What now

[JayPee]

Wise,

We learn in Al anon that we are "sick" from the disease. I say this with utmost respect and kindness but I hear in your questioning yourself the kind of "sickness" I still am trying to heal from and wonder if you might be experiencing a little bit of that too.

For me years of living with an alcoholic and the affects from it have forever changed me. I more often times than not, do not value myself, I second guess my decisions thinking that I'm not capable of making sound, wise decisions. I always worry I am offending someone else with little to no care or concern for myself. These are just a "sampling" of the way the disease has affected me.

I think you need to allow yourself the opportunity to make a mistake. If you misjudged your daughter with regards to the safe it doesn't make you abusive or unkind. You are simply working off years and years of experience and gut intuition from past experiences with your daughter in coming to these conclusions. Addicts often (I think unintentionally) are manipulative and can turn the situation around making us think "we've" got it all wrong. We walk away feeling guilty and unworthy. Yuk, I hate that!

We don't have to be perfect all the time. I think those are our own self-imposed guidelines from what we suffer with. We beat ourselves up if we do. You wouldn't tell a friend who made a mistake to keep punishing herself for a wrong decision. You'd love her, support her and strengthen her up. Why can't we do the same for ourselves?

 

[WiseChoices]

Wise,

We learn in Al anon that we are "sick" from the disease. I say this with utmost respect and kindness but I hear in your questioning yourself the kind of "sickness" I still am trying to heal from and wonder if you might be experiencing a little bit of that too.

For me years of living with an alcoholic and the affects from it have forever changed me. I more often times than not, do not value myself, I second guess my decisions thinking that I'm not capable of making sound, wise decisions. I always worry I am offending someone else with little to no care or concern for myself. These are just a "sampling" of the way the disease has affected me.

I think you need to allow yourself the opportunity to make a mistake. If you misjudged your daughter with regards to the safe it doesn't make you abusive or unkind. You are simply working off years and years of experience and gut intuition from past experiences with your daughter in coming to these conclusions. Addicts often (I think unintentionally) are manipulative and can turn the situation around making us think "we've" got it all wrong. We walk away feeling guilty and unworthy. Yuk, I hate that!

We don't have to be perfect all the time. I think those are our own self-imposed guidelines from what we suffer with. We beat ourselves up if we do. You wouldn't tell a friend who made a mistake to keep punishing herself for a wrong decision. You'd love her, support her and strengthen her up. Why can't we do the same for ourselves?

JayPee,
Thank you so very much for that. Yes!!! I am in my sickness, absolutely! I am not functioning. I am still in my nightgown. I can't eat or sleep. I have anxiety to the max, adrenaline rushing through me. Only good thing is I have lost 3 pounds from it. I have to find the strength to get up and take care of myself. It will make me feel better. I sobbed for over an hour last night in a way that I have not cried in I don't know how long.

You are right that indecision and second guessing are all part of my disease. And that is what I am doing. I am wanting to take on blame and guilt and fault so I can "fix" it . I am a big fixer. Let's return everything to how it was and not rock the boat. Because I am afraid of abandonment. And when I do that , I abandon myself.

Your post made me feel hope and strength.

 

[JayPee]

Wise,

Let's not forget the other elements with Covid-19 that are affecting us. For myself, I can't go to the gym anymore and I don't have a treadmill anymore either . The lack of exercise affects our endorphines which affect our moods and well-being. Also, we are bombarded with news that is to help inform us but has a two-edged sword and often times makes us feel like the world is coming to an end. We already suffer from the FOG (fear, obligation and guilt) about our adult children and then you top it off with the pandamic and presto-bingo you've got more anxiety! A lot of us are fixers and rescuers here and our hands are literally tied from "helping" because there is no help we can really give until a cure and/or the subsiding of this virus begins. We are having to practice Al anon more than ever. No fixing, no rescuing, no curing, no controlling. It's like putting Martha Stewart in a kitchen and telling her not to bake something! It virtually feels suffocating. I feel like it's definitely a life lesson for myself to make me realize, I never was in control before...I just thought I was.

We have to keep turning it over to God. You always say (which I love)...get up and adjust your crown.
That's just what we have to keep doing

 

[WiseChoices]

Wise,

Let's not forget the other elements with Covid-19 that are affecting us. For myself, I can't go to the gym anymore and I don't have a treadmill anymore either . The lack of exercise affects our endorphines which affect our moods and well-being. Also, we are bombarded with news that is to help inform us but has a two-edged sword and often times makes us feel like the world is coming to an end. We already suffer from the FOG (fear, obligation and guilt) about our adult children and then you top it off with the pandamic and presto-bingo you've got more anxiety! A lot of us are fixers and rescuers here and our hands are literally tied from "helping" because there is no help we can really give until a cure and/or the subsiding of this virus begins. We are having to practice Al anon more than ever. No fixing, no rescuing, no curing, no controlling. It's like putting Martha Stewart in a kitchen and telling her not to bake something! It virtually feels suffocating. I feel like it's definitely a life lesson for myself to make me realize, I never was in control before...I just thought I was.

We have to keep turning it over to God. You always say (which I love)...get up and adjust your crown.
That's just what we have to keep doing

Thank you so much!!!! So much yes!!!! I love when you quote me back to me. I better get up and adjust my crown and take a shower and start living.

 

[Copabanana]

Dear Wise

I cannot leave any stone unturned. I have to make sure I am doing this right, being fair.

Why? I think here you're missing the forest for the trees. Your daughter has been oppositional, undermining, insulting and difficult. Even though we understand why, it's still insufferable. Has she been fair and transparent with you? No. Not that I have seen.

I don't see really where you haven't been fair. Rather it's her who has concealed, manipulated, resisted. Where is the responsibility yours, for her behavior and choices? On the other hand, she is an adult and as such merits privacy to a point (as far as it's legal and safe.)

the book safe

The issue is NOT the book safe. The issue is that she is trying to grow up. On the one hand she does independent things, like acts self-determining, wanting things her way, her rules. On the other hand she still acts like a teenager. Hiding things from you. Acting rebellious, put upon, the injured party. You have a choice here. To decide to focus on the important stuff, the macro. The big picture. And to compromise, ignore, or set a limit on the micro. The micro is the therapist, the witchcraft, etc. That's what you have doing. You have focused upon the big picture, and tried to minimize the noise. It's worked, to a point, but you've been willing to pay the price, so far.

What if the book safe was for hiding her tip money?

What if it was? There has been consistent and ongoing problems. You want your rules. She bucks them and resents them and resents you. This is just one of a series of issues. It's not that important in itself. I don't see you as necessarily having to take a stand about the book safe. Or any other one thing, unless it threatens her safety or the families.

She said that she lives in an abusive situation.

She is free to leave. She doesn't want to. Or she would. She has the means. I had been out of the house years by the time I was her age.

What if we are accusing her wrongly?

I don't see you as accusing her. I see you as asking her to be accountable and transparent. Which she feels to be intrusive and abusive. She is just not capable at this point of acting above board, cooperative, responsible and grateful, with you, in your home. It will come. But it's not happening now.

How can you take responsibility for her behavior? You can't. You are not responsible for her attitudes, grievances. Those are a product not of your behaviors and choices and psyche but of hers. You can't be responsible for her. I don't see how you can. Nor do I think she's served by your being a doormat.

Personally, I think she deserves to have a private life. I think she deserves to buy safes for whatever purpose she chooses. She is an adult over the age of majority. If she is doing something criminal, which you have never asserted, even that is dealt with by the legal system, not by mothers and fathers.

But you have a right to allow her to continue to live in your home.

If we don't like how they live, the problem is ours. Because we have not established and enforced boundaries consistent with our needs. But the thing is, I think we don't force the issue, or keep pushing the same rock up the hill, because we want to, on some level. We are focused upon what we think is their welfare, and think we're doing the right thing.

I continue to believe that you don't want your daughter to leave. I think you are twisting yourself into a pretzel to try to rationalize her behavior, so that you don't have to take a stand, and do something you don't want to do. You don't want her to leave. You don't want to make her leave.

If that is the case, I think the thing to do might be for YOU to back off in the way that you can, and pick your battles.

The problem here is I think you think you SHOULD have her leave. I think you have the right to decide that based upon your particular situation and needs. That there are no shoulds.

I think given everything going on in the world right now, it might be the time to consider compromise. Your daughter does rein in her behavior somewhat when called upon it. And her consistently better functioning counts for a whole lot.

 

[WiseChoices]

Copa, yes, that is it! I do not want her to leave. I dread it. And yes, I think she should leave given her behavior. And she feels my ambivalence which causes her ambivalence to the point that she wishes she could just hex me away.

I am willing to compromise if she is. But at the moment she is not talking to me. She goes to work, comes home, goes to her room. I made her food and offered it when she got home and she said she was not hungry. She is so angry at me. Maybe we can have a dialogue once she has cooled off.

It is also true that she has been verbally abusive to me as my best friend pointed out to me. And I need to look at that. That I am willing to abandon myself by accepting that because I have accepted it. I am diminishing my own self worth by teaching her it's ok to treat me like that.

My emotions are tied to who she was, my darling daughter. Thats the one I can't lose. My head sees how she disrespects and dispises me.

 

[Copabanana]

But at the moment she is not talking to me. She goes to work, comes home, goes to her room

Who cares? Let her. What does it have to do with you? Wise. You run after her. For your own needs. You have control over this. Stop it!

She is so angry at me. Maybe we can have a dialogue once she has cooled off.

Why? Why seek somebody out who is treating you badly? What is there to talk about?

Wise. She will not, should not, and cannot give you what you believe you need from her. Only you can give yourself that. At one point when you were a baby and child, you sought that from a parent. And did not get it.

Your daughter can't give you that. It's not good for her. You can be a good mother to yourself, but it's not your daughter's job to do it.

It is also true that she has been verbally abusive to me

This is old news. You can let it go. You have many, many times. But refer above. Why should you seek her out, if she is abusive to you, or DOES NOT WANT TO TALK. Be mad! You've got better things to do.

My head sees how she disrespects and dispises me.

You're right. This is in your head. Yes. She does treat you disrespectfully. Maybe it's because she sees you disrespecting yourself, by running after her, or twisting yourself into a pretzel taking responsibility all over the place. Maybe she sees you as always raising your hand to take responsibility for things that have nothing to do with you.

But she does not despise you. She may behave despicably, but that does not mean there's anything about you to despise. All of that is in your head, about yourself.

On some level all of this has nothing to do with her. These are your issues.

I think this needs to be sorted out. You've made a lot of headway. You know now. You want her to stay. That's your position. Your choice. For now.

You have no control over her choices, what she does. She may decide to leave next week. Or she may choose to behave so poorly next week that you will choose to have her leave. But for now you know you want her to stay.

You can choose to let the book safe go. You can think about what happened and take a moral inventory. What was your part? You can own it. But that doesn't mean you have to have any dialog with her. Let her do her own moral inventory. Or not. That's her business.

You only have to take a stand about things that relate to you, your household, your family and your business. Wise. If you want her to stay, you have to give a little. I think you're too much in her business. It's not good for either of you. You have some responsibility to make this work too. Not just her.

Any other parent here can have another perspective if they choose. But you have a right to your own. I do think Busy made a good point about the coronavirus. If you feel confident she's being self-protective. Because with that the welfare of all of you are at stake.

As far as her compromising, I would not get in any negotiations with her. That gives her way too much power. I would ignore her.

 

[Copabanana]

she has been verbally abusive to me

Look. Most children are "verbally abusive" to their mothers at one time or another. We overlook it. First of all, because they're small, or minors, and unable to look after themselves without us, or legally we're unable to throw them out, yet. There is no knee-jerk formula that says, they disrespect us: they're out. We are the parents. We have the power. Hold your own power. Her behavior does not have the power. She does not have the power. You hold the power. You can decide according to criteria you decide upon.

We have already established many times over that she is having trouble growing up. She is ambivalent about it. Sometimes she backslides big time and acts like a baby. At the same time she acts like your superior. This is all too ridiculous.

You have the right to ignore this, and to consider it all so much noise, too much smoke. Too much ridiculousness. You do not have to let it enter your radar.

You are not responsible for her behavior. You are not responsible for her choices. You can't make her by your wishes, wants, efforts to do any one thing. Only she can. If she acts stupidly, you are not responsible to check her like she is 5 years old.

When I write that we as parents, I am my son's mother, have a moral obligation, moral imperative, to take a stand that he be a good person, does not mean that I have any power to make this so.

With your daughter, she's trying. Anybody could see this. She is not acting corrupt. She's not acting lazy. She's not acting cruelly, Except to you. And you have a part in that.

Which is to say that I think you have leeway with her.

That I am willing to abandon myself by accepting that

You are NOT abandoning yourself. You're just picking your battles. You're overlooking her defensive, immature, reactive behavior, in large part, for her greater good. This is what being a parent is. Part of it, at least.

There may be a point that you decide to view this differently. That you decide it is against her interests to keep tolerating this. Maybe tomorrow you'll see it all differently. But let yourself off the hook today. Please.

I think there's a lot to be gained by working this through, rather than taking a stand over something non-consequential. You have a part to take in this. You have learning here.

 

[Copabanana]

My emotions are tied to who she was, my darling daughter. Thats the one I can't lose. My head sees how she disrespects and dispises me.

This is the crux of all your pain and struggle with her. Your darling daughter needs to grow up. She's trying with all of her heart. She needs you to let her. She needs space. She needs you to be okay, letting her grow up. She is afraid that you're not okay. That's why she's so angry at you.

It's not as you think. She doesn't disrespect you. She doesn't despise you. She loves you too much. The more you back off, the less she will act nasty towards you. The more you try to control the situation, look to her for reassurance, try to push her, the more obnoxious she will act.

 

[WiseChoices]

Well, I have to say I have backed off. I don't ever ask to spend time with her anymore. I let her come to me for conversation - or not. I take care of myself and I have my own schedule. I am busy. I I have made every effort to show her I will be alright when she leaves. She has set several deadlines to move out and then blown her money and asked us to stay. We both agreed provided she be respectful. I let her be. And things had gotten better between us. She hugged me the other day and said she loved me and I was important to her. I was shocked.

I took issue with her lying to me and I took issue with her having paraphernalia mailed to my house.

I would like her to leave on her terms when she is ready. With love and courtesy. I always thought I would help her move and decorate when our relationship was close.

I have worked really hard at letting go , of not getting into her business. I don't discuss her psychiatric appointment, her medications , I don't ask any questions. I don't ask about her friends. She sits by me sometimes and tells me about friends from work. I listen. I try very hard to only comment when she specifically asks me something. I struggle with this one but I try. I am human and a work in progress. Progress not perfection. I am a far cry from who I used to be.

When she had an accident, I only answered specific questions. I tell her she can handle things. She asked for number of my body shop and I gave it. She never called and never had the repair done. I didn't say a word about it.

So when you mentioned compromising, I assumed that meant communication. I don't really know how to compromise without communication.

 

[Copabanana]

So when you mentioned compromising, I assumed that meant communication. I don't really know how to compromise without communication.

Your standard is: compromise necessitates communication. That's your standard. See? Already there is the expectation, the imposition of your rule, your standard, as you see it. She is not you. She does not have to buy in. She doubt she will.

This is reminding me of the occasion when she would not leave a note about when she'd be home. You insisted this was the correct and decent thing to do. It is the correct and decent thing to do. But what if her needs are different. She is forced then, to be wrong, according to your rules. This is how she feels.

Can you conceive of compromise as something in you, that does not require her to submit to you? That is how she feels it.

Can you imagine the two of you on the same page, as your interest and hers as the same?

This is not about your loss. You have made no mistakes. This is not about you being bad. This is not about a win/lose. You have not failed at anything. You are succeeding.

You are both in this together. Her win is yours. Your win is hers.

No other mother would find this easy.

I'll back off. I must have mis-perceived the situation. I am sorry.

 

[WiseChoices]

I don't know that I view it as my standard that compromise entails communicate. I think I am rather saying I don't know how or I am not clear what you are saying. Your next sentence makes it clearer for me : a compromise within me. Ok, so what are we saying : that I am ok with paraphernalia mailed to my house? Because I do not feel I am making my daughter submit to me . On the contrary. But we do have very few house rules that I would like to see followed. I am trying to understand what you are saying and what you are driving at, Copa. You have a lot of wisdom, and I would like to understand and make my situation better if at all possible. What is there for me to do/learn here? Was I wrong then as I am already assuming for confronting about the safe and the pipe? Are you saying that if my goal is for her to stay until she feels ready to move out , then I needed to compromise on that and keep my mouth shut? Let her live here more like a roommate rather than "under my roof"? I am desparate for answers.

I would like nothing more than my daughter's and my interests being the same, being on the same page. I have always felt I did that. I feel I have supported her in all of of her endeavours. And I would love to do it now. That's what I always envisioned would happen that she would move wherever her heart desired and I would help to get her set up - if she wanted my help. And I have also been honest and transparent with her that it fills me with ambivalence: that I will miss her so on one hand it scares me, and on the other, I am excited for her and I know she will be fine. Before she left for college I assured her I would be fine , that she would be free to enjoy college.

Are you saying that I am rigid and unbending and that is what is creating problems between my daughter and I? Because I am more than willing to learn and grow and get this right : for her.

Am I enforcing my house rules / my boundaries or controlling her life? That is exactly what I am trying to find out. Because I already feel I made a mistake, and overstepped and I am trying to get reassurance I did the right thing - or confirmation I screwed up . And I also have hubster to content with who wants her out, who is the one who noticed the safe and pointed it out to me.

I get so many conflicting views and am so confused. I so desperately want to do the right thing and to do what is best for her.

 

[WiseChoices]

Wise,

We learn in Al anon that we are "sick" from the disease. I say this with utmost respect and kindness but I hear in your questioning yourself the kind of "sickness" I still am trying to heal from and wonder if you might be experiencing a little bit of that too.

For me years of living with an alcoholic and the affects from it have forever changed me. I more often times than not, do not value myself, I second guess my decisions thinking that I'm not capable of making sound, wise decisions. I always worry I am offending someone else with little to no care or concern for myself. These are just a "sampling" of the way the disease has affected me.

I think you need to allow yourself the opportunity to make a mistake. If you misjudged your daughter with regards to the safe it doesn't make you abusive or unkind. You are simply working off years and years of experience and gut intuition from past experiences with your daughter in coming to these conclusions. Addicts often (I think unintentionally) are manipulative and can turn the situation around making us think "we've" got it all wrong. We walk away feeling guilty and unworthy. Yuk, I hate that!

We don't have to be perfect all the time. I think those are our own self-imposed guidelines from what we suffer with. We beat ourselves up if we do. You wouldn't tell a friend who made a mistake to keep punishing herself for a wrong decision. You'd love her, support her and strengthen her up. Why can't we do the same for ourselves?

So, do I owe an amend here? Did I overstep and get into business that was not mine? I reacted with a lot of fear towards the items that arrived and I just needed a solution. I needed that to go away. My anxiety already being high from Covid19, I hit a wall of fear , I felt unsafe, endangered.

 

[BusynMember1]

I go to All Anon. You know that. I also have a sponsor. I have learned a lot, including that my daughter was the one who deliberately sabatoged our relationship and that she is not looking to reconcile, except for getting what she wants from me on her terms. And she doesn't live with me, but this is the truth. It was ME who almost kissed her behind to make some sort of relationship between us. I would have done almost anything. But she made not one compromise nor loving gesture. I realize that I can not dance alone nor can I act as if I approve of how she lives. I have other kids and a husband who totally disapproves of her.

Now Kay is not your daughter and I am not you. So any advice I gave you would be based on my own experience with my daughter. I was not successful in saving our relationship. Sadly, there is little of that on this forum. My own conclusion about that is that no matter how hard we try, we can't make our grown kids like or respect us. At least I feel your daughter does love you, but from a distance as in "don't you tell me what to do."

While that feeling is age appropriate, she is still living with you and I believe you are still paying her bills. But... And here's the catch.....you don't want her to leave. To live with her in peace your only choice is to let her do what she wants...or else no peace. And she likely won't listen to you about pot and paraphernalia anyway. Is it fair? Of course not. Nothing is more accurate than reminding you that life isn't fair.

I wish I could tell you what to do and know that it is the right answer. The only person who can make that decision is you. I just pointed out a few things that I hope are your life facts. Here is one last sad fact. There is no way to force our grown kids to want to be close to us. Our parents couldn't force that on us and we can't force it on them. Some of us were close to our mothers and are puzzled when our kids opt out, especially girls. Some of us were not close to our own mothers and want better relationships than we had.

It is not our choice. Nor is it our faults if our kids choose distance. It just is. We have no control over anything but ourselves. The environment, the weather, coronavirus, our relationships....we can only control how WE handle things, not outcomes.

I feel really badly for you and I felt the pain you feel. We adopted Kay. When I heard it was a girl I danced for joy saying "Oh, a daughter! I'm so excited." I thought we would be BFF. Shopping for clothes, doing hair together, nails, talking, and sharing prom and her wedding.

None of that happened for us. It got more distant as she grew older. I can't change it. But I can still be happy.

I sure wish you all the luck in the world.

 

[WiseChoices]

I go to All Anon. You know that. I also have a sponsor. I have learned a lot, including that my daughter was the one who deliberately sabatoged our relationship and that she is not looking to reconcile, except for getting what she wants from me on her terms. And she doesn't live with me, but this is the truth. It was ME who almost kissed her behind to make some sort of relationship between us. I would have done almost anything. But she made not one compromise nor loving gesture. I realize that I can not dance alone nor can I act as if I approve of how she lives. I have other kids and a husband who totally disapproves of her.

Now Kay is not your daughter and I am not you. So any advice I gave you would be based on my own experience with my daughter. I was not successful in saving our relationship. Sadly, there is little of that on this forum. My own conclusion about that is that no matter how hard we try, we can't make our grown kids like or respect us. At least I feel your daughter does love you, but from a distance as in "don't you tell me what to do."

While that feeling is age appropriate, she is still living with you and I believe you are still paying her bills. But... And here's the catch.....you don't want her to leave. To live with her in peace your only choice is to let her do what she wants...or else no peace. And she likely won't listen to you about pot and paraphernalia anyway. Is it fair? Of course not. Nothing is more accurate than reminding you that life isn't fair.

I wish I could tell you what to do and know that it is the right answer. The only person who can make that decision is you. I just pointed out a few things that I hope are your life facts. Here is one last sad fact. There is no way to force our grown kids to want to be close to us. Our parents couldn't force that on us and we can't force it on them. Some of us were close to our mothers and are puzzled when our kids opt out, especially girls. Some of us were not close to our own mothers and want better relationships than we had.

It is not our choice. Nor is it our faults if our kids choose distance. It just is. We have no control over anything but ourselves. The environment, the weather, coronavirus, our relationships....we can only control how WE handle things, not outcomes.

I feel really badly for you and I felt the pain you feel. We adopted Kay. When I heard it was a girl I danced for joy saying "Oh, a daughter! I'm so excited." I thought we would be BFF. Shopping for clothes, doing hair together, nails, talking, and sharing prom and her wedding.

None of that happened for us. It got more distant as she grew older. I can't change it. But I can still be happy.

I sure wish you all the luck in the world.

Thank you so much for that, Busy. That helped a lot! I am powerless, I am in Step 1.

 

[Copabanana]

so what are we saying : that I am ok with paraphernalia mailed to my house?

No. Your limits are reasonable and not out of line.

In this situation I might see this as an option: If she needs drug related items, have them shipped to a friend, or to a post office box. And not bring them to the house.

But I don't think the solution is over one specific battle with her.

And the problem for me was, I did not want to support my son to use drugs. For me, to tell him use drugs out of my sight would have been wrong.

The thing is this: it may not even help, that you bend over backwards. Because she might take advantage of this, and then find another thing to buck you. She's like a moving target. There is a greater force at play: She may want to leave on one level and fear it. And therefore not take responsibility to choose to leave. She may need you to force her to leave. To be the bad guy. This seems to be her MO. To force you to decide things, to take action, so she can act like a martyr and feel to be the victim. And then she can feel justified to keep asserting herself negatively against you. Consistently, she makes you the bad guy.

What I am saying here is that she may want to leave, but be ambivalent, and she may be forcing you to eject her. She may be putting all of the responsibility on you, unfairly. And do this over and over again, no matter how you respond.

I'm suggesting you need to understand the dynamic, and decide what to do based upon the big picture.

If I'm right, she's unlikely to alter this dynamic. She will push, and push, covertly until you finally take a stand. Which is what you don't want.

This would be sad, for her and you.

That you want her home, may not be your decision, ultimately to make. If she keeps on with this. It may be out of your hands. We can't be doormats. That's not good for them, or for us.

There is a process going on here that is out of your control. While she's the driver she may not be in control, either, in the sense of consciously deciding.

But that doesn't mean that you can't consciously decide to take another course. To take the wind out of sails of this dynamic. What this would be is to decide yourself that it's time to make a deliberate, transparent, supportive plan for her to leave. And then if she resists this, be open to conversation with her. And ask her how you can support her. Be open about what hasn't worked, and how you see the situation. And see how this goes.

Was I wrong then as I am already assuming for confronting about the safe and the pipe?

No. You weren't wrong, at least I don't think so. That had to happen to arrive at this place where you are. This is a new choice point with more awareness. Greater potential for you to take responsibility.

You're you saying that if my goal is for her to stay until she feels ready to move out , then I needed to compromise on that and keep my mouth shut?

The horse is already out of the barn with the safe. Please don't beat yourself up. Knowing your daughter, there will be new opportunities now to act and decide.

This is what I think: I think she's ambivalent about moving out, just as you're ambivalent about her moving out.

Number one: you really don't have any control here about when she moves out, unless you decide to take unilateral action at some point, She may need to keep making you the bad guy. She may need to keep upping the ante. She may need to keep throwing things in your face. You may be forced to take a stand.

That's why I think you might be better off to take the bull by the horns and force the issue. You may be helping her to bring up her moving out, not as a consequence, but to support her.

Are you saying that I am rigid and unbending and that is what is creating problems between my daughter and I?

I think you're torn, as are most of the rest of us. I was in a similar situation with my son, where he kept violating rules and agreements, and forcing me to throw him out or call the police. For a long time I took it. Several times I made him homeless. And he's ill. Surely, I did not want this. Yet, I could not keep allowing him to use drugs in my property. I was you in that situation.

I don't think I was "rigid or unbending." And I don't think of you in that way either. I think civilized life always involves bottom lines. It has to.

Am I enforcing my house rules / my boundaries or controlling her life?

If you ask me, I think the answer is both things. And I don't think that's wrong. If she chooses to be in your house, she has to work with you. She won't do it happily. She experiences this as "controlling" her, because it is. If she did not live with you she could do what she wants, and not have this "control."

I think you're enforcing your realistic and reasonable boundaries. And you're also attempting to control behaviors of hers, that she wants to continue. I think she wants to continue those exact behaviors, because you don't like them, because they are contrary to what you want. I believe on some level she wants to be in conflict with you, and that there is some likelihood that no matter what you do, she will continue to do what she wants.

But at the same time, I believe that you need to take responsibility for a lot of this. Why? Because you want something here. And you want it very, very badly. What you want is not wrong. You want her to leave on good terms. You want her to leave when she is maximally able to sustain herself emotionally, psychologically, financially, socially. You want her to leave on good terms with you. There is huge incentive for you to work with her. But this is in conflict with your rules. You've got to decide which is more important to you. But I don't think anybody could or should have no rules at all.

I think you need to take responsibility for your part. If you want rules, there will be continued conflict. She may still act out. This is not good for her. It's not good for you.

Or you can become more lenient. You could fold but there's no guarantee it will work. Because she keeps upping the ante. Because on some level she knows she needs to leave and wants to leave. But she's conflicted. She's either unaware or she doesn't want to take responsibility.

But given that you want something very, very much, in my view you need to take responsibility for doing the lion's share to make this work. If it can work. And I believe you need to be realistic about the possibility of whether it can work. And to start to be prepared that she leave on terms that you may not want.

Or, like I said, decide it's better for her (and you on some level) that she leave. And help her.

You have been tremendously successful so far, at great cost. I think there needs to be on your part a re-evaluation of cost/benefit, to you and to her.

she wishes she could just hex me away.

This quote was so moving and so sad to me. This is such a loving and empathic understanding of your daughter and her psychological situation. She is feeling powerless. Over her head. Incapable of holding her own. And you understand that. You hate for her to feel, to be in this place.

I so very much relate to your daughter, identify with her, when she feels in this powerless place. I think you must, too.

I remember once when I was younger than your daughter, feeling such frustration, such a sense that there was no way out, that I stood in the hallway and banged my head against the wall. Sometimes, I still have a little bit of this feeling, from so many years ago. When M has an opinion about something that is different from mine, which he asserts, I feel that he wants to overpower me, and that I cannot hang onto what I want. I feel such tension inside me. Imagine that. I have had so much independence, and strength and power in my life with my views and decisions and achievements, and still in me there is this fragility, this fear that I can't hold onto myself.

Here is another quote that struck me. You are so aware of her pain and so empathetic to her:

I made her food and offered it when she got home and she said she was not hungry. She is so angry at me.

This is what I think: You are at a choice point now. You could decide that your overarching goal is not that rules are enforced, and not that she stay home, but that you will do whatever is in your power so that your daughter has the capacity and freedom to grow her real power. To me, real power is being able to tolerate and be conscious of one's own wants and needs, and to believe and act upon our lives in such a way that we can take care of ourselves, and act decisively.

Power as grown ups means we are no longer delimited by our parents beliefs, control and behavior, that we can be self-determining, autonomous, responsible and transparent, to act decisively with confidence and self respect and responsibility. To move forward, even if we are afraid.

Of course, these are my beliefs only and are not applicable to anybody else.

That is what I want for myself.

But this is not to say that your rules are not important. They are.

I think you know the right thing to do, and how to do it, each step of the way. The right thing for your daughter, is the right thing for you. That's what I think.

 

[Copabanana]

Let me clarify, please, something I am saying. I think you may want things that are not congruent, that may cancel each other out.

It may not be in your control that she stays home, until she wants to leave. Because she's of a divided mind. She wants to stay on her own terms. And she keeps forcing you to make her leave or to accept her rules. She is forcing you to be cowed and muzzled by her. I don't think you as a good mother, can live this way. You know you can't.

I believe if you want her to stay, you are the one who has to take responsibility for that. And to alter your expectations of her. Because she has proven to you consistently, she will not alter her behaviors. But the thing is, you have been consistent that you're unwilling to alter your behaviors. What's going to give here? If she won't do it, you will have to. But I am not saying that you should. I'm just saying that something's got to give. Either you give in with your expectations, and change, or change what it is you want. You can't want inconsistent things, without a lot of suffering.

And most importantly, you can't stand how miserable she is. You can't stand that she takes her misery out on you. And you can't stand that she suffers either. You can't change her. You can't give her superpowers. The only way that she will change and grow up and find her power, in my view, is the same way that I did.

I had to leave. I had to face the world on my own. And I had to separate from my mother.

Oh. I have worlds and worlds of regrets. But there is no magic here. Reality cannot be wished away, in my experience.

I want to underscore again here, that I do not think your rules are unreasonable. But they may be incompatible with the reality of the situation.

 

[Copabanana]

Almost 2 years ago, my son was homeless, in a large metro near me. Maybe it wasn't so long ago, my mind is fuzzy. I would post about what to do. I was in agony.

I could not figure out what to do. I could not tolerate the marijuana. I believed the marijuana was the underlying cause of a whole host of other problems for my son.

Several mothers here on the board, including very experienced, even hard ones, urged me to give up on conditions and rules, including the marijuana. They knew how distraught and worried I was. They believed that doing the right thing for me, was key. That I needed to take care of myself, and that my son's improvement (or not) was his responsibility, and he would improve on his own timetable, not mine. Their argument was to remove all bones of contention, cleanliness, productivity, etc. and to keep my distance.

The only condition they believed was legitimate was that he get medical treatment for his Hep B and take his antivirals. But even that they asserted was beyond my control.

I don't remember that you were here posting at that point.

One way or another my son arrived back to the home I own. (There have been so many returns, I can't remember any single one. They all blend into one horror show.)

The thing is I couldn't do it. I could not NOT have a bottom line. I came to believe that we are responsible to set bottom lines even for adult children when their behavior affects us, and/or is in space we control.

I could not control the marijuana, but I could control whether I gave money, food, or support. When I stopped giving money, food and support, he left for the sober living home.

I am bracing myself because he has left there to go to the metro. He says he is going back tomorrow but I'm not holding my breath. I feel certain he's using, and why would the sober living home take him back?

The whole thing about relaxing conditions, I was unable to do. And I wanted my son safe and protected at least as much as you want to harbor your daughter.

But I do think there is some wiggle room for you if you choose that course. The room to relax standards if you choose.

Your daughter is doing so well. Really. It may be worth it, to keep trying.

 

[WiseChoices]

All those last posts resonated very deeply with me. Thank you, Copa, and everyone else who has taken the time to help me.

I think my ambivalence about her being on her own stems from her trying to live at school which was a disaster. She was very depressed , non functioning, missing tons of classes because she could not get out of bed. Any suggestion I made (go for a walk etc) she did not want to do. While I was away on vacation, I had to make her get a shower ,get some food, and get tucked back into bed. She has not functioned well when alone. We brought her home many times during the semester for respite at home. It seems she either was depressed in her room or when she had friends she would be out a whole lot. But, at school, she did not have a car or a job, so hopefully things are different now.

She says she hates it here but keeps returning. She would like to live out her rebellion right here in the safety of our home,I think, like a teenager, and the problem is that her rebellion does not work for us as parents. The process has already been prolonged due to her mental health issues and it's too much for everyone involved, her and us as well.

We want to support, we want to give her the safe place to stay, the home base she clearly wants or she would have saved money and left already, but the rebellion we can't accept for someone her age. We pull the "you are an adult card" and expect her to comply with our rules. As we should.

There is a part of me always that wants to trust my children. That wants to go back and say nothing about her getting a safe ,who doesn't look at the company label of the pipe package and looks online to see what they sell. That lets it be, because I know I have good kids. Someone who chalks it up to experimentation unless there is clear evidence of a problem. But I get scared. I have parented with fear, lots and lots of fear. I get so scared when husband shows me she ordered a safe when he brings in the mail. Even he said in the beginning of this to just wait and see. And I infected him with my fear. Forced a solution. I wanted to nip it in the bud. I wanted the fear to go away and made it worse because I still have adrenaline surging through me days later and am not functioning. I am afraid to go into my house out of my bedroom while she is home. I am afraid of her talking to me and afraid of her not talking to me. I cannot stand conflict and want so smoothe this out so badly. But that's the same kind of quick fix as creating a crisis was.

When she lied to me a few weeks ago, I wanted her gone. It's my knee jerk response to dealing with problems. It's an empty threat on my part, because I don't really want her out of the house. I want to live in harmony and don't know how because I seem to be the only one trying consistently. I work hard at remaining loving sesp

She does not really want to participate in family life or contribute to the household. She wouldn't clean her room at the first of the month when we asked both young adults to do basic chores in their rooms. I had the same battle with my son and we finally, him and I, came to the resolution that I clean his room and do his laundry for pay. He pays me in addition to rent a monthly fee for me to be his housekeeper. We are both ok with this arrangement. It has greatly eliminated any friction between us. I offered the same deal to my daughter and she declined.

I am just rambling here trying to figure out where I stand, what I am feeling, and what to do and the answer is probably nothing. Surrendering to my HP , staying in Step 1, letting prayer bring a miracle, a solution when the time is right.

 

[WiseChoices]

Copa, when I read your response to my quote of daughter wishing she could just hex me away, I cried again.

It is such a sad place to be for her and for me. A Mother larger than life (to her) that has seen her through rough, rough times of years of eating disorders and depression, who tends to take over, who overruns her at times, who knows her and loves her to the point that it all feels too much at times.

When she was in the throes of deep depression at age 16, I would hold her and tell her I would hold her long enough to "thaw her out". She was in such despair and I did not know how to help her other than be there and hold space for her.

She has dipped her toes in the water by announcing several times she would move out usually in response to us enforcing rules in a way she did not like. Or when she somehow had fashioned me into her enemy after my trip to Germany because I would not broker between her Dad and her while he was the attending "parent" in the home and because I accused her of not caring about me or her Grandparents when she repeatedly sent messages only with requests and did not respond to photos etc I had sent to her. I see now how childish I was , sensitive and already so hurt over other things that had gone down between us. And then I sent an article about micronutrients for depression and she knew it was an underlying statement of me not accepting her choice to be on medication. And rebuffed me hard. And I lashed back.

She had picked out a cute place and asked me to make a budget which we did and she saw she could afford it. And then did not move forward. Asked to stay longer.

She is ambivalent and scared and that is normal and understandable. And so she probably does need the push out of the nest. But I would like it to be with love , in support of her needs and wants, not as a punishment. When I see her feeling scared but ready to move through her fear, I am ready, too.