5 reasons to stop saying ' Good Job ' - Alfie Kohn
- Thread starter Allan-Matlem
- Start date
helpmehelphim
New Member
Andrea, you know what? We used that same plan but called it "caught being nice". And if someone in the family was caught doing a nice thing for someone else (or themselves...we had big issues with- one child calling himself stupid) then points were given/earned. It takes a lot to keep up with that....so I feel ya! It did some good things though...it really put the focus on doing nice things. The only problem I encountered was that my boys got competitive about points..."how many do you have" or "you have more than me". Other than that it worked until it didn't anymore...if you know what I mean. I don't remember your kids ages....mine were about 8 yrs. old or maybe 9.
I understand what you are saying about Greene too and the collaboration. It does feel really good when we do it. Or maybe for me it feels worse than it used to, when I don't do it? I don't know... Things are much calmer when I use the approach (yesterday and today, hopefully tomorrow?). Ok, gotta go. My toddler is here letting me know that it's time to read Thomas the Train. :smile:
I understand what you are saying about Greene too and the collaboration. It does feel really good when we do it. Or maybe for me it feels worse than it used to, when I don't do it? I don't know... Things are much calmer when I use the approach (yesterday and today, hopefully tomorrow?). Ok, gotta go. My toddler is here letting me know that it's time to read Thomas the Train. :smile:
Andrea Danielle
New Member
:rofl:
That's funny. I might have made things sound better than they are... Believe me, I am normally working hard on not strangling them too but they remind me when I forget to award Brother Points, it is easy to keep on top of this. And, SRL, the hugs are really intended just to get points, in fact, I had to put a limit on one hug/kiss point a day otherwise they were just hugging constantly to get an easy points :smile: I have paid easy child Senior to be nice too, it does work!
We all do what we can to survive, and when I find something that works it is so exciting!!!
Andrea
That's funny. I might have made things sound better than they are... Believe me, I am normally working hard on not strangling them too but they remind me when I forget to award Brother Points, it is easy to keep on top of this. And, SRL, the hugs are really intended just to get points, in fact, I had to put a limit on one hug/kiss point a day otherwise they were just hugging constantly to get an easy points :smile: I have paid easy child Senior to be nice too, it does work!
We all do what we can to survive, and when I find something that works it is so exciting!!!
Andrea
Marguerite
Active Member
Terry, on the subject of "little lawyers" - we have found that Ross Greene's methods in general do work for us and have, in fact, been far less work than anything else we've done.
I'm glad we're not the only ones with a budding lawyer. I don't know how it is for you guys, but with us it's mostly anxiety-based. He HAS to know, in detail, exactly what the boundaries are. And if he really wants something he will keep on going about it, I think because he's anxious that he may miss out. For example, we introduced a system of "Family Shop" where if we were out shopping and we saw something we knew the kids wanted but they didn't have the money, we would buy it for them on condition that their first priority was to buy whatever-it-was from the "Family Shop". We would only hold one item per child except in exceptional circumstances (such as really cheap price in sales, or a product permanently going off-range). But simply knowing that the desired item was no longer in the store at risk of being purchased by some stranger did reduce the anxiety to the point that they were secure in EVENTUALLY possessing it. Of course, difficult child 3 still will nag to be given ways to earn money, or if we're out will try to justify "exceptional circumstances" (that's where the future law degree comes in) but I also have to sometimes just put my foot down and say, "I'm not talking about it any more - we have now discussed everything we could discuss and we're just repeating ourselves here. How many different ways do you want to hear me say 'no'?"
When he says, "I hate it when you keep saying, 'no'," I point out, "If you didn't ask the question you know I don't want to hear, you wouldn't hear the answer that YOU don't want to hear."
But still, when I analyse it I can see that it's anxiety that is prompting the nagging. So we try to work on the anxiety, rather than the acquisition of material things.
What I get from Ross Greene is the policy of mutual respect, treating others as we want to be treated, and of dealing with the root cause where possible. Given these broad overviews, we no longer fuss about charts, organised reward systems on a grand scale and we don't go near punishment. We have 'logical consequences' which is what any person in society has to endure. Example: If we are rude to the greengrocer, we can't expect him to give us a discount on a box of mangoes. But if we are polite, friendly and helpful to the greengrocer, we are more likely to get service with a smile and we increase our chance of something more, within his power to grant it. It could be a discount, it could be him pointing out that there is a special deal on grapes today, it could be him putting aside some of our favourites so we don't miss out. But we don't expect rewards for being nice - it is what other people choose to give us. But we DO recognise that if we are not nice to other people, we cannot expect anything.
If something nice does happen and I can see that it has come about because of something good we did, I point out the connection to difficult child 3. I might get difficult child 3 to do some work on his grandma's garden. difficult child 3 often expects to be given money for jobs like this, but I can't tell grandma what to do. Also, he should be doing kind things for grandma purely because he loves her and wants her to be happy. But grandma MAY choose to give him a few dollars. Or she may choose to give him a glass of lemonade and a home-made biscuit. He has had to learn to not have expectations when he does something kind, because we should always try to be kind to one another, but to accept any subsequent generosity with grace and as an acknowledgement that other people appreciate kindness.
To get to that stage we had to go through the process of organised bribery. All through difficult child 3's life, it's always been bribery that worked as the initial impetus. Toilet training - nothing worked, until we stuck a box of M & Ms above the toilet. They were there, waiting for him to 'produce' on cue. Now, of course, we no longer need to bribe him to go to the toilet. He now has no expectations of material gain as the result of going to the toilet.
And so it is with other skills he slowly acquires. We use nefarious methods to begin with; the sort that horrify educators especially, but we slowly move towards the action bringing its own reward. And here is where Ross Greene has helped the most. difficult child 3 now realises that HIS actions control what is going to happen. And for kids like him, they NEED control like everybody needs air. Parents are taught that PARENTAL control is everything, when it's not. We think that giving control to our kids, especially if they're difficult child and extremely immature, is a disaster. But if we give the kids the control that they can handle and then teach them and support them in learning to handle it, we end up with kids who learn FASTER than most how to be self-reliant.
Too much parenting is caught up in, well, parenting - being in control. But the end goal is relinquishing that control when our kids grow up and move away.
I used to help my sister raise her kids. She always had to be in control and lived by the then current version of Dr Spock. At that time the thinking was to NOT give small children any choice, because choice only confuses them, they have no idea how to make decisions until they're about 6 years old. So at lunchtime she would make them all whatever sandwich she felt they should have.
But she had a difficult child in the midst. He INSISTED on only eating Vegemite sandwiches. He was very determined and would not eat anything else. He turned up his nose at peanut butter sandwiches. No tomato sandwiches. No salad. No meatballs. No sausages. He was three years old and not eating a balanced diet. He was also asserting his choice (and his ability to insist on his choice) at an age when, according to my sister's books on parenting, this is not supposed to be possible.
My sister tried aversion therapy. She gave her difficult child nothing but Vegemite sandwiches and water. She had a wide range of food available - a big plate of salad sandwiches and another big plate of sausages and meatballs for the other kids. Big jugs of cordial (sweet drink) for the other kids. Ice cream for dessert. But all difficult child was being given was Vegemite sandwiches. She wanted him to get sick of them and BEG for some variety.
It backfired. After two weeks she gave up and sat him at the table to make him eat a salad. She switched the rules around - "You have to eat some salad and meatballs first, and then you can have a Vegemite sandwich."
He's 45 now and still prefers Vegemite sandwiches.
If you give your kids some control, under supervision, you stop being their obstacle and become their support. if you continue to insist on keeping the control, one day (sooner than you think) you will find yourself, like my sister, in a battle you have no hope of winning. And to lose a battle - that's disastrous. Much better to not even LOOK like there is a battle looming, and use diplomacy instead. Fewer casualties that way.
The only problem with this - THEY learn diplomacy too, and try to use it on you. We call it 'nagging'. And that's where the "little lawyer" syndrome comes in.
So I engage to a certain point, and then say, "Enough!" We have used up the amount of energy allotted to discuss the issue. I still prefer the lawyer to the tantrums, and I know that as he gets older and more capable, he will argue with a better understanding of social rules of communication. At least, in his arguing and nagging, he is learning more effective communication. And considering he took several years to even understand that he and I both had names, I'm delighted with his progress.
Something we're doing has been working for us. It's a break in the rules in many cases, but for us it works.
I know it doesn't work this way for everybody. But then, your child is not my child. The thing is, we try things and use what DOES work because at grass roots, that's an important facet of parenting - listening to your child and adapting what you do to fit the need.
About the haircut - that was my niece. She had a crewcut for months. And the permanent marker make-up? easy child 2/difficult child 2. I took a few photos but the film lab lost the film - I was so angry. I had bought a pack of multi-coloured permanent markers for a charity event (so I know which film it was all on - the charity parade was also on the lost film). easy child 2/difficult child 2 coloured in her cheeks with big pink circles; she coloured her eyelids in royal blue, right up to the eyebrows; she drew on black eyelashes (upper and lower) like a doll and coloured her lips in with bright red. The black eyelashes took over a week to wear off, the rest of it was mostly gone after about three days. Scrubbing made no difference; make-up remover didn't touch the black and didn't remove much of the other stuff. What a sight! Fortunately, it was before she started school. She attended Long Day Care though, and had to explain herself to them.
For a smart kid she can do some really dumb things sometimes. But at least she does it in an innovative way!
Marg
I'm glad we're not the only ones with a budding lawyer. I don't know how it is for you guys, but with us it's mostly anxiety-based. He HAS to know, in detail, exactly what the boundaries are. And if he really wants something he will keep on going about it, I think because he's anxious that he may miss out. For example, we introduced a system of "Family Shop" where if we were out shopping and we saw something we knew the kids wanted but they didn't have the money, we would buy it for them on condition that their first priority was to buy whatever-it-was from the "Family Shop". We would only hold one item per child except in exceptional circumstances (such as really cheap price in sales, or a product permanently going off-range). But simply knowing that the desired item was no longer in the store at risk of being purchased by some stranger did reduce the anxiety to the point that they were secure in EVENTUALLY possessing it. Of course, difficult child 3 still will nag to be given ways to earn money, or if we're out will try to justify "exceptional circumstances" (that's where the future law degree comes in) but I also have to sometimes just put my foot down and say, "I'm not talking about it any more - we have now discussed everything we could discuss and we're just repeating ourselves here. How many different ways do you want to hear me say 'no'?"
When he says, "I hate it when you keep saying, 'no'," I point out, "If you didn't ask the question you know I don't want to hear, you wouldn't hear the answer that YOU don't want to hear."
But still, when I analyse it I can see that it's anxiety that is prompting the nagging. So we try to work on the anxiety, rather than the acquisition of material things.
What I get from Ross Greene is the policy of mutual respect, treating others as we want to be treated, and of dealing with the root cause where possible. Given these broad overviews, we no longer fuss about charts, organised reward systems on a grand scale and we don't go near punishment. We have 'logical consequences' which is what any person in society has to endure. Example: If we are rude to the greengrocer, we can't expect him to give us a discount on a box of mangoes. But if we are polite, friendly and helpful to the greengrocer, we are more likely to get service with a smile and we increase our chance of something more, within his power to grant it. It could be a discount, it could be him pointing out that there is a special deal on grapes today, it could be him putting aside some of our favourites so we don't miss out. But we don't expect rewards for being nice - it is what other people choose to give us. But we DO recognise that if we are not nice to other people, we cannot expect anything.
If something nice does happen and I can see that it has come about because of something good we did, I point out the connection to difficult child 3. I might get difficult child 3 to do some work on his grandma's garden. difficult child 3 often expects to be given money for jobs like this, but I can't tell grandma what to do. Also, he should be doing kind things for grandma purely because he loves her and wants her to be happy. But grandma MAY choose to give him a few dollars. Or she may choose to give him a glass of lemonade and a home-made biscuit. He has had to learn to not have expectations when he does something kind, because we should always try to be kind to one another, but to accept any subsequent generosity with grace and as an acknowledgement that other people appreciate kindness.
To get to that stage we had to go through the process of organised bribery. All through difficult child 3's life, it's always been bribery that worked as the initial impetus. Toilet training - nothing worked, until we stuck a box of M & Ms above the toilet. They were there, waiting for him to 'produce' on cue. Now, of course, we no longer need to bribe him to go to the toilet. He now has no expectations of material gain as the result of going to the toilet.
And so it is with other skills he slowly acquires. We use nefarious methods to begin with; the sort that horrify educators especially, but we slowly move towards the action bringing its own reward. And here is where Ross Greene has helped the most. difficult child 3 now realises that HIS actions control what is going to happen. And for kids like him, they NEED control like everybody needs air. Parents are taught that PARENTAL control is everything, when it's not. We think that giving control to our kids, especially if they're difficult child and extremely immature, is a disaster. But if we give the kids the control that they can handle and then teach them and support them in learning to handle it, we end up with kids who learn FASTER than most how to be self-reliant.
Too much parenting is caught up in, well, parenting - being in control. But the end goal is relinquishing that control when our kids grow up and move away.
I used to help my sister raise her kids. She always had to be in control and lived by the then current version of Dr Spock. At that time the thinking was to NOT give small children any choice, because choice only confuses them, they have no idea how to make decisions until they're about 6 years old. So at lunchtime she would make them all whatever sandwich she felt they should have.
But she had a difficult child in the midst. He INSISTED on only eating Vegemite sandwiches. He was very determined and would not eat anything else. He turned up his nose at peanut butter sandwiches. No tomato sandwiches. No salad. No meatballs. No sausages. He was three years old and not eating a balanced diet. He was also asserting his choice (and his ability to insist on his choice) at an age when, according to my sister's books on parenting, this is not supposed to be possible.
My sister tried aversion therapy. She gave her difficult child nothing but Vegemite sandwiches and water. She had a wide range of food available - a big plate of salad sandwiches and another big plate of sausages and meatballs for the other kids. Big jugs of cordial (sweet drink) for the other kids. Ice cream for dessert. But all difficult child was being given was Vegemite sandwiches. She wanted him to get sick of them and BEG for some variety.
It backfired. After two weeks she gave up and sat him at the table to make him eat a salad. She switched the rules around - "You have to eat some salad and meatballs first, and then you can have a Vegemite sandwich."
He's 45 now and still prefers Vegemite sandwiches.
If you give your kids some control, under supervision, you stop being their obstacle and become their support. if you continue to insist on keeping the control, one day (sooner than you think) you will find yourself, like my sister, in a battle you have no hope of winning. And to lose a battle - that's disastrous. Much better to not even LOOK like there is a battle looming, and use diplomacy instead. Fewer casualties that way.
The only problem with this - THEY learn diplomacy too, and try to use it on you. We call it 'nagging'. And that's where the "little lawyer" syndrome comes in.
So I engage to a certain point, and then say, "Enough!" We have used up the amount of energy allotted to discuss the issue. I still prefer the lawyer to the tantrums, and I know that as he gets older and more capable, he will argue with a better understanding of social rules of communication. At least, in his arguing and nagging, he is learning more effective communication. And considering he took several years to even understand that he and I both had names, I'm delighted with his progress.
Something we're doing has been working for us. It's a break in the rules in many cases, but for us it works.
I know it doesn't work this way for everybody. But then, your child is not my child. The thing is, we try things and use what DOES work because at grass roots, that's an important facet of parenting - listening to your child and adapting what you do to fit the need.
About the haircut - that was my niece. She had a crewcut for months. And the permanent marker make-up? easy child 2/difficult child 2. I took a few photos but the film lab lost the film - I was so angry. I had bought a pack of multi-coloured permanent markers for a charity event (so I know which film it was all on - the charity parade was also on the lost film). easy child 2/difficult child 2 coloured in her cheeks with big pink circles; she coloured her eyelids in royal blue, right up to the eyebrows; she drew on black eyelashes (upper and lower) like a doll and coloured her lips in with bright red. The black eyelashes took over a week to wear off, the rest of it was mostly gone after about three days. Scrubbing made no difference; make-up remover didn't touch the black and didn't remove much of the other stuff. What a sight! Fortunately, it was before she started school. She attended Long Day Care though, and had to explain herself to them.
For a smart kid she can do some really dumb things sometimes. But at least she does it in an innovative way!
Marg
givnmegryhr
New Member
So far everything we have tried is shortlived. I do agree that rewarding constantly creates a child that wants something to do anything. I always get the "Do I get paid for it?" and I always answer "No, do I?" I will however give verbal praise when do. I think everyone including all of us like being told good job. Who doesnt like recognition? I know I have heard several times how men thrive on praise and even seek it out! How often has your husbands said , " I washed the dishes "or listed all of the things they did that day. Of course most of the time I think ,or even say"Do you want I should throw a party?" LOL . You get my point.
Marguerite
Active Member
I think it's how we are made. I do know that we have had to resort to bribery and corruption at least to begin with. As time goes on, we can begin to phase it out. The trouble is with Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD), they get into bad habits so darned quick!
Marg
Marg
TerryJ2
Well-Known Member
GREAT feedback, Marg. Thank you!
I really should put this into perspective, now that you mention it... my difficult child "only" melts down once a wk, as compared to every day, and the lawyer arguments are head and shoulders about the ear-piercing shrieks I used to get.
LOVE the story about the Vegemite sandwiches!!! It's precious...
So sorry the pharm lost the film of the makeup face. That would have been great. But you paint a great word picture.
Givnmegryhr, LOL about men neededing praise--been there done that! LOL!
I really should put this into perspective, now that you mention it... my difficult child "only" melts down once a wk, as compared to every day, and the lawyer arguments are head and shoulders about the ear-piercing shrieks I used to get.
LOVE the story about the Vegemite sandwiches!!! It's precious...
So sorry the pharm lost the film of the makeup face. That would have been great. But you paint a great word picture.
Givnmegryhr, LOL about men neededing praise--been there done that! LOL!
