A tough question to answer ...

[Copabanana]

I’d like to say this. But with mine, I’m not entirely sure I can blame everything on drugs and alcohol. I often think the drugs and drinking are as much symptom as cause. The mental health issues, the anger management issues, the impulse control issues, are underlying everything.

This is painful for me to read.

I hang onto the hope that if my son were to get sober he would change. I understand that he uses marijuana to self-medicate, but I hang onto the idea that this is like banging your head with a hammer in order to cure a headache. That the remedies he chooses are doing him in. And that if he could dig himself out of the dependency he could find other ways to deal with his distress. But I recognize all of this is having an opinion about his life, which I have no right to do in any activist sense.

But I can't take the way he lives. I can't take how it is to interact with him when he is too close into my life.

The bottom line is I cannot take it. And I don't have to let him live in any property I own.

Where I break down here is when I start thinking of my son as a primarily mentally ill person, I feel I am obligated to do more, and to do it forever. Even though I know this is not the case. I start feeling that if I done something different, maybe there could have been a different result. I start feeling some peace of this, a giant peace of this, is my fault, my responsibility.

 

[Elsi]

Oh I don’t mean to say it doesn’t apply or is a bad approach. I just mean with mine ... it’s complicated. And getting sober by itself isn’t a guarantee that everything will be better.

I can speak to my own unipolar depression. I am always on guard against that depressive thinking. I have to be though the risk is low now thankfully. But there have been times in my life when it took over. My normal optimism disappeared. I was not another person but the depressive thoughts were in control of my actions. Recognizing the warning signs and clutching onto the moments of reality to get help were lessons I had to learn. So I do have more than avg sympathy for the mentally ill person who can't control their thoughts.

I totally get this. I struggle with depression as well, and I know what it feels like to slide into those dark thoughts. When everything seems pointless and hopeless. Or with anxiety and it seems like everyone and everything if out to get you. I have complete and total sympathy for mental illness. Its just hard to deal with it, your own or anyone else’s, untreated. It’s the refusal to get treatment and try to get better that frustrates me so.

 

[Elsi]

I hang onto the hope that if my son were to get sober he would change.

And he may! N did. There is always hope. I think it comes down to how deep are the underlying issues, and did they start before or after the drugs? C and S were both troubled little kids. They’ve struggled since day 1, as far as I can tell. But for a lot of people, the drugs or the alcohol ARE the primary problem.

Where I break down here is when I start thinking of my son as a primarily mentally ill person, I feel I am obligated to do more, and to do it forever. Even though I know this is not the case. I start feeling that if I done something different, maybe there could have been a different result. I start feeling some peace of this, a giant peace of this, is my fault, my responsibility.

This is where I struggle too. Because if they are mentally ill, it’s not their ‘fault’ and it may be entirely out of their control. So where does that leave our responsibility? I struggle, too. But i think it comes down to them wanting to get better, and being willing to work towards it. If they won’t do that, I do t think there is much we can do. We can’t do it for them.

 

[Smithmom]

Agreed. They need to do it. We can't. Mine won't admit he has a problem. So I try to tell him he does and that its about drugs. This the i love you but don't love who you are on drugs.

 

[Copabanana]

They are like a drowning person who will grab on to someone else and push them under in a desperate attempt to get air.

Yes.

I start feeling some peace of this, a giant peace of this, is my fault, my responsibility.

I must be agitated. I do know how to spell piece.

Because if they are mentally ill, it’s not their ‘fault’ and it may be entirely out of their control. So where does that leave our responsibility?

SWOT would say the illness does not preclude their responsibility. And when you think about it, it is patronizing and enabling to try to protect somebody from their lives. These adults in our lives are not incapable of choosing better for themselves. To insulate them by our over-protectiveness and fear is to deprive them of their right to choose and to define their lives.

In my own case my son is eligible for services that he does not access IF I HELP HIM.

But i think it comes down to them wanting to get better, and being willing to work towards it.

I think the key is the latter part of this sentence. The Work.

My son WANTS to feel better. He does not have the vision of being better. Which is partly a manifestation of his illness, and partly circular, in that if he had a vision of improving his life in a doable way, he would have to do it.
Work towards it.

Even getting his drivers license back, my son will not do. It is like somebody shot him with a stun gun. He will not move to improve his life.

But it is not that he has been rendered paralyzed by some outside agent. It is that he feels paralyzed. Or maybe the better word is numb. He has sought out numbness, as his preferred lifestyle.

Now he is homeless. There is no safe place. There is no hope of comfort to rescue him from that place. He is left with himself. He will have to do something. Either dig himself deeper or dig himself out. I do not see how he keeps going as he is.

He has always insisted he would not do hard drugs or IV drugs. That has always been his bottom line. Every time he is homeless he comes back with worse habits. But his insistence that there was a line beyond which he would not let himself fall, has given me a bit of reassurance. That if he had the ego strength to maintain this line, there was hope.

One day at a time.

 

[Elsi]

Copa, you and I have been round the same merry go round. It just keeps coming back to the same place - the realty that THEY have to take the steps and do the work. They seem incapable, but they’re not.

SWOT would say the illness does not preclude their responsibility. And when you think about it, it is patronizing and enabling to try to protect somebody from their lives. These adults in our lives are not incapable of choosing better for themselves. To insulate them by our over-protectiveness and fear is to deprive them of their right to choose and to define their lives.

Yep. I think you’ve got this right.

My son WANTS to feel better. He does not have the vision of being better. Which is partly a manifestation of his illness, and partly circular, in that if he had a vision of improving his life in a doable way, he would have to do it.
Work towards it.

I think this is very insightful. If you tell yourself there is no way out you don’t have to do the work of looking for it. It’s like they are in a room insisting they are trapped. And we are saying look, there is a door. Here is another door. They are unlocked. There is even a window if you dont like doors. Or you can even use this tool to cut a brand new door - here, take it. And they are sitting on the floor repeating there is no way out, there’s Always a reason none of the windows or doors would work for them. Maybe for someone else, but not for them. They want us to enter the room and carry them out. But even if we do that - they end up back in the same room, or another just like it.

But who knows what the future will bring. Perhaps in time they will be ready to get up off the floor and do the work of turning a door knob.

 

[BusynMember]

Depression feels like a black void. I would describe it that way back when it tormented me. Torment is not an exaggeration. I felt like a ginea pig with medications. Why did I try and some dont? I can tell you that one dangerous symptom of depression is that you think you will never get any better.

I know this sounds weird but having no family support, nobody who took my mental illness as a serious problem (altgough they had it too) made me have to be strong for myself. I think it helped me push. And I had to be my own best advocate. Or i had to kill myself which I thought about but it was never really on the table. I didnt threaten, didnt try, didnt cut myself, didnt hurt myself by starving myself and would not use any substances. That may be the biggest thing. I did not want to make things worse.; I kept going for help even when I didnt think the help would help. I was married but my ex was no support at all. It was me, myself and I. I know it sounds contrary to logic but for me no support really helped. And depression is not psychosis. You are capable of knowing how to try even when you feel hopeless. You can do it. Many with depression get better. Since a few decades ago depression has left my life and anxiety is less a factor. I never quit therapy. I learned many skills. I learned through CBT what my thinking errors were and it helped! I take my medications with no shame. I am diligent. I dont want to go back to that abyss.

If you feel TOO sorry for an adult who is depressed and anxious and believe in your heart that they cant do better, often they will agree I think, and they WONT do better. They know they have someone else suffering too and perhaps are less apt to try. This is especially true if we exaggerate depression and anxiety which do not cause psychosis and are both highly treatable. And we step in too much. They CAN get better! They CAN!

But if your loved one compounds it with drug use, the drug use is the biggest wall to feeling better. And not everyone who is mentally ill uses drugs to cope, if you call that coping.

This is Jmo and all are different. We in my opinion need to let them get well, stop the pity and remember that very sad people may say things they dont mean. Dont take the blame personally. But dont accept it either. Clinical depression, which can happen to even somebody with a stellar upbringing, runs hard and fast in the DNA. It is genetic. It isnt caused by parenting problems. You are all good parents.

And never believe a depressed adult cant do better. So many do, even if they suffered early abuse like me. Pity for anyone implies the belief that you dont believe they can. Some disabled adults need outside supports, like my son, but they can be happy. My son with autism is happy. He uses supports little these days. But the help is there and he uses it. Those who wont use it are making a decision. We cant live forever but they think parents will always br there to be the supports. The rides. The reminders. The money. The shelter. They dont think we will ever die. Not really. Maybe that is when they finally reach out for community support.

A disabled adult can get that support from the community. Eventually the community will be all there is.

Most kids here are not disabled, just addicts. They will be more easy to help with mental illness after they quit And that cant be forced. But many here have quit

This is all just my own opinion and experience. Take what resonates with any advice from anyone and leave the rest.

Love and light!

 

[Copabanana]

But it is not that he has been rendered paralyzed by some outside agent. It is that he feels paralyzed. Or maybe the better word is numb. He has sought out numbness, as his preferred lifestyle.

I am not quoting myself. I am realizing this is incomplete. I will be back later. Have to get dressed to leave the house.

The dope is to self-medicate. To stay in the immobilized state, but rendering it "feeling good."

My son had aspirations. He had things he loved. He had big wants. And then he saw that wanting things led not to the desired "feel good" state, but to disappointment, to pain, to blocks. And it was those he chose not to face. That was when he chose to define himself by the circumstances of his birth and his birth parents. And any discomfiture he felt, he pointed to those circumstances, as defining and limiting him. And somehow for some reason, he chose to deny his strengths, capacities, advantages. (I will say this felt horrible to me.)

I do not deny that those circumstances are real. I do not deny that there are ways he is constrained, his life is constrained. That is the human condition. I do not deny that people live their lives without challenging those constraints. I do not deny that I have no control over if and how he decides to challenge or to not challenge those constraints.

What I know is that THIS IS NOT HOW I HAVE CHOSEN TO LIVE. I have had long periods immobilized, but I choose incrementally as I am able to try to break free.

I, like SWOT, had no help. And because of that I had to do for myself. And I did. Many do not. That is life.

It really comes down to will I tolerate my son facing his life.

And will I tolerate his wanting to distance himself from me, if I do not fulfill a helping, instrumental role in fulfilling what he perceives are his needs.

This is the challenge that life is now putting in front of me.

The important thing to remember here, for me, is that my son is not me. And I am not my son. I need to be front and center that I do not have an activist role in the life of another adult. And this is the challenge of my life now. The challenge to sit quiet in my own life, and let him live his own and wait.

 

[Elsi]

SWOT and Copa, so much resonates for me in both of your posts.

Depression feels like a black void. I would describe it that way back when it tormented me. Torment is not an exaggeration. I felt like a ginea pig with medications. Why did I try and some dont? I can tell you that one dangerous symptom of depression is that you think you will never get any better.

Yes. I have been here, too. Like you, I’ve learned through therapy and trial and error what I need to do to stop the spiral when it starts, most of the time. I never found a medication that worked for me - they all seemed to push me into mania or ramp up anxiety or other symptoms. CBT has been the most helpful thing, and something I would love to see my children try. It’s been a lot of work, but most of the time I can avoid staying in the abyss. Of course, having a supportive loving partner and a calm, peaceful home make all the difference in the world too. A big part of what I’ve learned is how to organize my life to avoid triggers. Eat well. Get plenty of sleep. Exercise. Stay on a predictable schedule. And when all else fails and the demons come anyway, work on my CBT. I actually have been trying a couple CBT apps.

I know this sounds weird but having no family support, nobody who took my mental illness as a serious problem (altgough they had it too) made me have to be strong for myself. I think it helped me push. And I had to be my own best advocate.

Me as well. SWOT, I totally relate to this. My family of origin wasn’t abusive so much as just profoundly oblivious. We were a classic mid western stoic stiff upper lip family. Don’t complain. Keep your head down. Dont stand out. Do your duty. If something bad happens it was probably your fault so no point talking about it or complaining. My dad, who I probably got my aspie traits from as well as my depression, was the model of suffering in silence - until he decided he could suffer no more. My mom just didn’t want to see or acknowledge anything was different or wrong with me. So I had to flounder around and figure things out on my own.

I have mixed feelings about it - it sure would have been nice to understand myself better earlier. And the way I was raised definitely led to my getting sucked into an abusive marriage. On the other hand, being expected to do all the same things everyone else did with school and work forced me to develop skills I may not have if I’d been given the kinds of accommodations a kid like me would probably get now. Can’t wasnt an option.

I wouldn’t say I’ve outgrown being an aspie but I did finally learn the social skills and I’ve learned to self regulate or hide most other things (like what my kids call ‘the hand thing’ that still comes out under stress, or my discomfort in big box stores).

The bottom line is I don’t know what a more sheltered life with formal accommodations would have done. Maybe I’d be better, but who knows, maybe I wouldn’t have the skills to have my business now. Maybe I would have learned to accept limitations and be afraid of trying things outside my comfort zone.

And never believe a depressed adult cant do better. So many do, even if they suffered early abuse like me. Pity for anyone implies the belief that you dont believe they can.

I agree. I also know how hard it is.

My son had aspirations. He had things he loved. He had big wants. And then he saw that wanting things led not to the desired "feel good" state, but to disappointment, to pain, to blocks.

I think this is good. If he had aspirations, he can find them again. Or develop new ones.

One of the things that worries me about C and S is they don’t seem to have any, and never did. C said he wanted to be an astronaut until about 8th grade, not because he meant it but because he’d been saying it since he was 6 and didn’t have anything else to say. He never showed the slightest interest in space or science as he grew up, or took any concrete steps toward making it happen. But he never found anything more realistic or appropriate to his own interests and abilities to latch on to. S never did either. It was like they didn’t have any vision of themselves as adults at all. S didn’t even find any hobbies she enjoyed. We tried gymnastics, art, music, anything she expressed even slight interest in. Nothing stuck. I feel like this aimlessness and lack of goals and aspirations is a big part of their problem.

The important thing to remember here, for me, is that my son is not me. And I am not my son. I need to be front and center that I do not have an activist role in the life of another adult.

I think this is a key insight. And where I am coming to as well.

Thank you both for giving me much to think about.

 

[BusynMember]

Else, again, you are kind, compassionate and have amazing insight.

I agree that CBT took a lot of work, but it was very worth it. I never got as much out of talk therapy. CBT trains you to think differently. Kudos for Dr. David Burns who wrote the amazing book "Feeling Good," my first introduction to CBT.

We have things in common! I hope you keep posting

 

[Smithmom]

Elsi

To this day, and I'm old, I still "don't know what I want to be when I grow up". My only aspiration was to be a Mom. And I did that though it didn't turn out as it was in my dreams. I saw a job that sounded challenging and I took it. Certainly it was something no one ever heard of. And in my generation anyone in IT never had aspirations for IT. So I don't think that lack of aspiration is a hindrance.

I made the HS do career testing on my son. Identified the two things he most enjoyed doing, helping people and working with machines. Then we looked for jobs based on what was available. Perhaps most jobs are boring to our children. Thankfully I have been able to identify what mine like to do, though I needed the HS for one. So my discussions with them have always been about doing those things. Not the setting, the million $ ck they want or where it will go. No lofty ideas, just how are you going to make rent.

 

[Smithmom]

CBT did nothing for me. DBT class, classroom setting, textbook, homework, etc changed my life.

 

[BusynMember]

I read about DBT and it sounds great too. I did CBT long ago (old too!) And it was my first experience without just talk therapy. It was all there was except talk therapy