Can't catch a break...

[A dad]

Oh I lived with such a person my father the most messy disorganised person I ever knew.
Hygene terrible he washed once every 2 weeks. He wore clothes for weeks not days, he lost well money, bycicles, important papers his shoes and that quite often.
It had consequences of course those and other things he did.
But to his credit he raised me and my siblings even the step ones with the exception of one who when he was the age of your daughter had her in one night stand to put it like that and left the village after he heard that person was pregnant.
He brought misery to other people much misery but he grew up as much as he could.
I am sure your daughter will do that also because I see someone who can and does grow up just slower but she does. She will never be as grown up as you but as my father was she will be as much as she can and might bring good in this world.

 

[Copabanana]

many on this forum parents where not really better at her age

I do not think "all" of us were better at this age. I am a doctor, now collecting social security.

I could say (and do, in relation to my own son, because I am a hypocrite) that I was better except at least, I omit the word "better" but to my shame it is implied. I will spare you the particulars.

There may be a "truth" to this manipulation of facts but it is not the real truth.

When I was 21 through 23, I used meth in the form of "uppers" or "bennies" which were openly sold where I worked as a waitress; on a couple of occasions I used psychedelics; I used "downers" which I loved. I was twice arrested. I participated in student riots and I have an FBI file, I guess from that.

I went to parties with Hells Angels where I drank "punch" laced with all manner of drugs and spent days in a drug-fueled haze of angry rage. I stumbled into an orgy (and backed out). I aided the cover-up of a felony crime which I realized many years later, made me an accessory. I hung out with drug dealers and went with them in cars to make pick ups and drops. While I did not participate in a general sense I should have "known" what was happening, and would have been held responsible had we been apprehended. I drank heavily, like 4 to 6 hard liquor drinks sitting at bars, most nights. And then I drove.

Please do not judge me. I am proud of none of it.

My parents were indifferent. Actually, I drank at bars with my father.

All of this lifestyle I was exposed to because I was a self-supporting student at a major university. I paid for all costs, my rent, food, car and all other expenses.

On the surface "I looked like" I was on the fast track.

While it may look like I was partying, I was not. I was lost.

I did not come of age, apparently, with the capacity to make sure I was safe, treating myself with dignity and self-respect. That, I am still learning.

I think our young people many of them are working out deep contradictions in their lives (as I was) which they do not understand. For ksm's daughters both parents have or had serious drug habits and their mother continues to live this lifestyle. They were in foster care, not always a picnic. While they were adopted, and are deeply loved, they may well feel as if they were abandoned by one or both parents.

My son has a similar background. Many other kids, here, do as well. I am thinking here of pigless' and lil's children whose fathers have killed themselves. Even if there was not direct experience of these relationships the children know on the deepest level what happened and they experience it and work it out in relation to their own lives. Even to the extent of repeating it not through a deterministic "genetic" impulse but to make sense of their lives and who they are; Not necessarily with the intention of harming themselves, but to work it through and work it out.

 

[Copabanana]

He brought misery to other people much misery but he grew up as much as he could.

My Dad was similar although he always worked.

She will never be as grown up as you but as my father was she will be as much as she can and might bring good in this world.

I love your viewpoints, a dad.

You support us to look at the humanity in our stories, to humanize ourselves and our kids; to see the human experience as unified, as whole, not as a dichotomy of right/wrong, good/bad.

I agree with you completely, that the change must come from us: in moderating our reactions, in how we understand, forgiveness, renewal, love and support without so much reaction and judgement. The stopping or curtailing the attempts to control that which we cannot. Looking for the positive, instead of wanting more and more.

I see myself constantly shifting the terms, continually changing the finish line and rules for my son, in my attempts to MAKE HIM do what I believe is in his interests, but of course, is in my own.

I love your posts, a dad.

 

[Copabanana]

Think at young adults as young adults people that do not know what they want and are trying to find out. Let them make it have great memories while they do so it will not be wasted.

This is very wise, I think.

We think we are funding an end "a college degree," a "profession" or a "trade." What we are really doing is supporting exploration and experience, so that they develop in such a way that they mature and evolve in judgement and wisdom in their lives.

I am not sanctioning or forgiving "waste," self-destruction or parental abuse.

If I look at things this way there is acceptance and calm that comes from the realization that college and conformity to proscribed conventional rules and roles is only one way to live a life.

Of course "I know this" but do I accept it? Not usually. I fight choices and behaviors of my son that do not conform to my own and general societal ways of seeing how life should be. And doing so I cause myself and my child suffering.

I "want" for him, and focus on him neglecting my own "wants." In so doing I fall into misery and I create estrangement from him and myself.

 

[BusynMember]

I should have specifically said that although we (some) had problems while we launched, like my mental illness which was quite a challenge, and although some of us were a mess, like me as a learning disabled scapegoat of a dysfunctional family, we were away from home and independent and, in my case, actively seeking help. I think most parents here actually launched pretty well. And I dont know that any of us spat at our parents or pushed them or demeaned them or sold drugs on the streets while living on the dime of our folks.

If I would have spat at my parents, and it never crossed my mind, I would have been locked out without my clothes and sent packing. These are just some of the things our adult kids have done to us.

No matter how troubled or confused our adult men and women are (like I was) none of them have the right to cuss at us, demean us, spit in our faces, shove us, hit us, bring drugs into the homes, etc. We didnt do that to our parents no matter how tough we had it, and some of us were abused. Our adult kids, unless schizophrenic and out of touch with reality, have NO RIGHT to take their confusion and angst out on us in mentally and physically abusive ways. We love them more than our own lives. There is no excuse . None. We did not do this and they have no right. Having troubled histories doesnt give them passes to deface our property, crash our cars without guilt or threaten us.

I doubt any of us even thought to spit at or strike a parent or to steal from home. Hurting ourselves, Im sure some did. Hurting our parents while living with them in ways our adult children who brought us here do...I will take a guess and say that none of us did that. Even if we were struggling badly or mentally ill, i dont believe anyone here hurt our parents the way our kids hurt us.

I might add that others have suffered like some of our kids are do well. Not all kids with troubling birthparents feel they must self destruct and be like them. Sonic didnt and he understands that his birthmother was an addict. Jumpers birthfather is in prison. She doesnt act out. Also suicide of a parent is horrible but again not all kids of suicide do poorly. Of course, some do.

A lot of this is genetics, but there is nothing in the genes that forces our kids to abuse us. They choose to do that and in my opinion there is no excuse...all the kids we speak about on this forum were loved very much.

 

[A dad]

I do agree with you Somewhere but I am talking about this child specifically.
You can search but I am confident you will see she is not that bad.
What I am trying to say to KSM is let some of your worries go and hope for the best because there is a lot for her.
I am puting her so high in hope it will help you and reduce your worries.
View her as a young adult who still grows it might surprise you.

 

[BusynMember]

A Dad, and you could be very right. I confused her kids. Imagine that. ME being confused. Cant be!

Any young teen or up to 21 has a good chance of evetually getting it together, especially if drugs are not an issue. So AGREE there is much reason to have hope.

 

[ksm]

Never mind, A Dad, sorry she is "not that bad" to you. You just don't get it. I never said she is a terrible person. And yes, I hope she matures as she ages. The problem is, she doesn't thinks she has a problem. Every body and every thing is her problem. She has an excuse for everything.

Today:

She rode the bike we gave her last week, and came to our house.

Her car still has a flat tire. I suggested we go to the car, get the spare, and see if it would stay inflated. She didn't have her car keys, left the keys at a friends house... Reminded I kept a spare in the desk. So we got her key and I drove her to her car.

She can't find the spare in the trunk! It was there 3 days ago. I saw it. Then remembers that her friend put a baby stroller in there the other night, so her friend must have taken the spare tire out of trunk. She doesn't know where the spare tire is now.

But, the trunk was filled with her dirty clothes...I suggested we load them up and take them to our house to wash them. Nope. Didn't want to.

She found another "outfit" from the donate box. Her sisters Capri leggings from 5th grade! She is now in 11th grade. (No, they don't fit) And a sheer top that is too small to button...and a sports bra.

I just hope the car doesn't get towed before she "finds" her spare tire...

Ksm

 

[mof]

Ksm,

I agree she just doesn't think normally. It must just make you look at her and say, well, what can u say when they don't listen anyhow.

I do hope she excerpts the help she needs.

 

[A dad]

KSM
I was raised by such a person so these things are not worrying to me because I saw them very often got used to it. Seems normal to me quite normal. This ate funny memories for me, my siblings and my mother.

 

[ksm]

For those not familiar with my child's diagnosis... The brain damage that occurs is permanent. But there are ways they can be helped. It takes structure...and that is one thing my daughter does not want.

Some of the neurological characteristics of
Static Encepahlopathy in persons who were
prenatally exposed to alcohol include:

• Easily distracted and disorganized
• Poor judgment
• Difficulty with abstract math and money management
• Difficulty remembering things (short term memory)
• Difficulty retrieving information from memory
• Emotional immaturity
• Inability to control impulses

For greater understanding about these neurological implications, visit FASCETS
Static Encephalopathy is not always apparent and can be misdiagnosed or go entirely unrecognized by parents, teachers, and medical professionals. Persons with alcohol induced Static Encepahopathy are often not identified and may not receive intervention and needed support services. Without identification and intervention, these persons are at high risk of secondary disabilities such as:

• mental illness
• suspension or expulsion from school
• trouble with law enforcement
• victimization or perpetration of sexual abuse
• abuse of alcohol or other drugs
• difficulty achieving independent living
• difficulty maintaining employment
• early or unwanted pregnancy or paternity

Ksm

 

[ksm]

KSM
I was raised by such a person so these things are not worrying to me because I saw them very often got used to it. Seems normal to me quite normal. This ate funny memories for me, my siblings and my mother.

It is definitely not funny. Not to me.

You have not seen her depression, her moods, her anger. I have devoted the last 13 years trying to get her the help that she needs. We fell thru the cracks. She didn't qualify for SSI.

The damage done to her developing brain is permanent. Alcohol does that to a child.

Ksm

 

[Copabanana]

ksm. How is this illness diagnosed?

Are there organic markers, over and above the behavioral ones? Can it be determined by scans such as MRI or other diagnostic tests? I was told by a pediatric neurologist that my son had one marker of fetal alcohol exposure (an extra fold in the skin of his inner eye.) My son's birth mother was a multi-drug user. My son has had extensive exposure to psychiatrists and the possibility of an alcohol-related disability has not been raised.

I am grateful to your explanation and will look into this further.

Thank you

 

[A dad]

Well you have the idea what we had to go trough while we grew up. Not to bad for us since we did not worry about him but my mother well she knows what you know also.
But he still managed in life. Also I have a strange sense of humor so that might be a problem also.
I will repeat you can not hope her to be as grown up as you and you listed the reasons.
Is there any way to work around this issues basically not fix them but go further with them there. This is the way my mother did and to a far less extent us.

 

[ksm]

It is a difficult diagnosis. She looks fine. She doesn't seem impaired when you meet her. She can talk the talk. She can't walk the walk.

Maybe your mother compensated for your father. Maybe she was able to give him the structure he needed to be more successful.

Ksm

 

[ksm]

ksm. How is this illness diagnosed?

Are there organic markers, over and above the behavioral ones? Can it be determined by scans such as MRI or other diagnostic tests? I was told by a pediatric neurologist that my son had one marker of fetal alcohol exposure (an extra fold in the skin of his inner eye.) My son's birth mother was a multi-drug user. My son has had extensive exposure to psychiatrists and the possibility of an alcohol-related disability has not been raised.

I am grateful to your explanation and will look into this further.

Thank you

There is one fetal alcohol clinic in our state. They reviewed all her records, including birth records, interviewed her, and me, took facial photos and ran them thru a software program. They had surveys from her teachers, from us, and from my daughter. My son collaborated on his witnessing bio mom using large amounts of alcohol daily for the first 4 months.

daughter had small birth weight and head circumference. She remained under the average for height and weight.

I am not aware of any tests, X-rays, etc that detect it. I have heard that there are now brain scans that can show how different areas of the brain responds... Maybe there will be more diagnostic tools in the future.

I will see if I can find a link to the clinic we went to.

Ksm

 

[ksm]

Copabanana...

No safe amount

That's the link about the clinic we went to...

Ksm

 

[Copabanana]

ksm. Thank you very much for the resource.

a dad, I think I understand and I value your perspective. Let me see if I can put into words how I interpret what you write: the human condition embraces all that is limited and frail and failed and compromised, which includes all of us, each of us. And we flail and struggle through lives which can be sad and limited and difficult and we despair. And for each of us, too, there is the capacity and experience of joy and fun. Even when it looks dissolute or errant. Those are judgements, not truths.

Except, not really. When we harm others that is wrong. What your father did was betray his wife and to a large extent abandon his children. He abandoned himself, as well. My father lived very, very badly. And I was harmed by him. I cannot rationalize this away, however much I may want to.

There is a point of view which is uniquely American I think, but maybe it is that because I am an American I see it more clearly in us, that sees life in a developmental and normalizing perspective: that to be valuable we live lives that are just so, according to certain criteria that are actually moralistic and judgmental. That we come to judge ourselves (and our kids) by this criteria, and we suffer. This criteria impels us to see people as falling short, or not, when really each of us falls short in most ways.

Which is what unifies us here on this forum. Most all of us at one point or still feel we have fallen short as parents, and that our children have fallen short in our expectations of them.

More and more as a culture we seem to be putting diagnostic names on lifestyles, and the effects of these lifestyles. For centuries and centuries we had the same spectrum of humanity without the labels and we got by.

I am not minimizing what happened to my son and to ksm's daughters, but these are not the first generation of children born to limited, self-centered, addicted parents. This is an age-old phenomenon. And it has given rise to the human condition, which has endured.

There is a liberating potential in this, if we can accept it.

What I hear a dad saying is, "it will be OK." I see him as reassuring us about ourselves and our children.

A dad, I see your posts as reminding us that everything is not so TERRIBLE, that we work these things out in the course of our lives. That people are all of them different and have their struggles. And what looks like up is not necessarily so; nor is down always down.

 

[BusynMember]

Ksm, i forgot that she was exposed to alcohol. I am so sorry. We took Sonic to a top clinic to be assessed after we adopted him. We are fortunate that he has no symptoms of fetal alcohol spectrum, but he does have a form of autism. But he can reason. And function.

I understand your fear and know quite a bit about fetal alcohol spectrum and did much research on it before we adopted a child who was substance exposed. I am sorry...you are such a good person.

 

[Nomad]

ksm...there is some similiarities with your daughter's behavior's and mine. Our daughter was diagnosis'd with bipolar illness.She also has add. As a young person, she developed a brain aneurysm requiring major surgery. I believe this negatively affected her. She is forgetful, BADLY impulsive, has trouble being accountable for her behaviors (who else should be?), can be compulsive, has BAD mood swings, often does not understand cause and effect reasoning, and seems to have some slight problems with understanding social cues. We don't know too much about her birth parents, although we do know a tiny bit of information...all of which indicates issues.
PS It has been PROFOUNDLY difficult.
My heart goes out to you.