Ask me anything - Adult diagnosed with ODD as a child and living with similar issues today

[mindinggaps]

Hello all! Some of you know me and my story well, but I wanted to introduce this thread to ensure that all members, both new and old feel comfortable asking me any questions. I am an adult who was diagnosed with ODD very young. I have been on psychiatric medications since age 5.

ODD is not generally recognized in the psychiatric community in those over 18, but I have very similar issues today. As an adult my official diagnoses are: Intermittent Explosive Disorder (Intermittent Explosive Disorder (IED)), Generalized Anxiety Disorder (Generalized Anxiety Disorder (GAD)), major depressive disorder and Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD)).

To manage my conditions I take a medication cocktail of: Prozac (60mg), Abilify (5mg), Lamictal (100mg), Effexor (75mg), Vyvanse (30mg).

With these treatments, I have a fairly high quality of life with stable full-time work and a relationship.

Please feel free to ask me any questions about any aspect of my experiences of life as either an adult or child. I am here to provide insight into the mind and life of someone with ODD.

 

[Copabanana]

ODD is not generally recognized in the psychiatric community in those over 18

Hi mg.

I'll put my two cents in. It's not that the psychiatric community doesn't believe that the constellation of symptoms and behaviors don't continue to exist. It's because at age 18 the patient assumes personal full legal responsibility and legal autonomy apart from parents and other caregivers and authority figures.

Which is to say that because there is the expectation that the person has the stature of full personhood, there is no longer the
issues of defiance (ie, no parent carries authority), and opposition to whom? It is here when the diagnosis of sociopathy might come to bear (defying and indifference to social and legal norms). Why? Because the person now legally bears full responsibility under the law for their conduct, and the child or juvenile did not. By early adulthood bipolar diagnosis and the thought disorders could manifest (up until recently bipolar disorder diagnosis was not used for a youngster. Now it is (for me, unwisely so.)

So really ODD is only a placeholder diagnosis used to describe behaviors until either the child is legally an adult, or the now young adult fully manifests what has been fueling the behaviors.

You are a hero, mg.

 

[lovemysons]

MG
I wish my now deceased son had been honest with psychiatrist’s as an adult. Unfortunately, almost every time he was in front of a psychiatrist without a parent of course, he wanted to get ahold of medications he could abuse to get high.

It’s a very difficult situation to manage when the patient becomes an adult and even more so perhaps if they have a drug addiction problem.

I’m glad you are a success story and know that what you are taking helps you be successful and function well in society.
I wish every difficult child with underlying issues could become a success story.
As Copa said…you are a hero.

 

[mindinggaps]

So really ODD is only a placeholder diagnosis used to describe behaviors until either the child is legally an adult, or the now young adult fully manifests what has been fueling the behaviors.

Dear @Copabanana - this description is exactly correct. The set of behaviors which we associate with ODD such as anger, aggression, poor emotional regulation, rejection of authority, desire to disobey and so on continue into aduthood. However, the label of ODD is a temporary placeholder and once the patient turns 18, these symptoms are usually bucketed under a different diagnosis or classification once the prognosis and situation are easier to assess and more well understood. In my case, most of what we would associate with ODD would fall under my Intermittent Explosive Disorder (IED) diagnosis which was formally applied in my teens.

For those less familiar, Intermittent Explosive Disorder (IED) is characterized characterized by explosive outbursts of anger and rage that can be triggered by small things leading to violence, impulsive screaming and verbal and physical aggression. These aggressive acts usually cause both enjoyment, pleasure and relief but are usually followed by remorse. Intermittent Explosive Disorder (IED) is almost always comorbid with other mood disorders, frequently anxiety and Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD), as is my case. In contrast with something like bipolar, mood is not cyclic and there is risk of explosions equally across all situations including during positive and neutral situations. However, Intermittent Explosive Disorder (IED) is a severe situation that usually requires multiple pharmaceutical treatments. I view Intermittent Explosive Disorder (IED) as very much a continuation of my ODD diagnosis.

It’s a very difficult situation to manage when the patient becomes an adult and even more so perhaps if they have a drug addiction problem.

@lovemysons Managing psychiatric treatments is very hard and I am sorry to hear that things were a challenge for your son. Drug addictions are scary and one reason I have survived is that I have never fallen victim to drugs. Personally, I can say that the psychiatrists I have worked with have been excellent in managing things and none of the medications I took carried significant risk here, but this is hard to find.

One thing to note is that most of my symptoms were managed with a single medication until my early teens. Only then were more experimental things introduced. This is contextual as I was a teen in the mid 90s and very few medications were really trusted to be safe. Nowadays it's easier to manage things in young kids with these symptoms.

 

[Nandina]

I once had a counselor tell me that ODD symptoms in an adult is considered conduct disorder.

 

[mindinggaps]

Hi @Nandina - Based on my experience and understanding CD is another diagnosis which is applied to youth as a sort of placeholder until more detailed diagnoses can be applied later in life. For CD in particular, I believe it is often a precursor for a diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder which cannot be diagnosed until 18. However CD and ODD in youth can lead to various other diagnoses later in life.

Regardless, in some sense these delineations come down to semantics in the psychiatric community and different populations may define things differently. I think the main point is that the symptoms which we associated with ODD/CD persist into adulthood, however it is ultimately labelled. The official diagnoses by psychiatrists are used to determine which pharmacological approach to take.

 

[lovemysons]

Conduct Disorder is what my oldest son was dxd with at age 14. The dual diagnosis Rehab both of our sons went to (oldest for 6 months, younger for 4 months) told us he was very smart and manipulative and would ultimately grow up to be a dangerous criminal type (antisocial) because they could not get through to him.
They told us to give our oldest to the State to raise and concentrate on the younger son.

Younger son is the one who ended up never being able to kick his addiction problems and had more severe mental illness issues like me. He is the one who passed away homeless alone on a highway Thanksgiving morning 2021 with Meth in his system. He was hit by an illegal immigrant with no driver’s license. Extremely sad. I miss him terribly!

Oldest finally got sober, is owner of a 10 million dollar a year company, works 70 hours a week. Has all 3 of his daughters in a private Christian school. By most accounts he is a success story. Hopefully it lasts. He is not on medication and the church he goes to now does not believe in mental illness or medication. They see it as more of a character defect or spiritual flaw. It’s bittersweet. The one I was so incredibly close to died and the one who ended up being a hard worker sober and successful I am not close to now because of my mental illness and his work schedule.

But in any event the professionals sure got it all wrong!
Our sons were without a doubt a “challenge” and baffled many with lots of letters behind their names!

Your parents are so blessed to have never had to deal with addiction issues and you for never having to have suffered that way.

 

[Nandina]

Lovemysons, I pray that someday you will become closer with your older son.

It is so hard to predict how a child will turn out and I’m surprised the diagnoses for your sons were so grave at such young ages.

Most of us have experienced watching a once sweet-natured child become sullen and moody with the onset of puberty and its hormonal and behavioral changes. It has been my experience that this unusual behavior can continue or even begin well into young adulthood.

My (now 32 yr old son, not the one who brought me here), was like the perfect child, never got into any trouble, played football and wrestled in high school, good natured, no drugs. But after having to drop out of college due to poor grades, (mainly because he had discovered partying), he returned home a different person and made our lives very difficult. It was like a delayed puberty, only by now he was 20. There were things he did that were so out of character for him that I still can’t believe and have a hard time talking about. We had to ask him to leave.

The next few years were difficult as he struggled to find a decent job and a place to live. He was never homeless but did a lot of couch-surfing. I know he was depressed during this period and it also influenced his behavior. Fortunately, he never got into drugs or I know the outcome might have been very different.

Today he is the successful manager of a business that always ranks in the top for our region and supervises a group of employees. My son has become a good leader and role model. We are so proud of him. But 10 years ago, I could not have predicted this for him. He could have just as easily become a criminal if his behavior had been any indication.

I realize not everyone here shares that experience and its positive outcome. I, too, have another son (age 22), the one who brought me here, who is struggling, very immature, has been into drugs, incarcerated and homeless. But even with all his challenges, I am seeing glimmers of hope that he is beginning to mature.

He has a very long way to go but currently has a steady job and a place to live. Two years ago he probably would have preferred to be homeless. He no longer does hard drugs (although vapes MJ). He is trying to save money to get an apartment with a friend. I do worry about him because he often makes poor or impulsive decisions and has no money management skills. And he is now a convicted felon, with all the baggage that brings. Right now it is hard to know how he will turn out. But there is still time.

I am sharing my experience to let others who are having difficulties with their kids know not to give up hope and that maturity develops at different times in our adult children. And science recognizes that the pre-frontal cortex of the brain (controls impulsivity, judgment, realizing consequences) is not fully developed until about age 25 or so. Therefore, It really short-changes children to assume they are doomed to a life of crime or misbehavior just because they are hard to manage as teens.

 

[Nandina]

MG, didn’t mean to hijack your thread!

 

[mindinggaps]

MG, didn’t mean to hijack your thread!

@Nandina - Thank you so much for sharing. I appreciate hearing the stories of others and how you have managed. Your contributions to the thread are very valued!

 

[lovemysons]

Thank you Nandina.

I pray I become closer again with my older son too. Seems all he has time for these days is making his fortune. He also seems to have shut down his emotions according to my husband who works with him. In addition, oldest son did not even go to his brother’s funeral. Broke my heart. He was upset with his brother for the choices he had made in his life that lead to his death.
Once upon a time my son’s were best friends. Very sad outcome.

 

[WorriedGrandma]

Newbie here. I'm very concerned about my grandson (7). He was a very early premie, which I believe has led to his gastro problems and ADHD. But there is still some behavior problems that I think may be ODD. I don't believe he has been tested for that. My son (his father) was also ADHD, so I know a lot of those symptoms, and what I see in grandson is not quite the same at all. At 7, he is still throwing major tantrums because his food is not quite right, or he's told he can't so something. If you tell him to stop doing something, he'll look you straight in the eye and do it anyway. If you tell him it is time for <bed/to go/whatever> it is a fight to get him going. He interrupts people and gets upset if we correct him for it. Punishment often either doesn't phase him, or it sets off a tantrum. Sometimes when you explain that his behavior is unacceptable, he grins at you. He is having social trouble at school, but his grades are fine. He was kicked out of an afterschool program because he was hitting/pushing other kids. He has expectations that are unreasonable -- such as having a meltdown at Thanksgiving because we didn't have mac n cheese for him (although he never said he wanted that.)

My son and daughter-in-law are taking him to counselling, but so far the ADHD is the only diagnosis. His behavior is causing major problems in the household. They also have an 8-year old daughter who does not exhibit these behaviors, so I doubt if their parenting is lax.

I watch the kids rather often, as they can't seem to get a babysitter.

Does this sound like ODD?

 

[lovemysons]

Hi worried grandma…
This does sound like ODD to me but I haven’t been where you’re at for a very long time.

I think it would be wise to go have your grandson seen by a psychiatrist and do a full evaluation on him. He may need medication therapy.

He sure sounds like a handful and you sound like a very concerned grandmother. I hope everything turns out well for all of you.

 

[mindinggaps]

Does this sound like ODD?

Dear @WorriedGrandma - Based on your description, you are right to be worried and it is good that you have found yourself here. Many people have lots of experience with these situations. It is very hard to say whether this is ODD or some other issue. However, it does definitely sound like problematic and maladjusted behaviors.

It is good he is in therapy. However, it would like be prudent as has been suggested to have a complete psychiatric evaluation to determine the situation. If he is not responding to counseling, medication is likely needed. Early intervention is key, so the sooner you can get help, the better.

 

[WorriedGrandma]

Dear @WorriedGrandma - Based on your description, you are right to be worried and it is good that you have found yourself here. Many people have lots of experience with these situations. It is very hard to say whether this is ODD or some other issue. However, it does definitely sound like problematic and maladjusted behaviors.

It is good he is in therapy. However, it would like be prudent as has been suggested to have a complete psychiatric evaluation to determine the situation. If he is not responding to counseling, medication is likely needed. Early intervention is key, so the sooner you can get help, the better.

Thank you very much. I talked with my son last night, and he said that difficult child has not been tested of ODD. I firmly asked him to do so. I believe I read where 40% of ADHD children also have ODD, and he is also very ADHD. That is primarily what the counselors are looking at, and he is on medication for ADHD. The article also says that they often grow out of it, but so far haven't seen signs of it going away. The stories here have me very worried -- tales of homelessness, drug addiction, suicide, etc. I'm thankful that you are doing well in life - it gives us hope!

My son also suffers from ADHD and depression, and has gotten through life fairly well -- steady job, good relations, etc. But I know he struggles to keep live on an even keel (and is on medication to help him). I believe our family was already carrying some nasty genes, and difficult child's prematurity didn't help in the least bit!

Again, thank you for being on this forum.

 

[mindinggaps]

@WorriedGrandma - You are right to be worried, but you are doing what you can. Early intervention and treatment is a predictor of longer term success, so there is reason to be optimistic. Try not to focus on the longer term concerns and instead spend energy on what you can control now and on helping to optimize his treatment.

A proper and comprehensive diagnosis will help. It is concerning that his behavior is out of control to the level it is if he is on medication for the ADHD. This suggests you may want to evaluate this part of his treatment. Perhaps the medication or dosage are not the right fit. It's also possible he has comorbid depression or anxiety and may need an add on medication to help settle things. If the medication was working as it should, he would be more well controlled. Do you know if this is being managed by a psychiatrist?

 

[KTMom91]

As @mindinggaps said above, the medications may not be right. Strattera is not a stimulant medication, and while it worked (briefly) for my daughter when she was in middle school, it was a complete disaster for my husband (her stepdad). I suggest you keep detailed notes of his behaviors, including the times when the outbursts happen, since the medications might be wearing off too soon. There used to be a parent report blank somewhere on the site that will help you organize your thoughts, but I don't remember exactly where. Hopefully someone else will come along who remembers.

Many hugs.

 

[Deni D]

I found a parent input report outline from years ago but it applies today for both school interventions (IEP/504) and evaluations from doctor's.
You can find it here ~ Parent Report

I added a post to the thread listing some memory joggers while working on putting the report together.

Also something I'd like to point out which has often been mentioned in forums here in years gone by. When you have a child who is dealing with involved issues it's best to have a neuropsychological evaluation done and by a licensed neuropsychologist. My personal experience, with a difficult school district, has been to find your own neuropsychologist because someone working for a school district might not be working in your child's best interest so their findings might be skewed a bit.

 

[WorriedGrandma]

I was just told he was going to a children's "specialist." They did a lot of tests for the ADHD to determine the best medications -- Strattera was determined to be more appropriate than stimulants, and I know he is on other drugs besides that -- I've just forgotten which ones. His older sister (8) is also ADHD but to a much lesser extent. The two can really wind each other up, but older sister can settle down where he can't. Lately I've been asking her to help settle him, and it seems to be working well. (Showing Grandma what a good helper she can be.) Difficult boy and his dad clash frequently, mostly with raised voices. I know how to guide ADHD energy, but the direct defiance and not following rules is hard to deal with.
He can also be very sweet and if he wants to, he can get along with family.

 

[mindinggaps]

Dear @WorriedGrandma - Thanks for sharing. It's good to hear that he is seeing someone experienced treating children with similar issues. There are many psychiatrists who are not well versed in managing complex cases in children and finding a good specialist can make a huge difference in treatment.

Based on my own experience and the situation you've described, I do believe a closer look at his medications may be required. The reality is that medication management is a lifelong issue and things will regularly need to be evaluated, adjusted and changed based on symptoms and life circumstances. The thing to keep in mind is that if his medications are performing optimally, he really shouldn't be having angry outbursts or defiant behavior to quite the level you seem to describe. It just seems possible that something in the mix isn't working exactly as intended. For context, I take a cocktail of medications and still to this day it is evolving and requires adjustments. What I can say is that since I have been a child, when the balance is right, behavior does not tend to be overly chaotic. Also remember that for medications, you can do extensive "testing", but really it is based on real life results. You try, adjust and iterate until you are getting the results you need.

I do not mean to suggest anyone is doing anything wrong here, I just look to where improvements could be made.