Clearing the air

newstart

Well-Known Member
Today I sent my daughter a text asking her to talk. I had to take a break from her because of her abuse and lies. She is lucky that I am even talking to her. We talked and discussed our latest fight and the bottom line is that the root of the fights are because of her constant lies and nasty behavior towards me and staying with a guy that is totally awful. My daughter has what I call reptilian language, she is a dirty fighter. She is extremely bright so she has the right fighting words to attack even when she is in the wrong, there I am speechless again, digging for words and in a state of shock over her brilliant use of fighting words. Why on earth did she not become a defense attorney. The last time I did not talk with her for over 3 months, it helped her get rid of her belligerence towards me. I did not talk with her for 2 months this time and all I heard was angry in her voice. She was livid that her dad and I did not talk with her. What was there to say anyway? She just fires back with more reptilian language... I just don't have the fighting soul. My husband did not say a word to her but he has the right words for her, I am always amazed with the words he can come up with that lays her flat and sets things right. My son also had that ability to get to the bottom of the BS and clear the air. With my daughter, I don't think there is any air to clear, she will just pollute it again and again.
I look in the mirror and I see an ancient woman. A woman that has buried one child and has another one trying to kick her into an early grave. My daughter will do me dirty and have the words to make it seem like I am the one that did her dirty. She does not think that her lies should bother me, like I should just listen to them and go about my business and believe them. I am so wore out.
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
Dear Newstart


I am so sorry that it is more of the same. I endured something similar with my son last night. I was reduced to nothing. I melted down. I had no defenses either.

With my son he looks for support and favors from me, that involve staying in my home. I can never bear proximity to him. While he is not verbally agressive, he can be arrogant and entitled. He thinks ony of his own convenience and is without insight about how he affects me.

So I think I understand some of what you endure.

I think my own situation requires acceptance. Not of how my son acts. But acceptance of the reality of the situation and my powerlessness to change it.

I could have said no, don't come. I did not set adequate boundaries. This is a pattern that could have been anticipated. It's not my son's fault how he affects me. It's my responsibility for not setting necessary limits. I also am responsible for how I behave. I don't have to take it to heart to the extent I do. I could let it run off me, like water off a duck. I know my son loves me. And I love him. It's my responsibility to either learn how to not take this so much to heart, or to stay away. That's how I understand my own situation.
 

RN0441

100% better than I was but not at 100% yet
I too am so sorry ladies.

When we try to make someone else love us the way we want to be loved it never works. Well it is worth a try and you both have gone over and above and beyond trying.

I would say to both of you - love them from afar. Maybe not forever but for now.

You are both wonderful mothers and loving and giving people. It's not on you, any of it. Does that help you cope with the situation? Maybe not but we have to tell ourselves our own stories. This is a story about you giving it all and not getting the results you want.

As we always say, practice self-compassion and be good to yourselves and try to live your best life. You cannot let this define you. You are so much more than this!

Prayers and cyber hugs.
 

MissLulu

Well-Known Member
Newstart, I don't know if this will help, but I wanted to let you know what has worked (sort of) for me. I have let go of any expectations of my son. When I see him I try to just accept him for who he is. This is hard for me, because who he is, who he REALLY is, is someone I don't like very much, if I'm honest. He has good qualities for sure - he can be kind and loving and thoughtful, but much of the time he is self-involved and (much like Copa's son) has no interest in how his actions impact on others.

The last time I saw him he was ranting and raving about his housemate and threatening to "kick him out". I tried to have a reasonable conversation with him about this, but it began to escalate and he started to raise his voice. Instead of pushing the point, I just let it go. Because in the end, how he lives his life is up to him. So long as the rent is paid and the house is in good order (which it appears to be) how he conducts himself in it is not my business.

Do I wish that he was different? That he was a calm individual who I could have a sensible discussion with when problems arise? Yes, I do. Do I wish that he was less impulsive and better able to manage the relationships in his life? Again, yes. Like any mother who loves her child I want these things for him because I believe they are best for him. But I have let go of believing that I have any control over these things. All I can control is me.

When he started carrying on about his housemate, I withdrew from the conversation. He was on my front doorstep, as he'd come to borrow his brother's car while his was being serviced. When he started carrying on, I just said, "I'll let you get going then," and I walked away. I refused to participate in the conversation, but without making a big deal of it.

I accept that my son will probably never be the sort of person I imagined he'd be when he was that tiny baby I loved so much. He is my son and I will always love him, and that has to be enough - for both of us.
 

newstart

Well-Known Member
Thank you Copabanana, RN & Lulu for more insight and ideas.
The more I study NPD, the more I get a better understanding. My daughter goes through the devaluing and discarding stage as she goes into mania and it is extremely painful to be on the receiving end of her abuse. I have seen her boyfriend and people in her life go through horrific pain when they are the target for her abuse. I have seen grown men cry like babies and I have seen her put several people including myself into depression. Her trick to to love bomb the person, and she can be very sweet, and when she thinks you love her she then turns into a demon and gets satisfaction out of seeing how much demonic pain she can cause, she actually thinks it's entertaining.
I have seen my bipolar mother in law in so much pleasure when she thinks she has harmed me, I have also seen that look in my bipolar sister in law, the pure deep joy of deeply harming another soul. Such powerful people.

My daughter is suppose to come over tomorrow afternoon. I just pray she is not manic. I cannot except her 'as is' or for who she is because her behavior is truly unacceptable to me. Not sure what she wants, not sure why she even wants to come over. Make peace to break peace and so on and so forth. I love my daughter but not her bad behavior. Not sure what tomorrow will bring. Ugh.
My nightmares are getting better. Thank you all again for the guidance that I so desperately need.
 

MissLulu

Well-Known Member
Newstart, the behaviour you describe is very similar to my son’s and I believe there are others here whose children are also similar. I’m getting the feeling that perhaps you think others don’t understand how awful the behaviour is, but I can assure you that’s not true.

I have also read extensively on BiPolar (2) Borderline (BPD) and NPD and had many discussions with doctors and psychologists about these disorders. Studying disorders may be useful to us in terms of understanding how to avoid triggering certain behaviours, or simply knowing that we ourselves are not the cause of the problem. However,
in my opinion, having this knowledge doesn’t change anything other than giving us some tools or knowledge. What I mean is, no matter what we know or how we act, we have no control over how our adult children behave.

I could be wrong, but from your posts it seems to me that you are still focused on changing your daughter. When I talk about acceptance of my son, I mean that I accept that he is who he is and that I can’t change that.

I never accept bad behaviour from him anymore - I have boundaries in place so that doesn’t happen.

I have stopped expecting anything different from him. Of course I hope for better, but I don’t expect it and I don’t think anything I do will change it. When I withdraw from a situation with my son it is not to punish or change his behaviour, it is to protect myself. I simply don’t engage with him when he is in a “manic” or verbally aggressive state.

So what I’m saying is, if it were me, I would accept that things are not likely to change any time soon and act accordingly.

If you want to see her tomorrow, then I would set a boundary - “You can come so long as the conversation remains civilised. If an argument starts, I will ask you to leave.” If you don’t want her to come over, if it’s too much for you, then tell her it’s not convenient.

This is what I mean by acceptance.

I have stopped hoping for a miraculous change in my son and set boundaries to protect myself. I am never “not speaking” to my son. He is always welcome to contact me as long as he’s respectful.
As soon as he stops being respectful I end the call/visit or whatever.

You don’t have to play by her rules.
 

newstart

Well-Known Member
Thank you Lulu. You just wrote out what my husband said the other day. You are very wise. I know the words you said is absolute truth and it makes the most sense of everything that I am trying to do. I know I can't fix or even help my daughter. I know that all the money and years I have spent taking her to different doctors. and trying to fix it does not help, nothing can help until she wants the help and unless it comes from within her. Sometimes I just need to put words to how deeply sad and how deeply hurt I feel with her behavior.
I have a very hard time with superficial relationships, I just can't hardly do them especially when not in an office setting.
I understand what you mean by acceptance..
The problem is me. I desperately want to have a healthy give and take with my daughter, she can give be bits and pieces of that and when I want to keep it going and at a good pace she tears it down and destroys it. I believe on top of everything else she is sadistic.
I know many of us on this site are at different levels with how awful their child's behavior is. When I say awful, I am talking on demonic levels.

Years ago I put my daughter in a mental hospital, she checked herself out the next day. She told me off about it for years calling me all kinds of names. Recently she had posted how awful it is when someone is mentally ill and the family will not do anything to help them. It is truly a lose, lose situation.

I agree Lulu, about not having to live by her rules. My husband is good about keeping the pace and not letting her get to him.
I agree about talking to her and cutting her off when things get heated. The conversation gets heated quickly with her over nothing.
When things get very ugly I will text with her but do not want to talk with her because of her nonstop verbal abuse.
My daughter is exhausting and trying to figure her out is like trying to put pieces of a puzzle together with missing pieces.


I guess the problem again is with me and my expectations. I thought as she gets older, now getting close to 40 that she would mature and some how balance out. The frustration and pain I feel is from my expectations and now from the reality. The reality is she is who she is.
Lulu, I very much appreciate your insights and guidance. I know what you are saying. The problem really is with me, I just want a healthy relationship with someone that is not healthy and I want it so much that it makes me sick. I know how quickly life goes and being a bereaved mother makes me realize this even deeper. I am grateful to have a wonderful intelligent husband that stands strongly by myside and understand our situation. If he never sees our daughter again he would be ok with it. He can deal with it better than I can. We both stay very busy but my heart and mind are with my daughter no matter how hard I try to do other things. I wish it was not so.... Her scattered mixed up drama filled life frightens me and I know there is nothing I can do about it.. I do give it to God..
My daughter's life may feel right to her. Her confusion and turmoil is what is comfortable to her and it maybe feeding her. She may even enjoy living in such a mess, but if that was the case why is she so unhappy? I think some people actually enjoy their unhappiness.
 

overcome mom

Active Member
NewStart I too try not to have expectations of my child but they creep in again when I least expect it. It is usually when I have had a few good interactions with him but then inevitably he has some new crisis, gets in trouble for something. I have found my acceptance of him as he is has transformed over the years. I needed to mourn the lost of who I wanted him to be, what I wanted our relationship to be like. Like any mourning process the feelings of lost come and go. Since I wasn't able to have a biological child I sometimes wonder if I put more expectations on our relationship. I know you have had to mourn the lost of one child and now you have to mourn the lost of your expectations for another. I am sure it seems to much to handle at once. You will get through it and feel better more of time than you do now.
 

newstart

Well-Known Member
Thank you overcome mom. I agree, it is the good times that make us believe it will keep rolling good and then the other shoes falls off and the reality sets in to who they really are. Acceptance is truly the key and I need to work on expecting as it is.
I wish you so much luck with your son. I know you have had your hands full.
One of the reasons this is so hard on me is that my daughter has so much potential. She is very intelligent. The waste of talent is what is causing me so much grief and the idiotic decision to be with a man that is such bad news. I don't know anyone else that can live with her so I am trying to find gratitude in all this.
 

JayPee

Sending good vibes...
It does me good to read these posts. I had not spoken to my oldest son, who is 31 yrs. old for about 8 months. Similar to how you expressed it Newstart, he can so eloquently verbally abuse me and spew venom at me with his words. I had tip toed back into communicating with him, helped him on many, many occasions financially but for the first time required payment back. So approx. 5 months of very careful communication and interaction went on. I felt like it wasn't perfect but it made my heart so happy to know where he was, how he was doing etc. Recently we had a blow out, pretty much because his income tax refund came in (that he owed me) and I truly believe he started a fight just so he felt entitled not to have to pay me back.

This verbal abuse was all via text and my heart felt like it got sucker-punched. What a fool I was and still am. He actually told me he'd block me for a few days because I physically made him sick and was such an imbecile and needed to practice humility. He told me I was so self-righteous etc. All the things he said about me applied to him but he doesn't see it that way. Anyways, I'm sorry for rambling. It's just been heavy on my heart.

My younger, 27 yr. old is working 40 hrs. a week and doing well. I am so grateful.
 

newstart

Well-Known Member
JayPee, You never have to apologize for rambling. I am guilty of it too.;) I am sorry that you have not talked to your son in 8 months. Wish there was a way you could put a tracking device on his car or phone so you can at least feel some relief knowing where he is and that he is still alive.
Each day that goes by is a wasted day, a day we could share a meal or help each other in some way but these disordered adults don't see it the same way. Painful is the understatement. The older we get the more we realize how precious time is. It is just such a sad situation.
 

RN0441

100% better than I was but not at 100% yet
JayPee

I am also sorry of this development however if you look at the silver lining with your younger son and him having a full time job, perhaps this will inspire your older son to get on track also!!

I think that my two older boys strongly influenced our son J when he was on the wrong path. I always KNEW he wanted to be like them and have their approval and now WOW he sure does.

That was buried in him along with all the other goodness in him due to his addiction BUT it was there.

I will pray for you and your sons because that is the absolute best thing that I can do for you.
 

Nomad

Well-Known Member
Sometimes we engage almost to test the waters...and are saddened to see little to nothing has changed.
Then, it’s time to face reality. Keep the boundaries up. Maybe strengthen them. You have gotten verification that it’s not time. The ball is back in your court. The consequences to reaching out without boundaries in place will likely mean pain ...of which you’ve had WAY too much.

I think most, if not all of us, have been to this place.

Maybe , down the road, you will see improvement Newstart.

I’ve seen tiny improvements with our daughter in several areas. Geez do I wish it were more. And when she has bad days/weeks...I stay AWAY.

This being “worn out”
is sooo bad for us. Sorry to be a broken record, but take it from someone with some autoimmune baggage...that will hurt your health and none of us needs that. Eat healthy, watch your weight, take at least a multi vitamin, see a therapist if you feel you need one...do what it takes to feel better. Self Care is vital. These are not just words someone says to be nice or something. Truly, it’s very important you take care of your physical and mental well being.
Blessings.
 

newstart

Well-Known Member
Thank you Nomad for your words of wisdom that I do try to practice. I hope you are doing well and it is good to see you post again.
 
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