Unreasonable?

[meowbunny]

Okay, ladies, how about each to their own corner. I think you're getting upset about wording. From what I've seen, you're both super, caring parents. I understand Kathy's feelings that some of the worry goes away when you can't see if they're home on time or not. You worry in general that they're okay, that they're not doing stupid things, that all is well in their world, but you don't worry about their curfews, drinking, etc. because you have no idea if they're doing that or not. So, can we please let the semantics go and go back to trying help CAMom?

I still stand by the unreasonableness is in allowing him to pretty much do what he wants. It is still illegal to drink at 18 in California, I believe. So, he's not working, not paying for anything (and I assume back to an allowance from you), not going to school, hanging out with his friends and having a beer or two or three when he feels like it, plus who knows what else he may be doing. I'm sorry, but I think you have a very entitled young man living with you and you're encouraging this behavior. It is time to sit him down and let him know that he either follows the few rules you have 100% or move out. You deserve at least that much.

 

[Sara PA]

Sara, you are truly unbelievable and I will leave it at that since I know that you will twist anything I say to your own skewed reality.

"Skewed reality"??? Because I'm not authoritarian I have a skewed reality? Ok. Whatever.

 

[Kathy813]

Yes, meowbunny, that is exactly what I meant.

~Kathy

 

[Sara PA]

It is time to sit him down and let him know that he either follows the few rules you have 100% or move out. You deserve at least that much.

Let's be honest here. The kid needs two operations, he doesn't have a job. There's no way the parents are going to make him move out. Where's he going to go? A homeless shelter? The street? Bouncing from one friend's couch to another's? If that's what happens, is CAmom going to worry more or less than she is now? And if he moves out, how will he get the operations? Who'll pay for them?

Is this a rule because CAmom worries or is it a rule because that's a rule that people think CAmom should have? Is it about worrying or is it about control? And if he doesn't follow it, then what? Is CAmom willing to put him out on the street? If she isn't, there really isn't any point in making the rule, is there?

These are really questions CAmom has to answer for herself and her husband.

 

[BusynMember]

Sara, perhaps you are a parent who still worries sick about your adult son. I have three kids gone and it's different for me when they are here and when they aren't. I don't feel it is good parenting to support a child who isn't working, isn't in school, and just got out of rehab but is staying out all night. I don't think it makes for a very highly motivated, successful adult. You are free to disagree, but kids with serious behavior problems grow into adults with serious behavior problems and in my opinion you can't treat them the same as you treat your kids who are more compliant. They don't respond to it. I know that if I'd kept my drug-abusing daughter at home, allowing her not to work or go to school, she would have gotten even deeper into drugs and maybe even died by now. I don't think you've ever dealt with substance abuse and the ugliness of it, the deceit, the lies, the fear of death of your own child. I have and see red flags all over the place here. Not calling home is just the tip of the iceberg. You need to draw a hard line with anyone who substance abuses or they will happily abuse on your dime--and that doesn't help them get clean. Yes, when I made my daughter leave, I cried for a month, but you know the results. She is clean and sober three years now and is the manager of two retail stores as well as going out with a young man who is actually responsible (and doesn't have a pierced face...lol). From what I understand, your son had anxiety issues, but not substance abuse. To me, these are two different issues.
Under no circumstances do I think that it's healthy for adult children to be allowed to make their own rules while living with Mom and Dad, especially if they are supporting them. It may be just my opinion, but I think grown kids need to respect their parents rules, even if they think they're silly, or find their own places to live, where they can pay the piper themselves and make their own rules.
I do find I don't worry half as much about my grown kids now that they're not under my roof. When they were here, every time they pouted I worried. I will never stop worrying about my daughter who abused substances, but we've maintained close contact and she knows I"m always here for her. I do worry about a relapse, but not as much as I would if she was here. So I'm going to agree to disagree with you

 

[BusynMember]

Sara, with drug abusers often it's better that the kids hit rock bottom rather than live a cushy life with Dad and Mom. That often turns their life around moreso than if Mom or Dad let them "play and be happy" and hand out money. Any N/A or A/A meeting would refute that.
I had surgery and I worked. Heck, I was back at work in two weeks. They won't fire him for missing a little work. He could do it. He doesn't want to and, from what I read, doesn't have to. It isn't exactly making him a responsible young man.
And CAMom is asking our opinion. Nobody is going to make her do anything. But if you ask for opinions, you get them.

 

[Sara PA]

MWM, do you not see the irony that you are advocating that this boy not be allowed to just hang, that he should be forced to get a job no matter what because of his drug abuse history yet your daughter, who got a job at 16, became a drug addict? Making a kid go to school or get a job doesn't provide immunity from drug and/or alcohol abuse. Sometimes it makes it more likely. Similarly, making someone come home by a certain hour doesn't prevent them from using drugs and/or alcohol. These things can be done at any time of day.

The reality of the situation is far more complex than the if-he-doesn't-listen-kick-him-out solution would imply.

 

[meowbunny]

I agree that kicking a child out is not always the answer, but CAMom's son has very few rules. He needs some real consequences, I'm not sure what they would be -- cutting off his allowance, grounding him, having him move out, just something real and concrete. I said have him move out if he won't follow a very simple rule because it inconveniences him to try to open CAMom's eyes. Asking if she's being unreasonable in asking to know if her son is safe speaks volumes. To me, this is a basic parental right.

My daughter knows that even at 20 I expect to know if she is going to be late. Not because she has a curfew -- she doesn't -- but because I'm entitled to sleep and not be up worrying. If she thinks my rules are unreasonable and she refuses to follow them, she is free to leave. If CAMom's son won't follow such a simple request, why should his parents support him in the style he is accustomed to?

 

[flutterbee]

No, it's not unreasonable. You have a right to the rules in your home. Period.

 

[witzend]

Well, apart from the bru-ha-ha, I think it comes down to respect. When someone is late I usually am a funeral planner. The later you are, the more detailed the funeral I have planned for you. Everyone knows this about me, and if someone tells me when they will be home, they call to let me know if they will be late.

CAmom, it's up to you what you will and won't provide for your child. My opinion on the subject is that you provide him with too much freedom and prevent him from providing for himself. But, that's what you want, so that's what you do.

If you're a worrier too, and it bothers you that he's not home on time and not calling you, why don't you call him? Hopefully his friends will razz him because his Mommy is worried about him, and he'll figure it out.

Out of curiosity, when you say that this is a rule, are there clear consequences for breaking this rule, and if so, are you prepared to carry out the consequences? Is there any plan beyond you are going to get him through his surgeries? It feels a lot like you all are delaying the inevitable. He has to get a job and move out one day. Or at least move out one day.

When L was 22ish and moved in with us, she would tell me where she was going, and I would also ask if she didn't. There was no hard and fast rule for when she had to come home, and yes I knew she was partying. I didn't like it, but it was my perogative to make that decision. She also called me if she was going to be later than she said she was going to be. But as she was generally going out to meet friends at a bar, I knew she'd be home later than I was going to be up, so I didn't ask. She usually came home, as I recall. She also knew that there was a certain date that she had to move out by, and we stuck by that.

 

[Hound dog]

Amen to the funeral planner. That is sooooo me. lol

As for the whole "out of sight, out of mind thing"...... Actually, I think it's more accurately put "if it's not in my face I don't have to deal with it".

If my adult child is living out on their own doing their own thing day and night, it's no skin off my nose because it doesn't involve me. I might not agree with the behavior, I might worry over the behavior, but not at the same level as I wouldn't be dealing with it in my own home.

But if an adult is living under my roof for free room and board, and let's be honest, even paying rent, It's MY rules. I don't give a hoot if that adult is my child, my sibling, my best friend, my auntie, or God himself. It's not a control issue. I own the house. Therefore I am responsible for all that goes on inside it.

CAMom, you and husband need to sit down, talk, and decide how you want things to go. What is tolerable, and what is not tolerable. And how you want to handle it. You're living the situation, so all we can do at best is tell you how we do it, or how we might do it if in the same situation.

 

[BusynMember]

Sara, to me an eighteen year old is no longer a "kid." They certainly don't think they are and demand freedom. Well, in my opinion, then they have to act like an adult if they are living at home. Call me silly, but I don't think an eighteen year old is a child anymore who can just play Nintendo all day and party, drink and make us worry all night. Not happening here, at least. As for my daughter, she was a drug addict before she got a job. I think her job helped give her the strong work ethic that s he now posses and the self-esteem to quit using drugs which, by the way, is NOT an easy task. At any rate, she DID stop using drugs after she left the house. She was making no progress at home. In fact, it got old to have the police at our door and drug parties in our house if we took the younger kids away on vacation for even a night. And, no, she wouldn't come with us, short of dragging her by the feet. In the end, it's what you want for your kids and what you can tolerate. I feel the job forced my daughter responsibility (she will agree, by the way) and, when she still had a license, car insurance, etc. It set her apart from her useless, lazy drug addict cohorts as most of them didn't work and were living off the dime of sometimes a not-so-rich, struggling single mom. We did pay for her cosmetology schooling. She was off drugs at that point and got "A's." Her reasons for using drugs have nothing to do with getting a job. If you ask her, she will tell you (as we talked about it over and over):
1/ She was raped at a friend's house at age eight and that affected her life forever. Yes, she had extensive counseling.
2/ We moved when she was twelve and nobody would pay attention to my shy daughter EXCEPT for the "bad" kids and she wanted to be popular.
3/ Both over and over again
She thought working was a good thing--to this day she is very responsible about her job, her bills, etc. What does it teach a child to pay their bills and give them support when they are destroying themselves. I can only speak for myself. I couldn't help her destroy herself. She feels that the best thing we did was make her leave. She calls it a wake up call and that's when she straightened out. You don't know our situation, but what we did worked. Drug addicts are way different than young adults who just have anxiety disorders (I was one of those). Their life is in danger. Tough Love is what works best. Coddling doesn't. Addicts need to hit rock bottom in order to be willing to deal with the entirely new lifestyle it takes to go clean--that includes all new friends. At any rate, we have three adults supporting themselves and not coming to us for money. They are very self-sufficient. in my opinion they wouldn't be that way if we had given them an easy life as young adults. There are in my opinion too many adult kids who never learn to live without their parents. And we can't live forever. JMO

 

[Suz]

Okay, everyone....it's a new day. There's been enough discord. Let's direct our attention at CAmom's question and not at each other. Enough.

Suz

 

[BusynMember]

THANK YOU, Suz!!!!
The personal attacks were getting old.

 

[Coookie]

My Goodness...

This is how we are handling it at the Coookie house since difficult child has come back. We are a family, he is part of that family and as part of this family we all let each other know when we are going to be late or whatever. difficult child is 19, has been on his own (back and forth) and I still think that husband and I have a right to know if he will be gone all night or not. Just common courtesy in my view. When he does let me know if he will be gone all night, or he is not sure, I do not react negatively. I tell him to be careful and sometimes I worry silently, or not.

I don't approach it so much as a rule of the house but as just something that a family does. I do know that in the past my reaction has had a lot to do with his compliance. I have found myself at times worrying about what he might be doing... might is the operative word here... useless worry to me. If, and when, he does get back into alcohol/drugs then husband and I will deal with that as we can but so far he has not.

No answers for you... sorry... just what is working for us right now... and we all know how quickly those things can change.

Just my '02.

Hugs

Wanted to add that difficult child is currently, possibly, going to be working full time which differs from your situation but when we live together in this house, we are family, no matter what the age and with families there has to be common consideration.

 

[skeeter]

Ok - I'm confused.

He's not working. He's not going to school.
He's able to go out (is he driving? Who owns the car and who pays insurance?)
Where is his money coming from for entertainment?
He has a cell phone, you already stated you are paying for that.
Oh- and he's having some medical procedures done - who's paying for that?

Yet he's also an adult and wants to be treated like an adult.

An adult pays their way in life. An adult may not have to answer to "mom", but an adult also doesn't have "mom" paying for things.

An adult also has rules and regulations to live by (such as not drinking if one is below the age to do so).

If calling is important, than you should inforce that. If it's not, then you must let it go.

But I don't see an 18 year old adult anywhere in this picture.

 

[donna723]

I completely agree with Coookie! It's not even so much rules for a "child" living in your home - it's a matter of simple common courtesy and consideration among ALL family members living in the same house, no matter what their age! I always called it my "off in a ditch syndrome" - if someone isn't home when they said they would be, I assume that something bad has happened to them, at the very least they're "off in a ditch" somewhere - and a few times my son really WAS! And, like Suz, my fatalistic reaction comes from the day my parents didn't come home when I was a kid - the wreck they had made my mother an invalid for the rest of her life. Fifty years later, I still cringe when the phone rings. So I can't help thinking the worst, and my kids knew that! I didn't sleep until they were safely at home. They ALWAYS called me if they were going to be late. The one time when my daughter was a teenager and tried to stay out all night, I had the police out looking for her!

My daughter still lived at home when she graduated from nursing school at age 20, and got her first nursing job working 3-11 PM at a hospital 60 miles away. I never could sleep until I heard her coming in, no matter how exhausted I was. When she took another job out of state and moved 600 miles away, I still loved her just as much, still worried about her, but I wasn't listening for her car to pull in to the driveway every night - there's a HUGE difference.

I, too, would question allowing a son that age to just "hang around". He seems to be back right where he started, almost unlimited freedom and spending money, with no responsibilities, nothing being asked of him in return, and he's still defiant and ungrateful, not even common courtesy. He's still running the show. How soon will he be having these surgeries? On our insurance, the kids would be dropped from the policy at age 19 unless they were a full time student. Is there not some kind of job he could find, even volunteer work, to keep him occupied and "off the streets" until he has the surgeries? What are his plans for after the surgeries?

CAmom, it looks like you are afraid to lay down the law and set consequences because if he defied the rules, then you would have to enforce those consequences - and he knows that. He's counting on that! It's always worked for him before and it's working for him now!

 

[DammitJanet]

I have 3 grown kids, 2 living at home and one who comes to visit. None of them...even Cory...stays out past "reasonable" without letting us know he is going to without discussing it first. Its just being respectful because they know I have that "off in a ditch someplace" syndrome.

I dont put a true curfew on my boys at home but they know Dad goes to sleep early and they know I cant sleep until they are in the house or I know they wont be coming home. This is never a problem with Billy but Cory has been known to want to stay out later so he will tell us he is going to be coming home late a few times. I am still aware of when he comes in because I dont sleep well that night but at least he lets us know.

There is something to the fact that when kids move out of the home you dont have their day to day lives right in front of you anymore. I had to learn to separate worrying about my son's health and safety every moment of every day the minute he entered boot camp or I would go crazy. It was out of my hands. I had to learn to trust that he would be fine and make the right decisions. If something went wrong I would hear about it soon enough. That is the truth for all of us with grown kids. We love them, we raise them, and we send them out into the world to carry on. We always will worry but its a different type than a constant one like when they live in home.

 

[SunnyFlorida]

Well......
Haven't been around for a while but boy...what a time to jump back in . Don't know wher those little smiley's went so...made my own.

CAMom, sorry hon, sounds like you're trying not to make waves and keep peace in your family by using some sort of win:win situation. Sorry....not buying it.

With me....it's a "seeing thing".

If one is at college (doin' what their supposed to be doin') then where and when they go is their business.

If one is "sharing expenses" at my house and is on equal footing ie pays his share of utilities, own medical own auto insurance, is working/going to school...you get the idea...then I'd say they can come and go as they please.

But...if you are paying for his upkeep and will be claiming him on your income tax forms then he is to abide by your rules which say call or text by 11:30 if you are not coming home. As a penalty, why don't you just take away the car or the $$$...pretty simple to me. Start removing things from his room again. Make it uncomfortable for him to live there.

If he needs surgery and you're planning on allowing him your home to recover and then the plan is school or work....I can see where it would be reasonable for him to continue staying there.

Another solution is get him an apartment for xx number of months and minimal living expenses. He'll either make or break it.

I'm thinking he's bamboozling you all again and in our greatest desire for peace and family...another one of these decisions has to come up.

 

[CAmom]

Wow, didn't realize I was starting such a controversial topic! Thank you all for your opinions and advice.

A couple of points: I asked my question in the same spirit as I've done in the past many times when I have sort of tested the waters as far as what the "going trends" are amongst parents of my son's peers in the neighborhood and on these boards and then tried to tailor them to my son and family.

Curfew, when my son was younger, is an example. When I was 18, my father expected me to be in at midnight as a 17-year-old high-school senior, even on prom night. I thought that was unreasonable at the time and still do. But, rather than act for or against that with my own son, I talked to the parents of kids my son's age in our neighborhood to see what the general concensus was regarding curfew and used that as a baseline.

What I'm trying to say is that this isn't about my son running the show and me meekly trying to smooth the waters. I like to gather information before I dictate rules to my son, unless it's a life or death matter, and then choose my battles. I'm not sure yet that this situation is one of those.

I agree with those of you who feel that this isn't so much a matter of rules but simple curtesy, and that's what I plan to emphasize to my son. I would much rather appeal to his sense of fairness and consideration and have him understand, emphathize, and act on that rather than taking his cell phone away (which, by the way, I've already done, at least temporarily, as a consequence) or punish him in some other manner.

As to the surgery, job, and school issue, the teaching hospital where this surgery is to be done is a five-hour round trip. And we need to do this twice. My husband and I made a decision to allow our son time to adjust to being home after his ten-month stay in a group home (this was not rehab, by the way--he isn't a drug addict, although he has used marijuana and probably Ecstacy in the past and is also probably occasionally smoking pot now), get through the holidays, complete his surgery before we issue any ultimatums.

Our son is a high-maintenance kid with anxiety issues and has needed a lot of support through his life and will no doubt continue to do so. Age has never been a defining factor in his maturing process ...he reaches milstones at his own pace, and we're used to this. The fact that he's 18 doesn't change this, and neither of us want or expect him to leave home until he's ready, unless his behavior becomes completely out of bounds and unacceptable.

That said, our son is taking some positive steps and has told us that he needs help with finding a job, and, on his own, has contacted and made an appointment with an agency that parteners with local businesses to help kids through the application and interview process. It also helps with independent living situations, should he desire it. This may not sound like a lot, but, trust me, for our son, it is a major step in the right direction.