Update: Detachment as Spiritual Practice, and an Update

[Scott_G]

I feel that I am finally nearing the end of the road of detachment. Attachment (and detachment) are ultimately about power and control. When we are attached to another, especially our children, they hold all the cards. They have they power and control. They make us do things we would not normally do, often either out of guilt or out of the false belief that what we are doing is actually helping them this time (as opposed to the 100 outer times our "help" did not help). They are master manipulaters, and WE, I repeat, WE allow ourselves to be manipulated. Just like we can't make them change, they can't make us do anything we don't want to, we simply let them do it to us, and by letting them do it, we hand the reins over to them, and they will keep using us as long as we allow it, and from what I have seen in my personal life, if we continue to allow it, they wll use us until we are all used up and dead. Regardless of how you travel the journey of detachment and how far you are willing or have to go, I believe the end of the journey is the same. We take the power back, and the former attached becomes powerless. Once WE hold the power, it is so much easier to free ourselves from the burden of the mess that is their lives. Once we hold the power, we can begin to see them for who they are, and accept them for who they are. We also realize that no matter how sad their situation is, we simply can not "fix" them. Once we hold the power, we can define the relationship (if we choose to continue one) on our terms, not theirs. Once they no longer control us, we can go on and live our own lives in a healthy manner, free from the burden of the manipulation and control of another.

To those on the outside looking it, detachment may seem like turning your back on someone in need, someone who is sick, but unless you have been there, you just don't understand. My wife and I used to watch the show "Intervention". We both have addicts on our sides of the family. While I am certainly no subject matter expert, I truly believe this: No one or no thing can ever make an addict stop using. All the promises, bargaining, and threats are useless in trying to get someone to stop. Addiction is a disease, but unlike other sicknesses where the ill want to do whatever it takes to get better, addicts might not even think they are sick, or maybe they feel powerless to stop, or maybe they just don't care. The only one who can stop an addict is the addict. And sadly, from what I have seen, the majority of addicts need to hit rock bottom before they see the light, and even then, recovery can be a long perilous journey. As heartbreaking as it is, the best I think we can do is to sit back and watch it unfold, while trying to maintain our own sanity and sense of normalcy. I feel like I am in a good place right now. I have let go of the anger toward my son. I have come to accept him for who he is. I won't support his lifestyle choices, but I want him to know that if he sincerely wants help to kick the drug habit, he knows where to find us, and his family is behind that choice 100%. Detachment really is freeing. In a bizarre way, my life seems like watching a TV show. I feel empathy and a bit of sadness for the characters in the show, but when it's over I turn off the TV and go on with my real life.

 

[Echolette]

I'll start with this...thank you for posting it. "The difference between enabling and helping is so remarkably small that it is a distinction easy to miss."

Right now I can't even afford to help. I can't go near even kindness to him. I want to kick him when I see him begging on the street. I want to rip his sign out of his hands and insist that he change it to "I already binged my way through my SSI, please give me more of your hard earned dollars because I am a useless piece of ****".

I can't afford to help because I'll drown. Not sure if I will drown in rage or sadness.

I was so committed for so long to being sure, that, at a minimum, he felt loved, valued, by some one, by me. Now I can't dredge up any of that..when I see him my face hardens, I can't smile. I cannot allow myself a kind moment between us because I will get sucked in again.

I liked the comment that we on this page are at the end of our parenting, our best years behind us, our years of hope and trying over with. I think part of the reason I joined this group with the explosive assertion that I was going to kill myself is that..(well first it is because I was crazed) and part of the crazed is that I've run out of things to do. All the counsellours, the teachers, the therapists, the mentors, the know it alls, the school coaches, the wilderness leaders, all of them, I always had some one to talk to, some one to run things by, some one to get mad at for not helping my difficult child enough, some one to blame, to demand of, to call, a new person to identify for a new role I hadn't tried yet. And now....nothing.No new routes to explore. No posse of concerned (mostly paid) adults. Not even the difficult child anymore...he is 99% absent as well, after using up all the air for so long. It feels like falling, like all the supports I was using to hold myself up went away.

Cedar...the realization that your kid or kids are...ew. I have to relearn, revisit that relatively new thought every day. My difficult child gets asked to leave diners even when he has money. He stinks. He looks creepy. He takes money and food from people who work for it. He does nothing to better himself. He came over a few weeks ago and I was watching a zombie tv show with his brothers. Afterwards I told him...if there were to be an apocolypse, a failure of resources, if we all had to start from scratch...I wouldn't want him around, because he would bring nothing. That he brings nothing now. That he only takes. That (sticking to the apocolypse theme) that he would have to be thrown out and left to die, because all he can do is sap resources. I was steady and calm about it. I just said it was so. That it had been so for 2 years, since he left school at 17 abnd started living on the streets.
I had to say it to him because I had never ever said it to myself. I always thought, Cedar, that he would grow up to be the fine young man we had intended, maybe the quirky talented musician, maybe the kind counsellour...but not this narcissistic filthy dirty taker.

The good thing out of this is that I can see how awfully much I tried to control everyone, and letting go of that is certainly good for my PCs. and for everyone around me. I've come a long way on that one.

One of the many bad things is that as I see my two teenage sons develop school resistance, and remember that that was the smoking gun with David...I can feel a yawning combination of panic and despair, like a cauldron opening in front of me. And on those days I cannot stay away from...what is wrong with me??? what did I do wrong? how did I ruin these people?

But the PCs are not the difficult child, they are stubborn foolish charming boys who aren't as good in school as they should be. They have no traces of difficult child's social incapacity.

but then I wonder...what did I do to him? am I doing it to them?

and then I have to shake my head hard and turn to reading the stories and thoughts that you all share.

thank you for that.
​

 

[Echolette]

Scott G,

you sound like you are in a good place. I hope you can stay there..as you said "a good place right now". Letting go of anger is such a gift....one of my favorite sayings is "holding on to anger is like eating poison and expecting the other person to die." Not that we want our kids dead, but you know what I mean. I understand your TV analogy too...I have that strange sense of disconnectedness with my difficult child too..people ask how I can stand it, how I live this way..the truth is that often I am not in that place. I return to my real world of work and family and sometimes I forget about him, or he is only a shadow.

 

[recoveringenabler]

I've been reading everyone's posts and I find myself wanting to say, quite loudly and with force, Echolette, Cedar and anyone else who has an adult kid who has gone on some other road then the one we had envisioned..........and is not participating in life as a functioning, contributing, connected adult............YOU DIDN'T DO ANYTHING WRONG!!! THERE IS NOTHING ELSE YOU CAN DO!!

Pardon me, but during my stint in difficult child hell, I surrounded myself with people who would say that to me, like every day, 5 times a day, until one day I believed them. You guys didn't do this to them. They made choices which lead them where they are, no one held a gun to their head, they all went quite willingly. Perhaps happily. While you are suffering, your kids are out panhandling, manipulating, using others, whatever they are up to, but they are not suffering, you are. They chose this, you didn't.

Without a constant supply of support, it is so easy to fall into that FOG I keep mentioning, the codependent FOG, which is this............difficult child asks or demands something, or you see them looking grim...............you immediately slip into guilt or "there must be something I can do to change this"....................I have the power to change this..................If I only do this one thing, it will be different.................this is all my fault and I must pay for this..............This time will be different..............I can't allow this...................I am a horrible parent...............and the biggest bugaboo of all, I can't handle this anxiety that doing nothing brings, so I will take some action, any action to make this horrible powerlessness, this utter lack of control, this remarkable sense of vulnerability, go away. For now. Temporarily, until the next powerless moment arrives and then I will repeat this whole cycle once again.

The only way out of this cycle is to tell yourself the truth of what is. Our kids are exactly what you see. Be angry. Be sad. Feel all of that, it's real. This is a long process to get through effectively and it goes all over the place, all those feelings surface continuously and with a vengeance as Echolette expressed. It's part of the way through.

As my very wise therapist told me repeatedly Cedar, "you do not have to stay on the phone listening to all of the antics your kids go through." That is abuse. They drag you into their world where you don't live and don't understand the language or the landscape and they terrorize you with it. Stop it. My therapist actually showed me the hand motion of holding the phone by my ear, saying, "thank you for sharing, I have to go now" and quickly putting the phone down. She said, "get really good at doing that." That was my practice for awhile, to just stop listening to stuff I had no control over and couldn't change, so why listen to it? I stopped completely. That was an important step.

Cedar, you guys are in the trenches now, yes, the snake pit, both your kids have surfaced now and are putting you through the ringer..............here is the opportunity to change the patterns you all set in motion many many years ago. Stop listening to your sons abuse. Say to him, "I will talk to you if you are respectful, however if you begin to be disrespectful, I will hang up. And, your father and I have decided to stop giving you any money or help at all until you show signs of helping yourself. " Once he begins his attack, calmly say, " I am hanging up now." Do not listen to his assertions about his present life being your fault, that is complete BS, it is his fault.

Your daughter has no right to involve you in her beatings, her insane lifestyle, what can you do other then send money? Don't stay engaged with her when she is drinking, you are talking to a substance, not your daughter. Set a boundary about that, 'we will talk when you are sober, otherwise do not call me. If you are not willing to help yourself, I am not willing to listen to you destroy your life.'

Your kids are not as unhealthy as you think they are, they are simply very good manipulators and they are very good at getting what they want and need from you and your husband. I would venture to day they are masters at it. As my daughter is too. As you are getting clearer about who they are, their masks are getting thinner and pretty soon the real people show up and show you their true colors and then you can make entirely different choices about how your life is going to go from now on. As we stop our enabling, they begin to stop their negative behaviors towards us but usually after some escalating bad behavior which allows us to really see the truth. Like with your sons recent bad behavior. Don't condone that treatment of you by giving him anything but a boot in the rear.

So, while this step is so devastating Cedar, it is also liberating..............it is the truth............so really keep your eyes and your ears opened to what is being said, stay very alert and if you go into the Fog, say, "I"ll have to get back to you on that." Once off the phone, post here, call a friend, or someone who can talk you out of the Fog. I am completely available to do that for you if you want to PM me. It takes a lot to get out of that fog, believe me. I watched myself slip in to that place over and over and over again. But, each time a therapist or my SO or my best friend, or someone was there to pull me out.

Just as I wrote that I thought of those old Tarzan movies from our youth, you know, the ones with Johnny Weissmuller? Well, remember the quicksand? They would slip into it and it would take monumental effort to be retrieved from it, if even possible............it sucked you down into the earth...............yuck...............that's just what the fog will do if you allow it, it's an extremely powerful force and we need help to stop going there.

Cedar, here's my unsolicited advice, don't take your daughter or your granddaughter in..........stay off the phone with your kids, stop giving them money or anything, stop giving them time and energy.........turn away from this as Scott said, like watching a TV show with odd characters, but you can turn off the TV. Turn it off now. This is so very hard, God, I know it is, I do, face this truth now and move away from your kids...........let them go into the lives they chose and accept it. It will set you free to do that, I promise. But you have to walk through this fire first, this recognition of who your kids are and your powerlessness and complete lack of responsibility. They both have their own karmic journey and all of this is a part of it, but in order for all of you to be free you have to stop allowing them to blame you, hurt you and in any way do you harm. Love yourself enough to stop allowing them to treat you unkindly.

It's a trap to ask how did this happen. We don't know. Trying to figure it out presumes there is someone or something to blame or some way to fix it. But there is not. Stop asking that question and start asking yourself "what do I want?" in reference to YOUR life, not your kids lives, they have to ask themselves their own questions.

As always, sending you lots of love and compassion for your journey home...............
Hang in there Cedar, you're right there on the precipice hanging over the edge .......right before we tumble into surrendering...................

 

[recoveringenabler]

Again, very well said Scott, I appreciate your candor and your health around your son's behavior.

 

[BusynMember]

Friends...I use many different meditations so that I don't get bored. It doesn't take much to distract me...lol.

If you go to YouTube and put in guided meditation or whatever kind of meditation you desire, you will receive choices.

I will post one that I have used and you can find the ones that suit you the most This particular one is very relaxing, but it's long.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m80rkYbgSwg

 

[Nomad]

Heartbreaking. This is only a tiny comparison, but our son had a bad difficult child year in High School (I sent him to boarding school for a year) and our difficult child daughter was her usual extraordinarily difficult self. I was a mess. I had to see a counselor that year. This is small potatoes compared to what you just described. My heart aches for you. What you do have On Your side is that you know how to detach and you know they are adults and that they need to figure this out on their own and leave you out. You don't spdeserve any of this, this isn't your fault, you deserve better and you must reach for better...reach for the best. God bless you Cedar...prayers have been said for you.

 

[recoveringenabler]

Thinking about you Cedar, hoping you are okay and (not so) patiently awaiting your next post so we can all give you a big group hug!

 

[scent of cedar]

Oh Recovering, thank you! I am smiling. :O)

Actually, things are going really badly. There are some good things, too.

Bad things: difficult child daughter is hospitalized. Broken ribs, collapsed lung, possible broken vertebra in neck and back. Domestic assault. Same man. Beating took place Tuesday evening. He brought her to hospital Wednesday afternoon because of the collapsed lung. Said injuries from snowmobile accident. They let him stay with her in the room, pretty much guaranteeing she would not file charges or make any accusations at all. Social worker now involved. Called hospital this afternoon and he is not there, so maybe charges have been pressed. We are making arrangements to collect her from the hospital ourselves when she is discharged, or to have family there take her. She is in Minnesota. We are in Florida. Here is a funny coincidence: husband just sold the car and bought this flashy little Mustang convertible. Not brand new or anything, just a cute little car, strictly for showing off and fooling around in. Definitely not for driving in snow or for tooling around in -30 degree temps we will be driving in if we go up North to collect difficult child daughter ourselves. Oh, how we laughed when we said, "No biggie that it isn't good in snow. We will never be going up North before the snow is gone, again!"

Ya.

difficult child has no I.D. again, so cannot travel by plane, train, or even, bus.

Bad Thing #2

This has to do with my sister. Basically, she is outraged at my telling her what I think she is doing when she is being manipulative. I mean literally outraged. Kind of scary. I am dealing with it beautifully. Can't believe the hostility in her.
I will make a separate post on that...but I don't know it has much to do with detachment. It definitely has to do with change, and with developing healthier, more realistic perceptions. So, I will post about it.

Good Thing #1

That I am dealing with sister beautifully, though it has been hard to break through my old conditioning. Don't want to rock the boat. Except that lately? I want the waters raging and I like it. Who knew she was so nasty when she didn't get her way. I mean, extraordinarily nasty. One of the things she FB back after being questioned re: recent possible manipulation: What did you do, have a stroke, that you make things up in your mind and try to blame it on me?

Chilling, huh?

Cedar

 

[recoveringenabler]

Oh my Cedar, I am at work now and I just threw everyone out after seeing your post!! I only have a moment before I am leaving but I just wanted to say, I am so sorry this is continuing for you with your kids, especially this horrible incident with your daughter.

My first thought with the snow is, can you rent a bigger, sturdier car for the trip? Or have someone else retrieve her? Is she going to stay with you in Florida? Oh my.

Can your daughter be committed to a hospital for awhile for observations, to perhaps give her some time to regroup and start some medication? I am so alarmed at how quickly this situation has deteriorated, I can't even imagine how you are feeling right now.

I think your sisters bad behavior is indicative of how someone responds when they are confronted with the truth.......you have been playing nice with her and in essence colluding with her to mask reality, when we rip that mask away, believe me, people are enraged. A lot of time and energy is put into those masks and literally, they feel as if their life depends on staying as far from the truth of who they are,................. so you have ended the pretend game and now you get attacked and blamed. It's what happens in dysfunctional families Cedar, no one in my family wants to spend any amount of time with me either, I tell the truth and that is dangerous!! But, you will be free of the lie and that is empowering, even if you lose a sister along the way. I say Way to Go Cedar!!

Considering your son and your sister are angry at you, I would venture to say that you are coming our of your secretive life and making some big waves for those around you who are heavily invested in you staying the same. It's hard, but man is it freeing too. You rock that boat right out of the water Cedar, celebrate your remarkable new self. I agree, once I stepped out, I liked those raging waters too!

I just had this image pop in to my mind of you very gently and very clearly saying to your daughter, "This is the last time we will rescue you from the life you've chosen. From here on out, I will not be pulled in to your world to watch you destroy yourself. If you want help, we are here 100%, without that promise, we are leaving now and don't want to be called when the next disaster happens." Even mentally ill people can think and reason Cedar, she is choosing this dangerous way of life.

I have to run now, but will check in later to see how you are. Gosh, sending you big hugs and lots of love and care.......hang in there............think your reactions through clearly, don't react like you usually do, think through the fog............good luck.xoxoxoxox

 

[recoveringenabler]

Just checking in Cedar to see how things are developing for you.............let us know how you are, I'm thinking of you and sending you lots of good vibes and saying a prayer too.......................hugs.............

 

[scent of cedar]

:O)

Feeling so special and cherished to see posts wondering how we are and wishing us well, Recovering. I appreciate!

We are trying to get past our own conditioning, our own old patterns. Truth is that difficult child daughter should be somewhere to receive the help she needs before arriving in the home ex-husband has created for himself and the children difficult child essentially abandoned. It is...it feels disloyal to examine the truth behind the automatic care-taking that happens when someone we love has been through what difficult child daughter has been through. I was reminded of these truths we have been shoving under the rug this morning, in a conversation with my twenty year old granddaughter.

We have been many good places together, to have that kind of trust and honesty between us. The truths behind why difficult child is where she is are hard to tell, hard to hear, hard to talk about...but she did that, confronted me with that, for the sakes of her little brothers.

A good and brave and honest (and, as she continually reminds me) grown up adult who can stand to know what is really happening with her mother.

This grandchild even suggested that there are families who turn away from the troubled person and that they should.

So, that is where we are with it, now. Last night, I needed to send pics to the police investigating the case. They need to know what difficult child daughter looked like before the beating....

Ew.

difficult child son is so flummoxed by my response to his latest salvos that he actually FB his sister. She saw his FB message before the beating, but never did answer it. Between the two of them, so difficult child daughter told me this morning, they have commiserated with one another in the past over the fact that, in the South, children and their families can live with their parents as long as they need to. They wonder why husband and I are not that way.

In the past, I would have said something placing the blame for that on husband ~ that he wants to enjoy retirement, travel, etc. In the past, I would have felt very ashamed that, though both kids have lived with us more than once, it was never with the idea that they would live with us permanently, or for as long as they needed to.

I don't feel that way, anymore.

I found it easy to say to difficult child daughter, instead of blaming husband, that the best thing for any adult is independence. I told her that, though we sent difficult child son money, I had told him that he needed to pick up, to support his family, to be a man. I also said that allowing family to live with us without a move out date weakens the kids, because they don't do what it takes to make it. I was tempted to add that addicts and alcoholics should never be allowed to live in anyone else's home, but I didn't. I was unprepared for the conversation, especially from difficult child daughter, lying in a hospital bed.

Your analogy of the FOG is a very good one, Recovering.

This is an issue I will need to think through.

The truth is that alcohol and drug use, not anything husband and I have done or not done for them, are the biggest pieces of this picture. husband and I have suffered more than either of the kids for what they have done.

This is a new thought.

I really am getting to a better place with my thinking.

Still very shaky, though.

Still, difficult child daughter feels she and her brother have been singled out. Whenever they have lived with us, it has always been understood that it is a temporary situation. Neither child likes that. Each feels entitled to what they see other families doing for their children ~ which is welcoming them home, with their families, for as long as they need to be there. We have heard this before, from both kids.

Especially given the conversation with his sister, I am thinking that is what difficult child son actually wants, now.

I am feeling defensive on this issue. What I "should" do, who I wish I were. Part of me? Spits back something about who I wish they were.

Bad Cedar.

***************

My sister has not responded further to FB. She did not answer the call I made to her, yesterday. The call was made as a way to act with courage, as a way to stand up. I am not sure whether I am afraid of her, afraid of what she will say, or afraid that there is something the matter with me, that I interpreted her actions as I did. Nonetheless, I felt strongly about it at the time, I still believe my perceptions were correct, and I am outrageously glad I raised the issue.

This is the second time I have raised an issue with my sister. About nine months ago, I raised an issue regarding her treatment of my brother. There was no resolution, other than the behavior I describe below. (This part was added on reread prior to posting.)

So, that whole thing seems a little unreal. What I expect is that my sister will bull her way through as though nothing has happened. This is what she has done regarding unpleasant things in the past. What I mean by that is that I think she will attribute the action she began to me, forgive me vocally and in writing for needlessly creating a situation out of nothing at all, and continue to "love" me because, as she said in her FB response after scolding me for making things up to disguise the fact that I didn't want her to visit...sisters ROCK.

Sister is very religious...that kind of religious which masquerades as having the ear of the Lord? So she is seldom wrong about anything for long. Faith can be so strengthening, as I am learning through the Joel Osteen materials. This sister's faith is something else altogether. In fact, you know where, according to my sister, I am going because I found the Osteen materials to be of some value.

Hopefully, not until that very place freezes over.

:O)

I get the impression that not many people in her life confront her about anything, at all. It's like expecting a conversation and being run over by a steam roller, instead. Tears, rage, neediness ~ any weapon that will work, employed one after the other. I found myself telling husband last night that, now that my sister is in what appears to be a stable marriage, has enough money, and appears to be happy in her life, I don't need to be invariably kind and supportive.

I feel a little guilty, feel like I have done something really bad, in a way. I understand from Recovering's comments about her own family that this is a normal response to challenging the way it has always been.

Cedar

Thank you so much for hanging in there through this with me. It is so helpful to post, and to receive response.

 

[recoveringenabler]

Cedar, you are "special and cherished" here and I imagine by everyone who knows you, even your ungrateful kids........

I'm sorry you are going through all of this Cedar, but at the same time, I think this is all coming up because you have changed, and when we change, those around us have to change too and since they didn't ask for the change, they get very angry and try to get us to go back to who we used to be. That is very typical behavior for any of us who have the courage to change old patterns with those we love. It isn't easy, but it is necessary.

My granddaughter told me repeatedly to detach and let go of her mother. She could see how much I suffered and how much her mother manipulated me way before I did. She consistently told me to "let go Grammy." She told her best friend's mother to borrow the book, Codependent no more, by Melodie Beattie from me when the mother was having trouble with her oldest daughter who treated her badly and refused to grow up. My granddaughter said proudly, "my grandmother went through so much with my mother, but in the end, she did the right thing, she let her go." Wow. From the mouths of babes. Listen to your granddaughter. And if you haven't already, read Trinity's post about detachment on the other side of the fence. Quite a few former difficult child's weighed in on how parents need to let go of their adult kids.

I know you've had counseling in the past Cedar, but that may be something to consider again now since because of all the changes you made, your kids and your sister are acting out. You're doing a great job, I am not implying you 'need' counseling, just that it may make this easier for you to have someone in your corner who can guide you and husband through and help you when you get stuck. It's hard. I really couldn't have done it without a lot of support when I slipped back in to the FOG.

"The truth is that alcohol and drug use, not anything husband and I have done or not done for them, are the biggest pieces of this picture. husband and I have suffered more than either of the kids for what they have done."

Cedar, that quote is the truth, that is where to put your focus, it is NOT your fault and you CAN'T control it or change it. All the trying in the world can't change it, only your kids can do that. And, just so you know, I don't know ONE person in my entire life whose adult kids still live with them. Perhaps if confronted with that BS again, you might respond by saying, "your father and I love you enough to let you go and find your own lives now. We are not going to enable you or rescue you or save you, it's your life and you get to decide how you want to live it."

In terms of those "shoulds" change the word to "could" and then you have a choice. I could do it, but I'm NOT. As a wise person once said to me, "thou shalt not should on thyself."

No "bad Cedar", honest Cedar, it must be put back onto them, they need to have natural consequences so that they learn and grow. Or not. But it isn't up to you. At some point it may indeed by prudent and right for you to share with them how your hopes for who they could have been have been dashed by their never ending childhoods and remarkable entitlement.

I'm sorry for this obvious judgement Cedar, but your sister sounds like a jerk. And a bully. And a victim. In my humble opinion, those who use religion to be right and judge others are the ones making the long descent into H*LL.

You shouldn't be kind to someone who treats you badly Cedar, even if it's your sister. Are you the oldest of your siblings? Where do you stand in the birth order? I am the oldest. I used to be what therapists call the "adaptive child, the compliant child" the one who gave in, helped others and didn't make any waves. Boy have I changed. I am the opposite now. The adaptive child is a defense mechanism in a dysfunctional family, be invisible, don't make waves, make nice, be willing, give in...............that is a soul killer Cedar, if you are like that and you are breaking out of that now, I applaud you and celebrate you. I crawled out of that space too, (with lots of help) and when I look back I feel so sad that I couldn't tell the truth, that it was terrorized out of me. But, that is no longer the case, I am true to myself and I honor myself. 25 years ago I had a similar experience with my brother, the one I was closest too. But as I got healthier I started to see how he used me and manipulated me and was in fact, a jerk. I tried to change it, but he was having none of it. I said I wanted a new relationship based in truth and mutual caring. He did not want that, he wanted me to stay the same, the adaptive giver. Uh, no. I've made that same choice now, probably 20 times, with family and friends. Once you start cleaning house and seeing the truth, it's pretty amazing how everything starts to change. It is not easy, but Cedar, it is the ONLY game in town. Being true to yourself and telling your truth and standing up for yourself and not allowing others to harm you is the most liberating and fantastic journey of a lifetime. I am your number one fan in this. We are soul sisters on this path.

I know you feel a little guilty, it's new behavior, you're used to being "nice" and doing what you used to believe was the right and best thing to do, but that wasn't being true to you and that is the most important thing. Your son, your daughter and your sister are going to really act up now, saying and doing whatever they can to make you go back to nice Cedar. Don't do it. Stay the course. Stay honest. Don't respond to stupid comments designed to hurt you. Stand tall.

Let that red hair down, have a Manhattan with husband, dance a little, and free yourself from all of the roles you believe define you, make up new ones..............ones that fit who you really are. We have time left to live Cedar, we're not dead yet, we have more adventures to have, more traveling to do, more laughing and loving and dancing and joy...............break the old roles and move on out.

When my step daughter was younger she used to love the Spice Girls. I listened to a lot of their songs and watched their videos with her. I liked them. I told her that I was an OLD SPICE GIRL now. That's us Cedar, OLD SPICE GIRLS!!

 

[scent of cedar]

Ha! Recovering, you always help me see things from a sunnier place. I thought of you, and of all the things we talked about here, as I was FB with my sister regarding my awfulness toward her, yesterday.

I am the eldest, Recovering. Both my parents worked. At twelve, I willingly took on the role of cook, cleaner, laundress, and person responsible for what went on while my parents were gone. There are three younger sibs. To this day, I am basically proud of how I did what I did. You could have blown me over with a feather when they all somehow managed to survive without me when I left home. (TRUE!) Though we are all in or nearing our sixties now, the siblings are like a litter of puppies, each of us struggling, still, to get enough milk out of the mother to survive. So damaged herself, my mother plays us one against the other, always with the intent of solidifying her own position.

Especially since my father's death, my mother's influence is increasingly divisive and destructive.

She acts out with shockingly hurtful accuracy and regularity.

So...I am a little torn, this morning, between celebrating having called my sister on her manipulative behaviors and regretting that I did that. But there are times, Recovering, when what I want is not to be identified with any of them, ever again. We are each so obviously, horribly, dysfunctional in our own ways that being together is like whirling through a cacophony of meaningless sound and color, my mother presiding.

Bad Cedar, to feel so hostile, to be so judgmental. After all...everyone is smiling. What could be wrong?


****************

Recovering? My hair is mostly gray, these days. :O) But you know what? I am going to use that imagery as I go through this. That is way helpful, Recovering. I was beginning to see myself as sort of gray and shriveled. Here is an interesting thought: Remember how we talked about events conspiring to create change? So, this is like, the Perfect Storm. I do not believe I would have had the presence of mind, or the sense of self, to do what I am doing now without this site, and without your support, especially. I tell you thank you so often. I sincerely appreciate your strength, and the time you have taken to read and respond to me, Recovering.

Your granddaughter sounds so bright and strong! I am happy you took her, and raised her, and got to experience what it is supposed to be to raise a child. I love mine so much, too. The girls lived with us off and on as they were growing up. Twice, I home schooled well enough that they didn't fall behind? And I will never forget scrambling to get my algebra skills in order! Neither will they, I don't think.

:O)

Good memories.

******

I am sorry you had to go through something similar with your siblings. Even now though, as I begin changing what was, I prefer what I have now, chaotic as it feels, to what passes for family in my family of origin. It wasn't that I didn't see the manipulations or hatefulness before. I did. The difference is that I did not feel I had the power to confront it, or that it would be right to do so. I disbelieved what I thought I knew.

As you noted, Recovering (and I felt a zap of strength shoot up my spine the second I read it) I do feel guilty. I feel apprehensive about the consequences, both to myself (targeted isolation) and to my sister if she has no one to witness for her. Neither of my brothers is at a place where he can see the damage our mother continues to inflict. It is interesting to note though, that the wives do see it. The wives or husbands of my mother's grandchildren see it even more clearly.

So, one way or another, the brothers too, are being made uncomfortable trying to explain the status quo.

*****

There is a part of me that needs nurturing as I go through this, a part that feels wrong and cut off and confused. (Which could be translated: As I don't get my fix of having fixed something to hold off the worse things, I am experiencing anxiety. And I am the one who created this. WHAT WAS I THINKING?!?) I am going to find imagery of successful families, of strong, successful women, of warriors and heroes and quests, to soothe that broken-hearted little part of me.

There was a time my parents and I did not speak for five years.


*******

I am considering therapy, Recovering. Someone husband and I could see together and then, that I could continue to see. We are both running a little ragged, these days.

***************

So, for anyone following this incredible discussion between Recovering and I, this is my rallying cry. It is how I took the courage to begin the quest, and (in addition to posting here and Recovering's responses)

:O)

it holds me steady as I go through it: I want to be present. I want to be clear eyed, and clear headed, enough, to respond to my children from a place of strength. Turns out, as I go through this, that I am humongously stronger, saner, and more centered than I thought. If you are considering making these kinds of changes, it is only scary or sad for a little time.

And then, you can breathe.

It was never that I didn't know things were forever out of whack in my family of origin, it was that I didn't know another way to fix it than to fix what it looked like. That is what I carried into my adult life. Now, just lately, I am coming to understand that it cannot be fixed. It is what it is. I cannot surmount or stitch it up into something it isn't. The false notes get louder and more discordant, the healthier I become.

Bad Cedar, to say so aloud.

:O)

I may change my Board name to Bad Cedar.

I like her.

 

[recoveringenabler]

You're a brave woman Cedar, I am continually impressed with how you handle all these really challenging events in your life, your willingness to change and look at all of it differently speaks to the level of courage and resolve you have. Bravo. And, I know it feels weird too.

Well, considering your past "mothering" of your siblings and your taking care of your kids no matter what, I can see that this is quite the large pattern in your life. As it's been in mine. It's difficult to change the tide that has been that way for half a century or more. But you're doing it. Seems like I did it incrementally over a long period of time and you have chosen to take the whole thing and work it through all at once..............more power to you Cedar. Geez. You are brave.

I think with so much dysfunction in a childhood we grasp onto a role, in our case, the caregiver, the enabler, the "mother' who wasn't there for us or for our siblings and we hold on tight............it not only defines us it gives us many pats on the back for being such a good little soldier to help so many. However, that is a deep trap which encases us in a false persona which was devised when we were children and gained strength in a world which can give us a lot of praise and acknowledgment for being a good girl who helps others...............the part that no one sees is that it is at OUR expense, it depletes us, takes all the choice away, robs us of having our own lives to invent and nurture because the focus is external, not internal.

I have a younger sister whom I raised from the age of 11. She is the one person in the world who shared the same experience as I did in my family, as a female. 15 years ago, in order to protect herself from the family she threw all of us overboard..........she has some kind of amnesia about what happened to her as a child and rather then risk who were the actual perpetrators she got rid of all of us and never speaks to us. It was one of the most hurtful and sad things in my whole life, to lose my sister that way. I was the one who nurtured her, got her a therapist, got her in to art school, helped her to become who she is, and I was treated the same as my parents, as if I harmed her. It hurt like the dickens for a long time until I learned to accept it without taking it personally. It was what she had to do to survive. I miss her all the time and always hope she will "wake up"and remember, but so far that has not happened. I only have a relationship with one brother now. Everyone else, for one reason or another, has succumbed to their inner demons. It's hard to walk away, but I did. I once read that on the spiritual path you are always weeding your garden. I think that's true. As we grow and heal and learn, we are put in positions to make some hard choices about the energy we want around us.............and although sad, in order to be whole and complete those choices become necessary for our well being.

I like your "bad" Cedar self, it's honest. It must feel so good too. The word I always use is "glee" the freedom to be myself is gleeful.

Oops, I am leaving for the day to go for a drive with SO, have lunch out and just hack around. I will continue my thoughts later.............in the meantime Cedar, enjoy your day...............capture that spontaneous joy that you have with your husband, Dean Martin, and that playfulness you share. Sending you big hugs............xoxoxoxo

 

[recoveringenabler]

"It was never that I didn't know things were forever out of whack in my family of origin, it was that I didn't know another way to fix it than to fix what it looked like. That is what I carried into my adult life. Now, just lately, I am coming to understand that it cannot be fixed. It is what it is. I cannot surmount or stitch it up into something it isn't. The false notes get louder and more discordant, the healthier I become."

Cedar the above quote is very wise and very true. I believe that to the degree that we are aware of that truth, we can then shift our beliefs and as a result our experience of life and how we perceive it into something entirely different. We did the best we could with what was in front of us and at some point, we were supposed to let go, but the "trying to make it into something it isn't" part had become who we were. That's okay, we did the best we could...............but now? Now we know better, there is way more than our limited perception of that truth we inherited and then created to survive.

Like me, as we extricate ourselves from the "roles" we took on and allow our true selves to emerge.......... beliefs, expectations, judgments, fears and people begin to fall into our rear view............a casualty of our growth. It is the way it is for a seeker of truth.

I think it's imperative to get nurtured during this "perfect storm" you've invited in............of course you would feel wrong, cut off and confused, it is a monumental change you are going through and it feels scary and does indeed cause anxiety......... and the thought "What have I done?" NOT stepping in to fix it is just as powerful a shift as if you were addicted to heroin, it is, in my way of thinking, a withdrawal from a long, long addiction. That's how we lowered the anxiety as a child, now it causes anxiety. Walking away from something that kept us on familiar ground produces a lot of anxiety, especially when those around you are flipping out and making you wrong. That place of change, that internal conflict to go with the truth or stay mired in old thinking is what causes the fog...............will I succumb to conditioned thinking or pop out into a new reality and risk the unknown? Hang on bad Cedar...............

I like what you said about feeling stronger, saner and more centered, I feel that way too. I think that is the remarkable reward for being true to oneself, a certain comfort within that can't be there when we are busy being something other then who we really are. I love that feeling. Enjoy this Cedar.................. all of those moments of 'bad' Cedar emerging will weave together into authentic, whole, beautiful, joyful, connected, clear, strong and courageous Cedar.

 

[scent of cedar]

It's difficult to change the tide that has been that way for half a century or more. But you're doing it. Seems like I did it incrementally over a long period of time and you have chosen to take the whole thing and work it through all at once..............more power to you Cedar. Geez. You are brave.


it depletes us, takes all the choice away, robs us of having our own lives to invent and nurture because the focus is external, not internal.

It was what she had to do to survive.

I agree about the mothering role, Recovering. What I would add, at least for me, is that my caretaking was sealed in shame. As with so much in my life, a pat on the back or an "atta boy" only means I have not failed...yet. It was a pleasant surprise to me that I was able to do something so well. Know how I know I did it well? My mother was showing off how clean everything was, even the closets, to one of her friends.... By that time, I had learned to take pleasure in my competence myself, and her praise, especially the showing off what a great mom she was because she had created a built in maid out of me, didn't please me overly much. So interesting to post to you like this, Recovering. This is another memory, remembered with a tinge of dead fish in the air around it, but never fully understood. Other kinds of abuse grew out of that competence. An abusive person will not stand for any smallest sign of recovery, in her victim.


*******

I thought about what you said, Recovering, about your having healed in increments. Here is the difference. Here is why I can face it square on and respond differently once I see a way and a reason to do that. The abuse I suffered was so patently abuse that I always knew it was wrong. Because I knew it was wrong and yet, it happened to me, I made sense of it the way all abused kids do. Though response to me in the real world was a different thing (especially as I approached and entered puberty and then, entered the heady, powerful world of a physically healthy young woman), I knew the inner truth of fraudulence. It was this truth that reverberated when my first therapist (a male) experienced what I now understand was transference. I had gone to him to be judged, to find out where I had gone wrong, what I had done to my daughter.

And he judged me.

Though he was wrong in what he did, he opened all the echoing chambers and compartments where the demons were stored.

And Frankenstein looked like a little kid's toy, compared to what I found there. I had already worked so hard to get there, to find those old traumas.

KABOOM!

Ew.

But I lived.

One day, if you like, I will post one of the poems from that time, here. It was through the poetry that I was able to recover myself. Through the poetry, and through an excellent female therapist who had me in family of origin group therapy after our first individual session.

I was not able to speak of what happened with the first therapist, even with her, for years.

Anyway. Blah, blah, blah, poor Cedar.

My point, and I do have one, as Ellen Degenerist likes to say :O), is that your abuse seems to have been couched in different terms. You posted once that your mother had apologized, had confessed that she did what she did because her mother had done the same to her. You would have had to understand and rejudge and remake the tradition behind that kind of abuse. It would have seemed more shadowy, less certainly wrong, easier to be left without a clear path to healing.

All I have ever really had to do is confront the shame of what happened happening to me. In essence, my abuse comes down to rationalizing why I was punished. I always knew the punishing was disconnected and wrong. This understanding enables me to discount every abusive word and act I can uncover. (Another key Recovering, as I reread to post: I have to uncover them to heal them. "Who could find them all?")

I just had to be healthy enough to see it for what it was, and to see ongoing abuse for what it is.

Your path, without a clear villain, has been more difficult, harder to find and follow.

So it seems to me, this morning.

*************

So it occurred to me this morning, Recovering, that, unlike me, you have had to question and teach yourself so thoroughly, have had to dig so deep even to understand why a thing was wrong, before you could see it, before you could define it well enough, to heal it,, that you had to take it in increments. The danger in every healing is that old "pass it back or pass it on". Is the lust of vengeance, is the understanding that, having survived your abuse you can shame, you could actually destroy, your abuser, publicly and privately.

But is that who you want to be? (I keep getting your healing confused with my own, Recovering. Vengeance was a way big thing, for me. Maybe, not so, for you.)

So far, Recovering, so very, very good, for both of us.

Recreation of the self, allowing permission for different, less safe kinds of judgments and actions, is scary, when our role models have been so dangerously ill.

I try to be careful, to think about it...but sometimes, I just can't see the right action, and I have to wait. Which is why difficult child kids drive me batty. Something must be done, NOW.

What I am learning, from you Recovering, and from everyone here on the site, is that maybe, that thing that has to be done now is to wait. To watch and see and listen.

To give ourselves the gift of time.

*************************

I quoted your comment on your sister because that is a healthy and healing way to see mine, too.

Thank you, Recovering. It is so difficult to know what is the healthiest way to think about these things.

I really like that way of seeing.

Cedar

 

[recoveringenabler]

Geez, Cedar, I'm sorry. The thought of you as a child suffering hurts my heart. Of any child suffering..................

I understand the distinction you make in the differences in our particular childhood wounds...........you're correct in that I was not aware my experience as a child was abuse until I got considerably older, thank you for observing that. It was easier to see with my Dad as he raged and was loud and scary, but the psychological, manipulating, secretive 'stuff' my mother did was like dealing with smoke and mirrors................always the thought, "is that really what's happening here?" As you mentioned earlier, it is important to have a witness to the struggle, in therapy or someone who can validate it. It took a long time for me to uncover the layers of deception & manipulation and to begin healing. First you have to know it happened before you can deal with it. Yes, it was hard to "find and follow", I appreciate you understanding that.

I am sorry you went through that ordeal with that male therapist. Yikes.

No, you're right, vengeance was not a thing at all to me...............I internalized all of it ..............and presumed there was something wrong with me. In addition to being the enabler, I was also the accomplisher...........always striving to gain approval as I was in search of my value.

I do agree that when we are in doubt about what to do, then waiting is the appropriate response. In my waiting periods, I really relied on my therapist, my parent group, my SO and this forum to keep me as far away from the FOG as I could get. I think part of the healing is being able to negotiate the new territory of "the in-between-time" where we take no action............ learn to sit in the open space of new thoughts.........and allow ourselves the necessary time to make different, healthier, well thought out responses.

I don't think we have to extricate all of the hurts.............I think we have to let the feelings the hurts caused us out........fear, shame, grief, anger all of it. The expression of those feelings, in my experience, is the culmination, the healing. I think that's what we fear the most, but it's the way through.

I would love to read one of your poems Cedar, whenever you would like to share them.

It is an interesting dialogue we have here Cedar...........our kids have brought us to a new understanding of our own backgrounds and the opportunity to change old patterns so that we are all free to grow. The fog has lifted............

 

[trinityroyal]

I try to be careful, to think about it...but sometimes, I just can't see the right action, and I have to wait. Which is why difficult child kids drive me batty. Something must be done, NOW.

What I am learning, from you Recovering, and from everyone here on the site, is that maybe, that thing that has to be done now is to wait. To watch and see and listen.

To give ourselves the gift of time.

Cedar, this quote just leaped out at me, as it echoes one of the most valuable lessons my life has taught me. Sometimes the best thing to do is...nothing.

The same fierce independence that helped me in becoming a "near-miss difficult child" also got me into trouble more than once. I would have information, or things, or know people, that other people needed. I would offer these things up freely in an effort to be helpful. And then, all of a sudden everyone else's troubles became my troubles. In my circle, the solution became "ask Trinity" rather than "call so-and-so", or "do such and such". The more readily I answered, the more people unburdened themselves to me -- and the heavier my burden became.

One day I woke up, and decided that it was the day I wasn't going to do it anymore. I started saying "I'm not sure" or "I don't know" or "I'm sure you'll figure that out, you're resourceful". And the people in my circle started to. Ineptly at first, usually not the way I would do it. But the weight on my shoulders was no longer crushing me, and it got lighter every day. My favourite response nowadays is "What do you think?" or variations on that theme. Answer a question with a question. The height of bad etiquette, but delightful fun. And it puts the blame, or the glory for that matter, squarely where it should be, on the shoulders of the person who has a problem that needs solving, not on the offerer of a solution.

 

[scent of cedar]

That is the right attitude to take, Trinity. And you are right. I usually do come up with something for the person to try. I am going to try that for a day or two with the kids.

Things do have a way of resolving without our help if we give that a chance.

Cedar