Does counseling ever help any of these kids?

In a Word:


NO!


I have developed a PROUND distaste for 90% of the entire profession - most have done my children FAR more harm than good. All kids are not the same however.

 

sisymay-you ask, if this doesn't work, what does? That is a very good question. So far, with my two, nothing has. I don't mean to sound hopeless but I've been dealing with ODD in my older son for at least 16 years. We've done counseling many times, hospitalization in a pediatric psychiatric hospital, positive rewards, negative rewards, behavior modification, behavior charts, living with dad, shelter, group home, Boys Town, psychiatrists, psychologists, etc., etc., etc. I sometimes wonder if we're just trying to pound a square peg into a round hole. I don't mean to suggest that we should give up, or that we should accept things like drug abuse and violence without fighting them every step of the way, but as I look back on my son's problems all of these years I can only think that SOME of the problems might have been avoided if we were not all trying so hard to make him be NORMAL (whatever that is). He has been he!! to live with and he still has major problms with me and does not do well at school in spite of a high IQ, but he functions well at work and seems to get along with the people he wants to get along with. He has a sensible plan in place to try and graduate from high school (barely) and go on to computer school and get a job in that field, for which I think he is very well suited. I don't think he will ever be NORMAL but neither am I. I think, if he decides he wants to, he will be able to be a functioning human being. If he decides he doesn't want to, nothing that I or anybody else can do is going to make a bit of difference. I guess I'm feeling like, in at least some of these cases, we're banging our heads against the same wall over and over without seeing that it's doing no good. I'm not talking about giving up and I'm not talking about accepting self destructive behavior but some of this stuff just no longer seems like a fight worth fighting.

 

[EastCoastChris]

In our difficult child's case, I think talk therapy is useless and proved to be useless. His disorder is neurologically based and he was not able to hear or process anything in the years before puberty. I did have a counselor who came to our home that I called a "life skills counselor". difficult child does not have any ugly things to cause his anger or rage or oppositionality. She worked with problems of anger and what difficult child could do about it. Helped him to visualize and do relaxation techniques. Talked to him about his demands and complaints. It was a safe person for him to go to. It worked well but the counselors boss wouldn't let her stay on,because she and I seemed to really hit it off. Thought it was a conflict of interest(how weird is that?)
The only way I would agree to counseling is if there were stated and agreed goals. Ex)anger management with a 3mo review of how well we were getting to those goals.
I am very guarded about open ended counseling.

 

[Faithful-Heart]

Fran what do you mean by 'open ended counseling"...I am just wondering what that means. Nate did the play therapy which showed he had alot of anger but the therapist couldn't figure out why or from what. Now he has a different therapist that to me acts so nervous herself she can't find the right words to say half the time. Hopefully she is more relaxed when I am not in the room. She plays feeling type cards and board games with Nate...lessons on good things, bad things. Facial expressions, ect.
Now she wants me to do a Tic Tac Toe chart with Nate..giving him happy faces if he does certain things 90% of the time...blah!

I don't like charts....to me its like teaching a dog to sit by giving it a dog bone when it does it. I have yet to hear of anyone saying these charts work. Right off the bat as soon as she said she wanted Nate to do a chart...brushing teeth..minding mother (lol), picking up toys..ect...his very FIRST response was...what do I get? blah!

 

[ahall]

I'm not sure - "the jury is still out". LOL. My son's therapist when he was first diagnosed with Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) made remarkable progress with him. He made him conscious of all his obsessions and compulsions and tried to work with him on them. Downfall - difficult child began smoking marijuana, and therapist was totally in the dark, as were husband and I. That was back when difficult child was just turning 14.

The therapist he had when he entered the Residential Treatment Center (RTC) in August was fabulous. She and difficult child seemed to bond instantly. I think she was making tremendous progress in making difficult child see that he was responsible for his actions - something he would never admit to. She was a "take no crap" kind of person - and I think that was good for my son. She took another position at the facility - a promotion. She is now responsible for more of the overall picture, rather than being a therapist to 7 boys. difficult child still visits her there, and they still have long talks. His new therapist seems to have taken a bit longer to bond with my son, and I don't think he is as tough with him - but I think the trust is building slowly. Because difficult child was already drug-free when this therapist took over, I'm not sure he realizes the severity of difficult child's addiction, or how low he had sunk.

In talking with my son about his addiction, and my fears for his returning to high school next year - he assures me he is working on his attitude and how to cope with his feelings better.

So ... the jury is still out on the therapy my son has been receiving. I can only hope that it has helped.

Hugs,
Deb

 

[EastCoastChris]

Julie, "open ended therapy" would be just having counseling with no real goal. Just talk therapy. How do you decide whether that is helping or not? It is just money and time unless the goal is stated up front with occasional evaluations between parent and counselor as to whether the problem is improving or not.

 

[tornasunder]

I am extremely interested in the approach Jess's psychiatrist seems to be taking.
My only experience before has been lots of involvement with one for Chrissie when she took part in a study of risperidal. Lots of spin off from that, very helpful. But not therapy. Then the others I have used - the 15 mins and try this pill sort.
I don't have any time for therapy for kids, the talkie stuff. If it's around a specific issue, like sexual abuse, then a good one could probably help the child.
But this approach - we were there for three hours and go again next week. He seems to be looking for a diagnosis for her, and though has not rxed yet, he may do so. I don't know. I sense that I can trust him not to jump to any rapid conclusions, to look at the whole picture.
I am interested in the fact he seems to be using psychology as well as psychiatry. This makes sense to me ... she will see a psychologist but not for therapy unless it is recommended ... it will first be for educational testing, then maybe for an assessment if necessary ... but I get the feeling, since the psychiatrist wants to talk with the psychologist, that it could be a combined pooling of info around test results, possible dxes, etc. Then I would think some recommendations.
I like what I sense this approach is going to be. It makes sense. At first I thought there was a crossover which I did not understand when the psychiatrist seemed to be doing some stuff with Jess that I would have expected from a therapist.
But to do both makes perfect sense. I like the idea of a psychiatrist mixing some therapy into his approach ... it's refreshing.
But my answer to talk therapy for a child who sees nothing wrong with the way he/she is, and cannot understand the concepts, is still no.
Loved a comment up there about marriage guidance therapy. We ran into trouble due the stress of Chrissie - I ran even faster after our first and only session. I could see it was going to make things worse. Might work for some but was NOT for us!!!

Addie

 

[CJ]

In all of the therapists we have been to, only ONE has helped. This one was a difficult child himself so he knows all of the games that can be played. He also recommended Tough Love to us. We are working on detaching and letting our difficult child learn from his own mistakes. It's hard for a parent to do but it is working. I would say our difficult child is about 60 percent better than before we found this counselor.

Good luck to you,
Kim

 

[JulieD]

If there are any new members reading this who are considering getting therapy for their child, I hope you continue seeking that help and not let the fact that it has not been successful for others discourage you. Therapy, and yes even taking therapy, can be enormousely helpful. I think talking therapy is most helpful for those children who are dealing with issues in their past. My daughter has adoption issues that she was able to talk about with her therapist.

Many people enter therapy thinking they do not have a problem. Like I said above, if you start a child into therapy at an early age the unwillingness to particpate is a non issue at least at that age. They may not know how to participate but they go because you bring them. A good therapist is able to draw them out most times. I looked long and hard for a therapist that was willing to tackle the issues my daughter was dealing with, her anger, her impulsiveness, her lack of control, etc. I did not want someone who would just put a bandaid on those things to have them rear their ugly heads in the future.

Perhaps we need more good therapists out there who actually know how to help our children rather than looking for a diagnosis which often changes as often as the therapist does.

Nancy

 

difficult child's been in counseling once a week for over a year -- play therapy actually. His psychologist actually gets down in the floor and plays with him in this large play room (they even have a sand box in there -- dedicated people I say ). He looks forward to going -- it's "an event." We go to McDonalds either before or after the session (depending on time allowance). It's a routine.

As far as helping difficult child -- I'm not sure. However, it's done no harm. When he first went into treatment, husband and I had sessions at the same time (unknowingly at first -- kinda funny how that happened).

difficult child's behavior in school is what lead us to seek outside help. We had done all we could -- difficult child was definately in need of help at school -- totally out of control. I had read everything I could get my hands on about ADHD and abused and neglected children by this point. Had stumbled across The Voucher System behavior mgmt program and had that in place. Had started difficult child's lifebook which includes his birthmom in case that was a problem. And I hadn't found this board -- I was drowning on now what to do? what to do?

husband and I appeared to be somewhat of a challenge to the therapist. Marriage good, parents back each other up in discplining, already knew about behavior mgmt, providing stable home and consistency for difficult child, yada, yada, yada. I asked outright if it was their opinon that we were the problem and, if so, how could we adjust our behavior to the benefit of difficult child. I asked them if they had any suggestions at all on how we could further help our son. The answer was, "You're doing everything you can. Just keep on doing it. The emotional problems are just going to take time. He didn't get that was overnight, and you're not going to fix him overnight." I needed to hear that from a third party. I kept thinking we must be doing something wrong.

Because of the way young children express themselves -- or don't, I'm not sure how talk therapy would be of much benefit. But cumulatively, every smidgen of help is beneficial in my opinion. It probably could work well with young children that have a good handle on expression. For instance, Friday my mom and I went to pick up difficult child from day care. On the way home, Mother and I were chattering. difficult child says, "You are talking TOO much." It kind of startled Mom. I had automatically interpreted what difficult child said -- Mom didn't understand. I said, "difficult child, that sounded a little rude. When you want to ask a question and adults are talking, remember to touch me on the shoulder or just say "Mommy" once -- you know I'll get back to you when there's a break in the conversation. But I thank you very much for remembering not to just butt-in." (Some social graces are starting to be absorbed.) No one but husband and I can really "interpret," and husband's not too good at it. I miss things sometimes too.

difficult child will only talk to me about what happened to him when he lived with his birthmom -- and that is strictly in his own time. I don't need a mental health professional to tell me he has his feelings "locked." They probably call it repressed -- but I'm telling you they are locked and until he's ready to talk about it nobody will be able to pry it out with a crow bar.

I feel that all the bad feelings he has will bubble over some day. I'm hoping that it's sooner rather than later. His psychologist is excellent -- I'm very pleased with her. She and difficult child have a very good relationship -- course, he thinks she's just a "big" playmate.

I've recently given her a copy of difficult child's lifebook. It has little stories in it about how difficult child came to be with us. (Non-accusatory of birthmom.) Same style of story format continue's subsequent to him arriving here. We're hopeful this will give the psychologist "a way in" as she put it.

Overall, I think if everything is just right (personality matches, psychologist competence, etc) counseling can be a good thing for emotional and self-esteem problems. I also think it can be a disaster if there is not a good match between client and counselor.

Depending on the severity of disorders, I think it's possible a counselor can be instrumental in expressing things in a different way thereby allowing the child better understands it.

But it's also my opinion that there's likely little benefit to counseling when the problem is a disorder, i.e., all the counseling in the world will not help a parapelegic to learn to walk. But it can help Mom and Dad to understand what's going on and do as much as they can to directing the child toward accomplishing as much as they can in life.

 

[rbakers]

Well, all, looks like I am bucking a trend here, but I've got to say....
Yes.

It does help some of them.
Helped 2 ( 1 difficult child, 1 difficult child/easy child)of mine; 3rd one (Mostly-easy child teen, going thru some major behavioural & attitude S#*!) , wasn't having ANY of it!

I truly think it's a lot like the medicate-or-not issue. Medication is helping my difficult child & difficult child/easy child in a major way. But it took some messing about with different medications/doses to get it right, and lots of frustration in between; times when I just wanted to yell, "OK ENOUGH! I've paid $283.00 for a medication I am gonna have to throw out now??? AAWWWK!! Y'all are nutz, and I am not gonna do this any more!!!"

But. Without medications, RK would not be able to work, would have huge behavioural issues, would be self-medicating with everything from pot to meth to heroin, and would also,based on his past history,probably be homeless.
Without her medications, Miss Mousie would in all likelihood still be cutting herself, having debilitating panic attacks, be in throes of depression, and insomniac to the Nth degree.

Without her extremely savvy therapist, she would have no safe place to go, to talk about all the stuff that would potentially freak out me or husband.

JMO.
Blondie

 

[JulieD]

Blondie,

I bucked the trend before you. It's nice to have company. I was getting lonely.

Nancy

 

Mmmm -- my post must not be clear. Overall, I think counseling is a good thing. Our experience has been good and we are optomistic it will ultimately achieve it's full purpose over time.

We don't expect it to "cure" things that are a result of his disorder like difficult child's hyperactivity. We do expect him to be counceled by psychologist as to how best to self-monitor and self-control his hyperactivity. We do expect her to be instrumental in dealing with his emotional issues -- but we understand it may take a long while -- because difficult child's not ready to deal with it yet and resists any type discussion with-her. Until he's ready, she'll learn as much as she can through his playing.

If I didn't feel like we would be successful with-this counselor -- I'd seek out another in a heartbeat.

 

[Raoul]

My son has been very successful with his counselor of 5 years! He was his therapist when he went into the Residential Treatment Center (RTC) then sees him on outpatient basis! He is the only reason my son has been able to change. He is dedicated to difficult child & goes above & beyond his duties!

He is the only one out of many that difficult child respects! He talks to difficult child & difficult child tries to work on that issue! I thank God that we met him & he is still here!


Pam

 

[kbcamil]

In the beginning the therapist we went to diagnosed adhd in him at 6 yo and then I had some questions like if he swears or uses bad words or certain slang is it better for me to ignore it or yell,or punish and she said do not allow any of it and rewards work better than punishement. She also said they can play with other adhd kids as long as they are not the only kids he plays with. And also have him sit next to focused kids and be around kids with good behavior, Modeling and imitating.
When I sat in on talk therapy between her and the other counselor I realized it would not be that useful as they were saying to him the same things I was saying.
It has been more worthwhile for us to see a very good child and adolescent psychiatrist who treats
250 kids and is now no longer accepting new patients and we were the last ones to be accepted. He has such respect for the parents and the child and he is so available to us to discuss my child's progress if there are any side effects to medications or if we need re-val d/t worsening of symtoms.He is so committed to these kids it is awesome.To tell you the truth d/t finding this dr and knowing that I may never again find some one who is that good I am not moving from my current location which I have wanted to do. He has had that much of an impct in our lives. We do no talk therapy with him aside from a question or two. He has made it clear to me from the beginning he is the medicine man. At first it seemed cold but it is honest.

 

Counseling is a critical part of therapy. However, as most of you so eloquently stated, how this is done isn't always effective. I guess one has to ask is this therapist competent or not? Dunno. I think counseling CAN work IF the therapist is knowledgeable and reputable. That's a big IF, by the way. I took younger son to a therapist only to have this idiot tell me he is Tourette's Syndrome (NOT!!!!! got a friend who's son is-Craig is NOTHING like this child!). Needless to say, we did not return to that man. I think the problem here is the parents are more knowledgeable than the so-called experts. That's sad! This goes back to the societal attitudes that dominate our communities. We KNOW these disorders exist but we don't know how to deal with them and it seems there is no where to turn. Hmmmmmmmmm Well, do the best you can do and that's all you can do. And, I'm sorry to say this, some of these kids may have to hit rock bottom before waking up.

 

I've been watching this thread with interest.

Some difficult children are more responsive and receptive than others, and therapy should NEVER be dismissed...it should always be included in the total treatment plan for a difficult child, right from the beginning. The younger, the better. If you've never tried it, then it's something you really have to try, because that's the only way to assess if your child is one of the receptive ones.

Our experience through the years has been one of mixed success. From the age of five through the age of eight, therapy was wonderful for my difficult child.

My difficult child is now fifteen. He eats therapists for breakfast.

He can latch on to a therapists' technique in less than ten minutes of talking, I've see him do it...and the rest of the session and any sessions thereafter are pure manipulation on difficult children part.

Not only does he say just what the therapist wants to hear....but he persists in answering questions with questions, and working and manipulating every question until it is shredded beyond recognition and the therapist is sweating with frustration.

On the way home he laughs and chortles about how he worked the therapist over.... it's a point of pride with him to make his therapists uncomfortable, and manipulate them on as many points as possible. It makes me feel angry and sad at the same time.

Up until the age of seven, my son enjoyed his therapy visits and derived a great deal of strength from them. But when he hit the age of eight, the tenor of the visits started to change...difficult child started playing control games and was no longer interested in talking and learning.

We've pretty much come to the conclusion now that therapy is no longer effective for him.

Beleive me, we've tried to find a therapist with whom he will establish an honest communication..it's been a fruitless excercise of amusing fun for difficult child and wasted money for us.

I should point out that our experience is not the typical one. My difficult child is somewhat eccentric....he has a sky high IQ (estimated to be in the 180 range), and can take control of the session away from the therapist and give it to himself with amazing speed, and will continue to play push/ pull throughout the session.

What gives one therapist an edge over another for the ability to communicate with a child? I know some folks might disagree with me, but from what I've seen over the years, I think same sex therapists work better....and younger therapists work better than older therapists.

 

[wendie]

Very interesting thread, although I'm not surprised with the responses. Someone said...if therapy doesn't work, what then? Well, if you can figure that out, you're a billionaire.

Outside of very young children, I think this falls under the premise of "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink." We lead our son to many waterholes over the years...some big, some small. Some private, some very public. Some involved us, some didn't. In the end, none of them worked because HE wasn't willing to face or make any changes. At a certain age, your ability to force change becomes ZERO. That is a very early age with most kids.

I think there is a gut feeling among most parents of pre-teens, teens that lets us know there level of willingness to cooperate. My gut feeling has always been zero willingness, and was supported by years of us painfully dragging out our sorrid history in front of strangers that were ultimately not able to help a child who was not willing to work with anyone. This became increasingly difficult over time for my husband and I.

You know your child's willingness to work. If you feel that they truly want to make a change - go for it at all costs.

Deb

 

[Al's Mom]

Originally posted by starborn64:

My son told me today, at breakfast, he's so tired of answering questions. (I snickered) Then he said "Does anyone ever consider the fact that I might just be angry because I'm trying to forget bad stuff and all these counselors are dragging it up? Mom, honest I'm so tired of being questioned on everything! Like, "Gee, why did you throw you floss in the wastebasket like that? Are you mad? - I mean can't a guy even throw his floss away without being analyzed?? I'm tired of answering questions"

I quoted this because for anyone (child or adult) with a diagnosis of PTSD, this is a common reaction. I think therapy has to be an individual choice, when they are ready to deal with all the many various feelings that it will dredge up.

I know for me, having to deal with my own traumatic past in therapy was almost as horrifying as the abuse itself. I can't begin to imagine how it must be for a child.

As to the original question, I think counseling in the traditional sense is a waste. Most of our kids are too young to understand the concept behind "talk therapy" and most tdocs don't understand that setting "goals" are meaningless. In most cases, we are dealing with neurobiological disorders and setting goals isn't going to change anything.

The most benefit I got out of any type of "therapy" was from a behaviorist that worked with our family for a short period of time. This enabled us to see what some of my son's triggers were (even tho I thought I knew most of them). By doing this, we were able to try and head off some of his rages and then come up with a behavior plan that we all could live with.

We also got some benefit from art therapy. My son is very artistic and uses this as a form of expression because he has so much trouble putting how he is feeling into words.

I think, like with everything else, we need to stop trying to shove our kids into the "box" that the system is constantly trying to shove them into. What works for one isn't going to work for the next and vice versa. If it's not working, then try to find something that is. There are many types of "therapy" availabe other then "talk" therapy.

 

Just had to answer this thread with a heartfelt "NO". After 8 years of therapy, in three states with too many too count therapists, counselors, etc., it has a accomplished nothing. Of course, neither have multiple medications, multiple hospitalizations, Residential Treatment Center (RTC), or jail. If the kid doesn't see a problem, it does no good at all!!!