H
HaoZi
Guest
I can't image the tampons are much more comfortable than the eyeball thing.
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JJJ
Active Member
Clearly I missed some of MrSlammer's posts but just to comment on what is still posted...
Many of us have 'given up' on our difficult children and feel 'disgust' for their choices. It doesn't feel fair that he was jumped on for expressing those feelings. If he had said 'detached' instead of 'given up', he could have been any one of us with older teens/young adults that just won't comply with treatment. I am nearly completely detached from Kanga and her antics, a luxury I have due to her continued placement in Residential Treatment Center (RTC). I say 'detached' but is that really different than giving up the vain hope that anything I do can make a difference in her choices?
Many of us have 'given up' on our difficult children and feel 'disgust' for their choices. It doesn't feel fair that he was jumped on for expressing those feelings. If he had said 'detached' instead of 'given up', he could have been any one of us with older teens/young adults that just won't comply with treatment. I am nearly completely detached from Kanga and her antics, a luxury I have due to her continued placement in Residential Treatment Center (RTC). I say 'detached' but is that really different than giving up the vain hope that anything I do can make a difference in her choices?
T
toughlovin
Guest
Thanks JJJ for posting this... I had been thinking along the same lines. I hope actually MrSammler does not leave the forum. I often disagreed with him and often didn't agree but he certainly gave me some food for thought and he really did learn a lot from being here and we could see that growth. So MrSammler if you are still reading try to take the comments to heart like you have in the past without feeling like you are not welcome.... because I have welcomed hearing what you have had to say and some of your experience.
As a mother I don't think I would feel contempt for my child but I have certainly felt great sadness and also disgust at some of his actions and choices. When we were on vacation and he was homeless I was close to feeling like giving up.... and I realized it wasn't so much as giving up as starting to feel resigned. I was just resigned that he was probably going to end up in prison, that there wasn't a darned thing I could do about it, it was just was.
I am more hopeful now but that is because he is now seeing help and treatment. However I know that if he chooses to stop treatment that I will have to be resigned again.... because really there is nothing I can do except love him at this point and his choices are his choices.
And if I was his aunt instead of his mother i might very well write him off.
TL
As a mother I don't think I would feel contempt for my child but I have certainly felt great sadness and also disgust at some of his actions and choices. When we were on vacation and he was homeless I was close to feeling like giving up.... and I realized it wasn't so much as giving up as starting to feel resigned. I was just resigned that he was probably going to end up in prison, that there wasn't a darned thing I could do about it, it was just was.
I am more hopeful now but that is because he is now seeing help and treatment. However I know that if he chooses to stop treatment that I will have to be resigned again.... because really there is nothing I can do except love him at this point and his choices are his choices.
And if I was his aunt instead of his mother i might very well write him off.
TL
ThreeShadows
Quid me anxia?
I know that I felt contempt for difficult child 2 when he made a false report about me to CPS. By doing so, he ruined husband's credibility in any appearance he had to make in court to testify about child abuse. This son of ours had actually endangered the real victims of abuse in our community, and he did it because he couldn't get HIS way in OUR home.
Contempt is not necessarily a permanent feeling, especially when love is also involved.
Contempt is not necessarily a permanent feeling, especially when love is also involved.
Oh TL and Tourette's Syndrome I so agree with you. I have seen members have contempt for their difficult child's, their husband's, their ex-husband's and even friends and relatives. It is not always a permanent thing but is often a cry because we are hurt and disgusted and hopeless and down right sick and tired of their bad choices. I dare to say I have had contempt in my heart for my difficult child from time to time. It's not something I am proud of and I would never go around telling people that, but difficult child's bring up some hateful feeelings inside us.
I think it would be much easier to detach from a nephew so I'm not sure why MrS would like to remain here reading all of our stories over and over but that is his choice. I know if I was detached from the problem if it were not my own child, I wouldn't want this forum as a reminder. And I must say I was hurt and offended when MrS told me that the sober house my difficult child was in was just another flop house for addicts, but I told him that and he apologized. I chalk that up to him not knowing my story over the past thirteen years that I've been here.
As was said by someone else it is all a matter of approach. I actually agree somewhat with MrS's theory about gfgness on a spectrum with common behaviors and themes running through. I have so many friends outside of this board that I know of with difficult child's and the stories are all the same. My difficult child is now an addict. She was not an addict at two or five or eight. But she certainly exhibited some traits that I now recognize in other difficult child's that indicates something is going on with these kids that often just spirals into addiction and legal problems as they get older. When they start to tell me their story I am amazed at how even the things they say and do are exactly what my difficult child has done. We often have a saying that our difficult child's share the same dna.
"Yes--because I do agree that GFGness is a mental illness, a point on the spectrum floating somewhere in the borderline/narcissistic/anti-social personality spectrum. It's just waaaay too symptomatically consistent from one kid to the next for it to be merely human variety--it partakes of a defined cluster of very predictably patterned behaviors. And I also grant that there are very different degrees of GFGness, and that the lesser degrees of the difficult child spectrum do allow for a lot of realistic hope for recovery."
I can't disagree with this and have often believed this with respect to those difficult child's I personally know. It was no surprise to me that my difficult child was disagnosed with borderline traits when she was in rehab.
I'm not sure I disagree much with what MrS has expressed but I often have a problem with how he expressed it. I hope this is a learning experience.
Nancy
I think it would be much easier to detach from a nephew so I'm not sure why MrS would like to remain here reading all of our stories over and over but that is his choice. I know if I was detached from the problem if it were not my own child, I wouldn't want this forum as a reminder. And I must say I was hurt and offended when MrS told me that the sober house my difficult child was in was just another flop house for addicts, but I told him that and he apologized. I chalk that up to him not knowing my story over the past thirteen years that I've been here.
As was said by someone else it is all a matter of approach. I actually agree somewhat with MrS's theory about gfgness on a spectrum with common behaviors and themes running through. I have so many friends outside of this board that I know of with difficult child's and the stories are all the same. My difficult child is now an addict. She was not an addict at two or five or eight. But she certainly exhibited some traits that I now recognize in other difficult child's that indicates something is going on with these kids that often just spirals into addiction and legal problems as they get older. When they start to tell me their story I am amazed at how even the things they say and do are exactly what my difficult child has done. We often have a saying that our difficult child's share the same dna.
"Yes--because I do agree that GFGness is a mental illness, a point on the spectrum floating somewhere in the borderline/narcissistic/anti-social personality spectrum. It's just waaaay too symptomatically consistent from one kid to the next for it to be merely human variety--it partakes of a defined cluster of very predictably patterned behaviors. And I also grant that there are very different degrees of GFGness, and that the lesser degrees of the difficult child spectrum do allow for a lot of realistic hope for recovery."
I can't disagree with this and have often believed this with respect to those difficult child's I personally know. It was no surprise to me that my difficult child was disagnosed with borderline traits when she was in rehab.
I'm not sure I disagree much with what MrS has expressed but I often have a problem with how he expressed it. I hope this is a learning experience.
Nancy
Steely
Active Member
Of course we all give up, have contempt, disgust, rage - etc towards our difficult children. My whole point, and perhaps I over-reacted, is that I have no idea why someone would come on this board, and repeatedly tell us what a loser his nephew is, and how he has given up on him, and that difficult children feel no shame. How is that in any way helping anyone? It only reminds me of all the people that said that to me about Matt - including my X - over and over again.
Maybe for some of you it is helpful - but for me - it just continuously throws fuel in my wounds. Perhaps it is being a single Mom, that I got all of the Dad's of matt's friends and enemies in my face - bullying me -but I have a real thing with people making blanket statements about things that they have do not know about or have not experienced first hand. FIRST HAND, as in IN THE TRENCHES - not swooping in and out to help as it boosted or served their ego.
I used to feel SO alone, that no one really could understand what I went through on a daily basis. I did not have a choice to "walk away" or "expel" him from my school, or not "let him not come over anymore".... but I constantly had these people walk in and tell me exactly what I should be doing, and how - and what a loser Matt was going to turn out to be - and that I should just cut the ties now. The more people said that to me - the more defiant I became. The more determined I became that I would see Matt through this - and that I would NOT give up.
So, I think of MrS's sister, who perhaps feels the same way. She needed someone have her back - forever. If not her nephews, hers. And I just don't see how a brother can walk in to his sister's life for 14 months, not solve the problem, abandon the kid and his sister with fervor and fury - and then think he can come on this board to "share" his experience and try and help others???? Nope, I find it insulting and disgusting.
If he wants to come back and 'share' I don't care - but I will not be the one reading any of his threads. To me his perspective feeds the entire ostracization of the mentally ill and perpetuates the stigma of mental illness.
Maybe for some of you it is helpful - but for me - it just continuously throws fuel in my wounds. Perhaps it is being a single Mom, that I got all of the Dad's of matt's friends and enemies in my face - bullying me -but I have a real thing with people making blanket statements about things that they have do not know about or have not experienced first hand. FIRST HAND, as in IN THE TRENCHES - not swooping in and out to help as it boosted or served their ego.
I used to feel SO alone, that no one really could understand what I went through on a daily basis. I did not have a choice to "walk away" or "expel" him from my school, or not "let him not come over anymore".... but I constantly had these people walk in and tell me exactly what I should be doing, and how - and what a loser Matt was going to turn out to be - and that I should just cut the ties now. The more people said that to me - the more defiant I became. The more determined I became that I would see Matt through this - and that I would NOT give up.
So, I think of MrS's sister, who perhaps feels the same way. She needed someone have her back - forever. If not her nephews, hers. And I just don't see how a brother can walk in to his sister's life for 14 months, not solve the problem, abandon the kid and his sister with fervor and fury - and then think he can come on this board to "share" his experience and try and help others???? Nope, I find it insulting and disgusting.
If he wants to come back and 'share' I don't care - but I will not be the one reading any of his threads. To me his perspective feeds the entire ostracization of the mentally ill and perpetuates the stigma of mental illness.
Steely I understand but I guess I've been at this too long and no longer have the fight in me. I don't think he said anything that horrible to cause such an outpouring of negative comments like insulting and disgusting. Like is always said here, take what you want and leave the rest. If you don't like what someone says ignore it. To me what he said about predictable patterned behaviors really hit home because I have been seeing that more and more with acquaintances of ours that have difficult children.
This board is a soft place to land for all of us who have difficult children in our lives. Sometimes we need to vent, sometimes we say things here we can't say out loud anywhere else. I have read posts where members complain bitterly about their children or spouses and we all accept that and try to help in whatever way we can. If a member is abusive to another member that's one thing, but having an opinion that may be different from another is perfectly acceptable. His comment about why his nephew can't think about more inportant things than drugs is no different than what I have said many times. In fact in my darkest hours I have said much worse.
I haven't read anything where he is abusive to members. I think if he was a moderator would intervene. I don't like mob mentality and that's what seems to be going on. I took offense to some of his comments before and told him, they were not repeated. I am completely oblivious to what all this anger is about. I have read and reread his comments and I guess I just don't get it.
Nancy
This board is a soft place to land for all of us who have difficult children in our lives. Sometimes we need to vent, sometimes we say things here we can't say out loud anywhere else. I have read posts where members complain bitterly about their children or spouses and we all accept that and try to help in whatever way we can. If a member is abusive to another member that's one thing, but having an opinion that may be different from another is perfectly acceptable. His comment about why his nephew can't think about more inportant things than drugs is no different than what I have said many times. In fact in my darkest hours I have said much worse.
I haven't read anything where he is abusive to members. I think if he was a moderator would intervene. I don't like mob mentality and that's what seems to be going on. I took offense to some of his comments before and told him, they were not repeated. I am completely oblivious to what all this anger is about. I have read and reread his comments and I guess I just don't get it.
Nancy
The only part we really don't know, is whether on-going exposure to this forum will eventually cause some different perspectives to sink into someone else's life. I don't like the "attitude" of certain posters, either. And I'm guessing that there are probably some on the board who don't exactly like me, either. But... sometimes you have to wonder why certain people keep coming back, with the same old tired lines, and then I think... maybe those lines are just a front, maybe they really ARE looking for answers, and at some point, something will get through a chink in their armour.
There's a fine line between "personal attacks" and "general attitude".
There's a fine line between "personal attacks" and "general attitude".
flutterby
Fly away!
Nancy, I don't know when you read this thread, but it seems as if one long post on this thread by mrsandler that created the outpour has been deleted.
When one consistently makes strong, all inclusive, all or nothing statements, there is going to be a reaction.
"difficult children will always threaten suicide...." (on another thread)
"difficult children feel no shame or embarrassment."
And I disagree that GFGness is a mental illness. That is a completely backward statement. Our kids are difficult children *because* of a mental illness, brain disorder, addiction, whatever you want to call it. And I take offense to the notion that all difficult children fall into the same category of mental illness, as mrsandler put it, of "borderline/narcissistic/anti-social personality spectrum." That simply isn't the case. Many psychiatric disorders have overlapping symptoms and behavior. That does not make them interchangeable.
I also take strong offense to his constant berating of his sister because she hasn't detached and/or stopped enabling to his liking. How many parents here struggle with that on a daily basis? We don't need yet another person telling us how horrible we are and how we're screwing up our kids because we haven't mastered that art yet.
When people come onto this board and repeatedly say things that offend or hurt our members - old, new, and lurking - or makes blanket generalizations that do no good and possibly cause harm, I take personal offense to that. You're right this is our soft place to land. We get enough koi from people who don't get it everywhere else. We don't need it here.
I ignored mrsandler most of the time, biting my tongue often. But that deleted post? That was it for me.
When one consistently makes strong, all inclusive, all or nothing statements, there is going to be a reaction.
"difficult children will always threaten suicide...." (on another thread)
"difficult children feel no shame or embarrassment."
And I disagree that GFGness is a mental illness. That is a completely backward statement. Our kids are difficult children *because* of a mental illness, brain disorder, addiction, whatever you want to call it. And I take offense to the notion that all difficult children fall into the same category of mental illness, as mrsandler put it, of "borderline/narcissistic/anti-social personality spectrum." That simply isn't the case. Many psychiatric disorders have overlapping symptoms and behavior. That does not make them interchangeable.
I also take strong offense to his constant berating of his sister because she hasn't detached and/or stopped enabling to his liking. How many parents here struggle with that on a daily basis? We don't need yet another person telling us how horrible we are and how we're screwing up our kids because we haven't mastered that art yet.
When people come onto this board and repeatedly say things that offend or hurt our members - old, new, and lurking - or makes blanket generalizations that do no good and possibly cause harm, I take personal offense to that. You're right this is our soft place to land. We get enough koi from people who don't get it everywhere else. We don't need it here.
I ignored mrsandler most of the time, biting my tongue often. But that deleted post? That was it for me.
I'll second that, Nancy.
Steely
Active Member
Oh WOW - I didn't even see that THE post was deleted. Well no wonder!!! Thank you Heather!!!!
Well no wonder you guys are not seeing it as I am....Thank God. I thought I was going crazy. See that is EXACTLY what makes me mad....here I am ranting about a post that is not even there - and I look like an idiot that has an axe to grind - when in reality - HE deleted out the offensive post without telling anyone.
not fair - I give. Grrrrrrr.
Well no wonder you guys are not seeing it as I am....Thank God. I thought I was going crazy. See that is EXACTLY what makes me mad....here I am ranting about a post that is not even there - and I look like an idiot that has an axe to grind - when in reality - HE deleted out the offensive post without telling anyone.
not fair - I give. Grrrrrrr.
Ephchap
Active Member
Some of the comments were deleted by the poster, so this thread does not make a lot of sense to someone looking at it, since it's not in its entirety.
That being said, let's all try to remember that this is supposed to be a soft place to land. The poster in question did seem to cause controversy with some comments, but I have tried to let members speak freely - so long as they are not pointing fingers or crossing boundaries and lines. I think this post came very close to teetering on the edge.
Some of us parents have withstood years of trying to understand, help, and then sometimes detach, from our childrens' behaviors as a result of psychiatric diagnosis and/or substance abuse. Most of us have been in or are currently in a very dark place with our substance abuse children. The last thing any of us needs is to have anyone make us feel even worse.
This group has always been in each other's corner - supplying information or opinions, or a shoulder to cry on, or someone to prop us up when needed. It is a very supportive corner so let's continue to support each other. If you feel any member is crossing a line, feel free to PM me (as some of you did). If I haven't seen the post, I will certainly look at it just as soon as I can.
Thanks for being the wonderful group you all are. I'm going to close this now.
Deb
That being said, let's all try to remember that this is supposed to be a soft place to land. The poster in question did seem to cause controversy with some comments, but I have tried to let members speak freely - so long as they are not pointing fingers or crossing boundaries and lines. I think this post came very close to teetering on the edge.
Some of us parents have withstood years of trying to understand, help, and then sometimes detach, from our childrens' behaviors as a result of psychiatric diagnosis and/or substance abuse. Most of us have been in or are currently in a very dark place with our substance abuse children. The last thing any of us needs is to have anyone make us feel even worse.
This group has always been in each other's corner - supplying information or opinions, or a shoulder to cry on, or someone to prop us up when needed. It is a very supportive corner so let's continue to support each other. If you feel any member is crossing a line, feel free to PM me (as some of you did). If I haven't seen the post, I will certainly look at it just as soon as I can.
Thanks for being the wonderful group you all are. I'm going to close this now.
Deb
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