especially with how he controls himself with going right to the line, but not crossing over. If he was truly psychotic, I don't think he would have that much control. And of course, narcissists don't need any help because there is nothing wrong with them.

Just my thoughts.

(((hugs)))) to you in this very tough situation. I will be keeping you and your family in my thoughts.

 

[witzend]

I do draw the line at difficult child's current behaviors; they are not acceptable regardless of whether he's working or saving or whatever. He needs to see some real-life, adult consequences to his adult actions. I believe he needs to leave; it's husband who needs to see it.

Maybe husband is waiting for me to make it easier for him by forcing the issue and demanding that difficult child leave. That way the upset, and all ensuing consequences and catastrophes, can be all my fault. I'm just so sick of being the scapegoat that I want husband to step up and stand with me on this.

I think you probably are very close to the truth there. My husband let me make all the "bad guy" decisions about M his entire life. When I finally made him leave, after he sucker punched husband when husband finally stood up to him in one of M's rages, we agreed that husband would deal with all issues from then on out. It took me several months to stop sticking my nose into M's business. husband and I went into our own therapy. I finally gave in and stopped trying to control anything. husband didn't change much. He made a grand start of things that lasted about a week or two. But it didn't change anything for M, and I wasn't going to go back to trying to fix it. M didn't have a job or a penny. Somehow he got by. He always had a computer and a playstation for some reason. Those were his biggest addictions, although there was the usual pot smoking and drinking you get with slackers.

Fast forward 5 years since we've had any control whatsoever, and M has a decent job, has a room in a rental house with some other kids that he pays for, but hopes to get a new place when he gets a couple of paychecks under his belt, and he seems happy - er. For M.

In the long run, I don't think anyone faults me for being the one to draw the line. We all knew it needed to be done and no one else was going to do it. I don't fault husband for not stepping up. M was just four months past his 16th birthday, so decisions had to be made for a while. But eventually we let the world take care of poor, abused, neglected M. They all figured it out too.

If this is something your husband can't do, I think you need to tell him that you can. I suspect that you are talking about his background as being Asian or Persian, but if you are not I know both of those backgrounds very well and they do keep their young people home until marriage. I suspect your husband knows the right thing to do, he just hasn't seen it up close in practice before. There's no lesson like a hands on lesson. Time for everyone to give up that old way of life. They do still run families that way in Korea and Japan and Egypt, but not with a kid who is acting like yours. They kick them out just the same way we do here.

 

[gottaloveem]

I also found a can of compressed air on his desk today (he never cleans his keyboard) and wondered again, as I did after finding an empty Pledge can in his garbage, if he's huffing. I haven't found evidence of drugs since he In spite of going to outpatient rehab each week (2 groups and 1 private session) and seemingly being clean and sober, he doesn't look right.

In regards to the huffing question, if you found an empty Pledge can in his garbage can, I would say most definitely he is huffing. You probably know that deep down though.

I would trust your mommy heart, if you think he is doing drugs, he most likely is. Are they drug testing him at his outpatient group? Maybe he is sticking to huffing so it won't show up on drug tests. Huffing is very dangerous, but as a family doctor, I'm sure you know that.

I'm sorry things are bad. Sending many hugs.

(((((HUGS)))))

Love,
Lia

 

[katya02]

I haven't posted for a bit with things being up and down and other family stuff going on. But after the last weird thing with the stabbed message board and wall, husband ruminated and agonized and finally went to confront difficult child at 1:30 am when he (husband) couldn't sleep. He laced into difficult child in a way he's never ever done before. I went down to hear what was going on so I would know what was truth and what was fiction when I heard about it from difficult child the next day.

husband spent about an hour telling difficult child he couldn't understand why difficult child was throwing his life down the crapper; how he was going to have to tell difficult child to leave and that would be total disaster for him; he outlined everything he foresaw happening in graphic terms. difficult child sat still and listened. He didn't offer any arguments.

After this, difficult child looked at husband and apologized. He said he had underestimated 'how severe things were'. He said husband was absolutely right in everything he'd said, everything about difficult child's laziness and lack of initiative, his lack of respect for his family, his living situation, everything. He said he would go if we wanted him to.

husband told him he could have one more chance on several conditions: that he schedule and regiment himself in terms of getting up, cleaning his room and bathroom, and making a list of things to do around the house and property and then tell us, not have us tell him, what he would do each day. That he close the deal on the job he's applied for, and if not, get out pounding the pavement until he's got one, preferably two, jobs that are less desirable. That he understand that we are not going to tiptoe around him and his moods; that if we criticize him he is to take it as something he needs to correct in himself; and that if he decides to argue with us, or punch his walls, or do anything weird or violent again, he has just decided to pack and leave. 'Just tell yourself, I have just decided to leave, if you do any of these things' were husband's words.

So difficult child called repeatedly about the job he'd submitted an app for, got an interview, went and talked to four co-owners of a company for 45 minutes, and got the job. He spent the next three days (until today) chopping firewood for the winter, cleaning out the hot tub, scouring his room, and cleaning the kitchen. He starts the new job at 6 am Monday.

The counselor at his outpatient rehab said we are too soft. I have hesitated to post here because we will be seen as being too soft. But difficult child is doing everything we said, so far.

I don't trust my judgement anymore. I still have never managed to get to an Al-Anon meeting (there was one tonight but I was loading our horse onto a trailer to send him south to sell). I did find out there are daily - DAILY - NarAnon meetings in town. They seem to be the best-kept secret around here. They aren't publicized on the web, in the local paper, or anywhere else. I found exactly one brochure in the waiting area of the outpatient rehab office. If difficult child hadn't been there for counseling I'd never have found it. Anyway, I will get to one this coming week come hell or high water. I suppose husband and I are enablers but I don't know how to kick difficult child out when he's complying 100% with our rules and requirements now.

 

[trinityroyal]

Katya, it's really hard.

You get to the point where you're ready to toss your difficult child out on his ear, but you also desperately want to help, desperately want to hope that this one time they will hear you, they will get it, and they will clean up their act.

It's possible that difficult child will have gotten the message from your husband. Possibly not. However, husband made it very clear to difficult child where he stands. So...he's following all of your house rules and that's good. Hopefully it will bring a measure of peace into your home that you haven't had for a while.

But, what it does do is it makes very clear for your difficult child that it's UP TO HIM. It isn't that mom and dad kicked him out. If he breaks the rules again and has to leave, then those are the natural consequences of HIS behaviour. You've drawn your line. It's up to difficult child to walk it.

Now...if he does slip up, you and husband have to hold firm and make him go. If you don't, then he will continue to abuse your home and your family.

I know it's hard. Sending hugs and saying prayers for peace.

Trinity